Why are so many people so bad?

[quatona]

taking God out of the equation, no, there is no objective bad.

You are invited to show how the existence of a God would solve that problem.

 

[Oseas]

Assessing his statement is not the same thing as making a moral judgment.

Yes, the mere assessing of his statement does not mean nothing until this moment, so much so that you initially agreed with what he, THE W, said, but your spirit tried to nullify what he said by making your judgment.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Might doesn't make anything, it just means one can act without personal consequence. It has nothing to do with weather that action was harmful to others or not.

we're not discussing whether or not something is harmful. we're discussing whether or not something is right or wrong and why. consensus of opinion is not an objective determination of anything.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

So?

so you have no basis to make any objective moral claim.

which means, if you see a man brutally raping a child and you say that its wrong, all you have done is expressed your own personal opinion.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

You are invited to show how the existence of a God would solve that problem.

God is the creator of all things and is the only one who has the right to define what He created and determine how it is to function.

 

[bhsmte]

God is the creator of all things and is the only one who has the right to define what He created and determine how it is to function.

Opinion.

 

[ananda]

This is a serious question. Let's pretend, for the sake of this thread, that there is no spiritual realm and there was no Fall. What reason do people give for the abundance of bad people? Thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers, etc. It's rife, and it's non-stop. In the absence of a spiritual realm, why are so many people so bad?

It depends on how you define "bad".

I define "bad people" as those who act in various ways from aversion or attachment as a result of ignorance.

Thieves burgle because they act from attachment (e.g. to material goods; love for someone they're trying to impress; etc.) or aversion (e.g. to perceived self-poverty; to hatred of someone and their wealth; etc.) as a result of ignorance: their wisdom is clouded and they can only see the short term positives, and not the long term negatives.

Same goes for liars, predators, murderers.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Opinion.

what is opinion? that god exists(another topic) or that the person who created the universe has sole right to define what they have created?

 

[bhsmte]

what is opinion? that god exists(another topic) or that the person who created the universe has sole right to define what they have created?

Without facts to establish your claim, they are both opinions.

 

[Freodin]

we're not discussing whether or not something is harmful. we're discussing whether or not something is right or wrong and why. consensus of opinion is not an objective determination of anything.

"Defining" is also not an objective determination of anything.

What you describe is not "objective", but "authoritative". Accept that.

Christianity is an authoritarian moral system. There is nothing to determine "right or wrong" except "God said so". Even personal opinions and "consensus" among those who interprete what they call "God's word" becomes ultimately "God said so".

It is the worst moral system available to humans.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

There is nothing to determine "right or wrong" except "God said so".

unless you're going to claim that the person who made everything doesn't have the right to define what they created i don't see your point.

It is the worst moral system available to humans.

now this is an opinion.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Without facts to establish your claim, they are both opinions.

the creator being able to define their creation isn't opinion. it logically follows.

 

[bhsmte]

the creator being able to define their creation isn't opinion. it logically follows.

That would depend on the skill and powers of this assummed creator. I dont see any facts to establish this.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

That would depend on the skill and powers of this assummed creator. I dont see any facts to establish this.

you're now going from whether a creator has the right to define their creation to whether or not the creator exists. the latter is not the topic of discussion.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

"Defining" is also not an objective determination of anything.

when speaking of the claims of finite created beings, this is correct.

God is not a finite created being.

 

[Christie insb]

This is a serious question. Let's pretend, for the sake of this thread, that there is no spiritual realm and there was no Fall. What reason do people give for the abundance of bad people? Thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers, etc. It's rife, and it's non-stop. In the absence of a spiritual realm, why are so many people so bad?

Well

This is a serious question. Let's pretend, for the sake of this thread, that there is no spiritual realm and there was no Fall. What reason do people give for the abundance of bad people? Thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers, etc. It's rife, and it's non-stop. In the absence of a spiritual realm, why are so many people so bad?

Well here is my naturalistic explanation. As infants, humans rely on the care of a stable adult to meet their needs. If that person is sick and can't get to the baby when it is need, if the mom has a mental illness, if the baby is in pain from an ear infection and the mom is not able to relieve the pain, the baby does not develop empathy. The child grows up feeling uncared for and never learns to care for others. We are a social species but sometimes we don't behave in a socially acceptable manner.

Of course the lack of love and caring the mother shows her child often has to do with the lack of caring she received as a baby, whose mother also had a less than ideal upbringing, etc., sort of like original sin.

As a Christian I feel like there is more going on, and we are a very complex species because we are made in the image of our Creator. We are made to love and be loved. And God is in the love we share with each other.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, the mere assessing of his statement does not mean nothing until this moment, so much so that you initially agreed with what he, THE W, said, but your spirit tried to nullify what he said by making your judgment.

So unless I agree with what he says "my spirit is trying to nullify what he said"?

Is that what you think?

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

This is a serious question. Let's pretend, for the sake of this thread, that there is no spiritual realm and there was no Fall. What reason do people give for the abundance of bad people? Thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers, etc. It's rife, and it's non-stop. In the absence of a spiritual realm, why are so many people so bad?

