Why are the Orthodox being taught this? [Moved from OBOB]

[benedictaoo]

I'm not entirely clear what anti-Catholic means. All i care is that you are careful with that phrase because my view regarding the OP of this thread is probalby more on the "anti-Catholic" side as you labelled it, but I am assuming from your later posts that in spite of that you do not consider me Anti-Catholic just as I don't consider you anti-Orthodox. If that's clear, then that's all I care about.

Josh

I don't consider you to be anti Catholic and you were the furthest from my mind when I posted that.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

What about other sucessors to Peter in other Sees Peter founded?

if you look at those early Church quotes I posted, they're saying Christ founded a single "cathedra" or "chair" of St Peter, through which unity in the Church is preserved and this is related to Peter being the "rock" and "reigning in his successors" (another early Church quote).

God bless

 

[Rhamiel]

Can you clarify what you mean? This is something I've always not clearly understood.

if a King set up a dukedom, lets say Duke of Ohio, all of the dukes children would be royalty but only one would assume the office of Duke of Ohio
so while there are many Sees that St.Peter founded, only one did this special role of "first among equals" pass too

Are we TAWers alone in seeing futility of the "we got the name" argument? I cling to the hope that we are not. Can most of us agree that this is an argument that should never come up in ecumenical talk not because it's offensive but because it proves nothing either way?

oh yes, I have no problem calling the Eastern Orthodox Church the Eastern Orthodox Church even though i believe the EOs teaching on the Pope and Purgatory are very unorthodox, you guys are the Orthodox Church and we should be polite, now sometimes i use "Eastern Orthodox" rather then just Orthodox because there are also Oriental Orthodox so I like to show that there is a differance
also, I have no problem with the name "Roman Catholic" that is a common name for my Church, I call it simply the Catholic Church, but if others want to call us Roman Catholic I have no right to be offended because greater Catholics then I have called it "Roman Catholic"

now I do get offended when we are called "Romans" or "the Roman Church" i mean a little respect is nice, so many people (not you) are very disrespectful, I mean, if you can not call us Catholics, or atleast Roman Catholics, then really, why bother even talking to us?

 

[Thekla]

if a King set up a dukedom, lets say Duke of Ohio, all of the dukes children would be royalty but only one would assume the office of Duke of Ohio
so while there are many Sees that St.Peter founded, only one did this special role of "first among equals" pass too

oh yes, I have no problem calling the Eastern Orthodox Church the Eastern Orthodox Church even though i believe the EOs teaching on the Pope and Purgatory are very unorthodox, you guys are the Orthodox Church and we should be polite, now sometimes i use "Eastern Orthodox" rather then just Orthodox because there are also Oriental Orthodox so I like to show that there is a differance
also, I have no problem with the name "Roman Catholic" that is a common name for my Church, I call it simply the Catholic Church, but if others want to call us Roman Catholic I have no right to be offended because greater Catholics then I have called it "Roman Catholic"

now I do get offended when we are called "Romans" or "the Roman Church" i mean a little respect is nice, so many people (not you) are very disrespectful, I mean, if you can not call us Catholics, or atleast Roman Catholics, then really, why bother even talking to us?

I'm unsure why the term "Roman Catholic" is offensive ... I thought the term reflected the location of seat of the See ...

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm unsure why the term "Roman Catholic" is offensive ... I thought the term reflected the location of seat of the See ...

I don't find the term "Roman Catholic" offensive, but I don't like how some refer to us as just the "Romans" or the "Roman Church" (without the word Catholic).

But "Roman Catholic" might be inaccurate if you're talking about the Catholic Church as a whole, because it contains different rites.. or if you're talking about an Eastern Catholic

God bless

 

[Macarius]

What I never personally understood is the EO acknowledging him as the first among equals or giving him some honorary title.

what would be the point in that? Him being the 'head' only as an honorary title that holds no real authority or power?

It's like a senate-majority leader. Still a senator, but for 90%+ of the votes, everyone just follows their lead. Senators aren't required to follow that lead though.

