God made the soul, so he can destroy it as well. Nowhere in scripture does it say a soul can not be destroyed. That is just a concept humans made up, and for some reason they believe it without backing up their claims. Absolutely a wicked soul can be destroyed.A soul can not be destroyed.
No that is not what their tradition was, still is, and is still done.
I learned this from a practicing Jew who is the son of an Orthodox rabbi.
What is being spoken about here as a tradition is a washing and drying of the hands three times. The water is poured from a little pitcher onto the hand and rubbed onto the other hand. Then the hands are dried. This is done three times. It's a tradition of the Pharisees that they say is from the Oral Law.
I think an Orthodox Jew knows more about Jewish traditions than Easton. I also think he said that it is in the Talmud.Washing in Easton's Bible Dictionary (Mark 7:1-9). The Jews, like other Orientals, used their fingers when taking food, and therefore washed their hands before doing so, for the sake of cleanliness. Here the reference is to the ablutions prescribed by tradition, according to which "the disciples ought to have gone down to the side of the lake, washed their hands thoroughly, 'rubbing the fist of one hand in the hollow of the other, then placed the ten finger- tips together, holding the hands up, so that any surplus water might flow down to the elbow, and thence to the ground.'" To neglect to do this had come to be regarded as a great sin, a sin equal to the breach of any of the ten commandments.
The point being, it is about the washing of hands for whatever reason, It was not commanded. That's it, to extrapolate more than that is twisting the scriptures.
That is correct. Now show me where gentile Christians were taught any more of the Torah? Unless gentiles were taught Torah they could not be required to obey it. Where does any scripture show that gentile Christians regularly attended synagogues? Jesus did not say His followers would attend synagogues along side of Torah observant Jews. In fact Jesus said they would be kicked out of the synagogues and killed.Of the four things that would openly show that a person had changed, had become a believer to be admitted into the congregation, Two of them are Dietary
Acts of the Apostles 15:20 1) Polution of idols 2) Fornication 3) Things Strangled 4) Blood
Strangled is not a Kosher way to kill an animal
Nor are you to eat the blood, drained in a Kosher kill..
So, two of the first four things a new believer was to obey is about the Dietary Law.
All but one of the 10 commandments are cited in the NT, more than once, as binding on NT Christians. People who read all the scriptures instead only of their out-of-context proof texts would know this.Are there only four things for believers, no murder, no stealing, being a false witness, since they are not mentioned?
Ridiculous
Your out-of-context proof text says nothing about uncircumcised gentile Christians regularly attending synagogues.Absolutely not, They would learn the rest of Torah, Moses when they went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath to hear him Preached Acts of the Apostles 15:21
More out-of-context proof texts which say nothing about uncircumcised gentile Christians attending synagogues. Did Jesus lie when He said His followers would be thrown out of the synagogues?Besides these first commands to believers, Peter emphasizing the point again in 1 Peter 1:16, Leviticus 11:44 That It matters what you eat. Isaiah 66:17 keep eating unclean things and find out for yourself.
Paul was a Torah observant Jew but he was persecuted throughout the NT for his belief in the Jesus as the Messiah. How would uncircumcised Christians be accepted in the synagogues?Preached in Every City on the Sabbath Acts of the Apostles 15:21
Who were the Jews who read the Torah every Sabbath in house churches in these cities every Sabbath?Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea
In other words you can't show me where any uncircumcised gentile Christians regularly attended a synagogue in even one city and were taught Torah, let alone Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea and all the other cities and lands mentioned in the NT. Were uncircumcised gentile Christians ever, up to and including the present time, accepted in worship along side Torah observant Jews?Did you ask this because you knew or didn't know, that was a great set-up.
Really, show you just one place?
Amazing.
I think an Orthodox Jew knows more about Jewish traditions than Easton. I also think he said that it is in the Talmud.
What Karaite Jew do you know or get your teachings from?Personally if it is from the Talmud, not interested.
Karaites don't follow the so-called Oral Law of the Talmud, and adopt the most straightforward interpretation of mitzvot from the Torah.
They don't wear tefillin, because they realize that carrying God as a seal in one's heart and on one's arm is a metaphor (otherwise, surgical implants would be required).
They allow themselves to eat cheeseburgers, because the only literal prohibition relating to meat and dairy is to avoid boiling a calf in its mother's milk.
But you appeal to Writings that say, maybe sanitized by now, that YESHUA is boiling in hot excrement, and that is a more reliable a source than Easton, next you will start quoting the quran as your proof.
OY VEY
Judaism developed more and more into an interpretative religion and the Talmud reflects this and kept being commented through the ages, while Karaites kept the same structure as two thousand years ago. There is an extensive debate whether they should still be considered part of Judaism or simply another religion like Christianism that also follows the old testament but not the rabbinical lineage of interpretations.
This to say, not all Jews are talmudic Jews, find a better source.
But that is not the point, the point is
Nevermind, it would just be redundant to repeat it again.
What Karaite Jew do you know or get your teachings from?
That is correct. Now show me where gentile Christians were taught any more of the Torah? Unless gentiles were taught Torah they could not be required to obey it. Where does any scripture show that gentile Christians regularly attended synagogues? Jesus did not say His followers would attend synagogues along side of Torah observant Jews. In fact Jesus said they would be kicked out of the synagogues and killed.