I think you are asking the wrong question.

The world is as it always was. Humans are born as dependent need machines. Initially, we are helpless and quite selfish. Feed me NOW! Change me NOW! Comfort me NOW!

The people we regard as "bad" are people who violate the rules, rules which they have to be taught and socialized to accept. For the majority, we slowly learn and accept that in order to have our needs met, we need to follow certain rules.

But what if you aren't taught this properly? What if your needs aren't met by obeying the rules? The rules are artificial, a social construct - so once people perceive that the rules don't work for them personally, some abandon them.

The world is no worse now than it ever was. It is likely that it is less cruel and brutal than it used to be, but now complete strangers know each others business thousands of miles apart. The world only seems more filled with bad because we are less isolated than before.

 

[Freodin]

unless you're going to claim that the person who made everything doesn't have the right to define what they created i don't see your point.

"Having the right" is a meaningless concept in this case... and a very telling one, I would say.

A "creator", in the sense of God, the creator who creates from "nothing" and is not beholden to anything, wouldn't "have the right" to create as they please... it would be an inevitable attribute of such a creator. Just as gravity does not "have the right" to pull you downwards... it just does.

But there are several philosophical problems with such an approach.
First, exactly because the creator is not "bound" by anything, any definition he gave would necessarily be arbitrary, and thus basically meaningless.

Second, such a creator would necessarily be responsible for everything: good and bad. There is no space for "free will" in such a system. Creation is just a vast sandbox for God and his toys. The ultimate answer to the original question: "Why are so many people so bad" would be "because God created it in this way".

Third, because every definition is arbitrary, there really is no way to distinguish between "good" and "bad". Everything is "God said so"... and without a direct, instantaneous word of God, there is no way for a human to make the distinction. And even then, humans would ultimately need to make the distinction: now is this the word of God, or is it not?

And that without any reliable guidelines. Every definition is arbitrary. The only authority is "God said so". God can say he does not lie. God can say that everything he says is the truth. God can define that even if he contradicts himself, he is right. God can define that he never contradicts himself and he always contradicts himself. God is not bound by logic.

Fourth, there is ultimately no space of either "good" or "bad" in such a system.
If these terms mean anything at all, they are always related to some idea of "ought" and "ought not".
But in reality, these concepts are meaningless. There is only "is" and "is not".
If something "ought not" to be... it is not. If the creator creates something that ought not to be, he contradicts his own will.

now this is an opinion.

It is demonstrably unreliable, arbitrary, unrealistic and open to abuse. There is nothing worse.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

"Having the right" is a meaningless concept in this case.

it has meaning in relation to our perceived right to tell God He cannot make things the way He did and define them the way He did.

A "creator", in the sense of God, the creator who creates from "nothing" and is not beholden to anything, wouldn't "have the right" to create as they please... it would be an inevitable attribute of such a creator.

potato potawto

i believe others have pointed out God creating based upon his eternal and immutable nature

Just as gravity does not "have the right" to pull you downwards... it just does.

i'd say it "has the ability" or "has the function"

First, exactly because the creator is not "bound" by anything, any definition he gave would necessarily be arbitrary, and thus basically meaningless.

only if you don't allow God to define His own creation.

Second, such a creator would necessarily be responsible for everything: good and bad. There is no space for "free will" in such a system. Creation is just a vast sandbox for God and his toys. The ultimate answer to the original question: "Why are so many people so bad" would be "because God created it in this way".

aha! a calvinist!

james 1:13-15 would deal with your closing comment in this paragraph

Third, because every definition is arbitrary, there really is no way to distinguish between "good" and "bad".

you must be on your knees when you beg the question

Everything is "God said so"... and without a direct, instantaneous word of God, there is no way for a human to make the distinction. And even then, humans would ultimately need to make the distinction: now is this the word of God, or is it not?

submitting to the authority of God the Creator is bad....got it

we are called to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

And that without any reliable guidelines. Every definition is arbitrary. The only authority is "God said so". God can say he does not lie. God can say that everything he says is the truth. God can define that even if he contradicts himself, he is right. God can define that he never contradicts himself and he always contradicts himself. God is not bound by logic.

false.

If God says He does not lie than He has bound himself to that and he will not lie, which logically follows that he won't contradict himself. God says He's thrice Holy, therefore He binds Himself to not sin.

God isn't as arbitrary as you would like to imagine.

Fourth, there is ultimately no space of either "good" or "bad" in such a system.
If these terms mean anything at all, they are always related to some idea of "ought" and "ought not".
But in reality, these concepts are meaningless. There is only "is" and "is not".
If something "ought not" to be... it is not. If the creator creates something that ought not to be, he contradicts his own will.

i'm not sure how you would come to such a odd conclusion. good and bad have to do with the commands of God and whether or not we obey them. we're all sinners doing things we "ought not". i don't see how this means we don't exist or didn't do the things we do.

It is demonstrably unreliable, arbitrary, unrealistic and open to abuse. There is nothing worse.

cool story bro