The honorary title creates harmony for all the small stuff. For the most part, that lead is followed. But in a real crisis, we resort to a full council. The president of that council would be the highest ranking bishop (so even their they have some ability to control / set / influence the agenda and proceedings), but each bishop represents their diocese, and their authority there is sacrosanct as they are the icon of Christ.

 

[Philothei]

Bottom line we should not be offended with any name as most of the time it is due to historical references. Not to mean as a derogatory expression.

Using Roman Catholicism in an academic setting is a necessity to differentiate what scholars are trying to classify. But to use it for one or as a 'cut" is a different story. Historically the Roman Catholic Church is the "basis" for what is called Catholicism today. Actually I would like to call everyone "Christian" for a change

The Christian Apostolic church of the East and the one of the West. "why catholic" and "orthodox" we are first of all Christians guys To me the "east" and "west" signify different traditions... and the Christian signifies we are the same as far as our basic Christian beliefs. Sometimes I use this in conversations as it defines the difference in the traditions. That way I avoid the "sterotyping" for both traditions

Makes sense?

 

[Thekla]

I don't find the term "Roman Catholic" offensive, but I don't like how some refer to us as just the "Romans" or the "Roman Church" (without the word Catholic).

But "Roman Catholic" might be inaccurate if you're talking about the Catholic Church as a whole, because it contains different rites.. or if you're talking about an Eastern Catholic

God bless

So it seems that the "Roman" in "Roman Catholic" refers to the Rite, not to the See and the relationship to the chair of Peter ...

thanks

Is there a Roman Rite Mass ?

 

[Philothei]

I think it is the same as the Latin rite...

Only St. Gregory the Dialogos is responsible for the liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts

Brilliant theologian BTW and saint of both our churches

Even Roman he had a great knowledge of Greek

Do you guys use his liturgy of the pre-sanctified gifts??

 

[Rhamiel]

So it seems that the "Roman" in "Roman Catholic" refers to the Rite, not to the See and the relationship to the chair of Peter ...

thanks

Is there a Roman Rite Mass ?

really i think it boils down to people getting offended overly easily
it is popular to call the Church the Catholic Church to down play the centrality of the Papacy and to play up the importance of the Eastern Rites
it is 1 part propaganda 2 parts theology
I just call it the Catholic Church but I do not really mind Roman Catholic because that is a common name

 

[LivingWordUnity]

It is the official position of the EO, the OO, and the majority of the Protestant denominations that the Roman Catholic Church is "not catholic," either in the sense that they are not the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" or that they do not constitute the entirety of it. It is the position of the "EO" that we are the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" which Christ founded.

As for the title of "Catholic," it would be misleading in the modern world for me to self-identify as "a Catholic." It would not be for me to be identified as "a catholic Christian," "orthodox catholic," or "Orthodox Catholic Christian." Just because the Roman Church grasped the proper adjective "Catholic" in the modern world doesn't mean that other groups will not disagree with the appropriateness of the title for the Roman Church nor will it cause them to cease their own use and understanding of themselves as the "catholic Church." I'm sure the Roman Church considers itself "orthodox," does it not?

I do understand the need to stress this point though, and I personally thank you for being steadfast and consistent in your beliefs.

I don't expect you to accept what I say because if you did you would have to be a Catholic. So, I won't try to argue with you. Instead, I hope that one day the two lungs of East and West will join again together. But it seems like the closer we are to each other the more resistance there is to unity.

 

[Philothei]

I don't expect you to accept what I say because if you did you would have to be a Catholic. So, I won't try to argue with you. Instead, I hope that one day the two lungs of East and West will join again together. But it seems like the closer we are to each other the more resistance there is to unity.

As long as we understand the why's of that resistance...and do not attribute it to the one "lung" only we are fine

 

[Thekla]

I don't expect you to accept what I say because if you did you would have to be a Catholic. So, I won't try to argue with you. Instead, I hope that one day the two lungs of East and West will join again together. But it seems like the closer we are to each other the more resistance there is to unity.