John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.When were uncircumcised NT Christians ever welcomed into the synagogues?
All but one of the 10 commandments are cited in the NT, more than once, as binding on NT Christians. People who read all the scriptures instead only of their out-of-context proof texts would know this.
Your out-of-context proof text says nothing about uncircumcised gentile Christians regularly attending synagogues.
More out-of-context proof texts which say nothing about uncircumcised gentile Christians attending synagogues. Did Jesus lie when He said His followers would be thrown out of the synagogues?
Paul was a Torah observant Jew but he was persecuted throughout the NT for his belief in the Jesus as the Messiah. How would uncircumcised Christians be accepted in the synagogues?
Who were the Jews who read the Torah every Sabbath in house churches in these cities every Sabbath?
In other words you can't show me where any uncircumcised gentile Christians regularly attended a synagogue in even one city and were taught Torah, let alone Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea and all the other cities and lands mentioned in the NT. Were uncircumcised gentile Christians ever, up to and including the present time, accepted in worship along side Torah observant Jews?
I don't do links.
Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.
A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced instead of correcting their belief.
[Previous post continued]
Are you sure?
In the following twenty three verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described by association with other words and phrases as eternal, everlasting etc.:
[snip]
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
In the following twenty three verses
In the following twenty two verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described by association with other words and phrases as eternity, eternal, everlasting etc.:
God made the soul, so he can destroy it as well. Nowhere in scripture does it say a soul can not be destroyed. That is just a concept humans made up, and for some reason they believe it without backing up their claims. Absolutely a wicked soul can be destroyed.
If there were atheists on the site they would wholey agree and love your position. Your position is exactly what the atheists and evil men on earth want. That is what they hope and expect is waiting for them....nothing at all that matches the deeds of their lives. Those of your position want to tell us that this is punishment enough but I have talked to atheists and the like and they very much believe and hope what you say awaits them. No real judgement or punishment, just eternal sleep. That is their wish. They get off scot free for all the evil they ever did. If that is not a wicked man's dream come true, what is?Before I begin I want to say that I am in no way one of those people who believe in annihilation to please my flesh or rely on my own understanding to make myself feel better. Sure you can use God's character as an argument, but I am here to show you pure biblical evidence where God clearly states the punishment for sin is death. If I saw in scripture God clearly say the wicked will have eternal conscious torment and hell is an eternal torture chamber, I would still trust him and accept that. But I just don't see the biblical evidence for this popular belief and ironically enough, so many Christians who are deep in the bible and far in their walk believe this view and think the truth (death of the wicked) is unbiblcal. I think scripture was twisted and the church popularized this false belief, and they obviously did a good job in it. As a side note, I truly think ceasing to exist is actually the worst punishment of all because you will never get a chance for life and you can never feel anything, so God is still just in that case and the wicked will pay for rejecting God. Some people believe in universal salvation which I do think is unbiblical.
I believe the lake of fire is a very real place. It clearly says the lake of fire is real in scripture, and there will be torment and punishment in there before the souls of the wicked perish and God restores his creation. When God makes the new heaven and new earth as stated in revelation, there will be no more room for suffering and evil. All evil will die and there will be no more need for existence of it. A lot of people make the argument that all souls are eternal, but that doesn't make any sense because before we were born, we did not exist. So we are not eternal in the way God is. Not to mention God has the power to destroy souls because he is the almighty creator. The bible says the righteous will have everlasting LIFE and the wicked will PERISH. It says the wages of sin is DEATH. The bible talks about everlasting "destruction". It says evil and hell will be thrown into the lake and fire for the second DEATH. I know a lot of people will make the argument death only refers to spiritual death, but it does not specifically say this in the bible, death means death, not only spiritual death but the death of your soul, and it seems pretty clear in the bible so there is no need to add to it. Most of all it talks about how the gift Jesus gives to the righteous is life, and if you don't believe in him you will receive the opposite which is death. The eternal punishment the bible talks about is the destruction of the soul for eternity.
Here is the biblical evidence:
Psalm 1:6 "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."
Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Psalm 34:16 "The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."
Psalm 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"
Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out"
Isaiah 1:28, 30-31 "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"
Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."
1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"
Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"
God made the soul, so he can destroy it as well. Nowhere in scripture does it say a soul can not be destroyed. That is just a concept humans made up, and for some reason they believe it without backing up their claims. Absolutely a wicked soul can be destroyed.
I have read that, and while gotquestions can be helpful for many topics, they are not the actual word of God itself. This topic is something they are getting wrong and in that article they don't even have that much scripture to back up their claims. All they are doing to pose their argument is relying on emotions and baseless assumptions about what "many annihilationists think" and how they feel about the idea and the psychology around it, rather than refuting the argument with scripture and clear biblical evidence. It is a very biased article.
Looks like the punishment is eternal in duration and punishment in quality. Eternal sleep or annihilation is a reward for the wicked. It is what they are all hoping for.Matthew 25:46 (AMP)
If the eternal punishment of the unsaved doesn't last forever, then the eternal life of the saved doesn't last forever either. Someone who has ceased to exist (been annihilated) can no longer be punished, therefore, the punishment is not eternal, thus, the life of the saved is not eternal either. For this verse to be true, annihilationism has to be false.46 Then these[unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
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