Are the OO included in the "other lung" ?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

So it seems that the "Roman" in "Roman Catholic" refers to the Rite, not to the See and the relationship to the chair of Peter ...

thanks

that's the way I've understood it

"Catholic" refers to the See and relationship to chair of Peter

if the Pope would someday leave Rome, he would still be the Pope

Is there a Roman Rite Mass ?

Latin Rite yes, it's separate from the Eastern rite liturgies, which are more similar (if not same) to the Orthodox. There are also other Eastern liturgies that have different origins.

God bless

 

[prodromos]

I don't find the term "Roman Catholic" offensive, but I don't like how some refer to us as just the "Romans" or the "Roman Church" (without the word Catholic).

But "Roman Catholic" might be inaccurate if you're talking about the Catholic Church as a whole, because it contains different rites.. or if you're talking about an Eastern Catholic

God bless

Christ is Risen!

Given that the Latin rite makes up slightly more than 98% of the Catholic Church and the Eastern rites slightly less than 2%, I think it is fair to assume that the vast majority of people's experience with the Catholic Church will be with the 'Roman' Catholics. So is it really acceptable for Catholics to get their nose out of joint over the expression "Roman Catholic"?

John

 

[Montalban]

if you look at those early Church quotes I posted, they're saying Christ founded a single "cathedra" or "chair" of St Peter, through which unity in the Church is preserved and this is related to Peter being the "rock" and "reigning in his successors" (another early Church quote).

God bless

The quote I posted said that the three Sees were the "See of One"

They were all Chairs of Peter... is that not how you understand it?

Also, as to 'rock', aren't we all called to be 'rock' as Peter was? I do recall that the Apostles together are said to be the 'foundation' of the church, with Jesus as the 'cheif cornerstone'.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

If the two lungs of the Church would become one again it would change the world.

 

[Philothei]

If the two lungs of the Church would become one again it would change the world.

 

[Etsi]

I don't find the term "Roman Catholic" offensive, but I don't like how some refer to us as just the "Romans" or the "Roman Church" (without the word Catholic).

But "Roman Catholic" might be inaccurate if you're talking about the Catholic Church as a whole, because it contains different rites.. or if you're talking about an Eastern Catholic

God bless

Roman Catholic as in those of the Church whose Patriarch is located in Rome (or Ruled from Rome...not sure how to phrase). Just as there are those that are Greek Orthodox, not because they are in Greece, but because they are under the Greek Patriarch (or the Russian Patriarch, etc.).

It is not meant to be offensive. Unfortunately, there are some that choose to take it that way (and I'm not referring to you, but rather to a couple of run ins at Catholic Forums).

 

[Etsi]

if a King set up a dukedom, lets say Duke of Ohio, all of the dukes children would be royalty but only one would assume the office of Duke of Ohio
so while there are many Sees that St.Peter founded, only one did this special role of "first among equals" pass too

oh yes, I have no problem calling the Eastern Orthodox Church the Eastern Orthodox Church even though i believe the EOs teaching on the Pope and Purgatory are very unorthodox, you guys are the Orthodox Church and we should be polite, now sometimes i use "Eastern Orthodox" rather then just Orthodox because there are also Oriental Orthodox so I like to show that there is a differance
also, I have no problem with the name "Roman Catholic" that is a common name for my Church, I call it simply the Catholic Church, but if others want to call us Roman Catholic I have no right to be offended because greater Catholics then I have called it "Roman Catholic"

now I do get offended when we are called "Romans" or "the Roman Church" i mean a little respect is nice, so many people (not you) are very disrespectful, I mean, if you can not call us Catholics, or atleast Roman Catholics, then really, why bother even talking to us?

I don't think that those that say "the Roman Church" are trying to be offensive or intentionally leave out "Catholic". The Orthodox also sometimes get asked if they go to "the Russian Church" or "the Greek Church". This doesn't mean they are intentionally leaving out "Orthodox". In fact, when I first attended "the Greek Church" in town, they noted how many children I had and that I wasn't Greek...the next thing I was asked was shouldn't I be at "the Irish Church?" ("the Irish Church" is the older term for the Roman Catholic Church...which I think is predominantly hispanic locally now LOL!)