Why are so many Catholics anti-Protestant? (2)

[Albion]

... and, by implication, outside the Church there is no salvation.

This is perfect RCC truth but NOT Gospel truth.

Actually, it's not even that. Current RCC teaching is that anyone can be saved, even those who have never heard of Christ, so long as they are good and sincere.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, it's not even that. Current RCC teaching is that anyone can be saved, even those who have never heard of Christ, so long as they are good and sincere.

The emphasis seems to be that it is a possibility that they could be saved, but there are conditions attached. These individuals must embrace the Catholic Church wholeheartedly if, and when, they encounter it, or they must be "invincibly ignorant". Invincible ignorance is used to cover virtually every non-Catholic, including ourselves who, according to some Catholics, would gladly embrace Catholicism were we not so pigheadedly ignorant.

The niggling question is, however, how much time in Purgatory saved non-Catholics will spend.

 

[samcarternx]

sam, Acts 4:12 says that salvation is found in no one other than Christ, "for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." This verse and many others make it abundantly clear that Christ is the only Savior of the world. That is precisely why the Church says that its existence in the world is necessary for salvation: because we would not know of Christ had it not been for the Church. In Acts 4:12, Peter is pointing to Christ as the Savior, but he does so as an authoritative witness to Christ, as his chosen apostle. The people to whom Peter was preaching would not know of Christ except through his witness as the leader of the Church. So we can say that the proclamation of Christ by the Church is necessary for salvation. Outside of Christ there is no salvation and, by implication, outside the Church there is no salvation.

Of course I agree with you, because God has already said that. The church is propagated by preaching. I am saying that just as Peter was a witness and testified to the truth that he was shown, so too am I a witness and testify to the truth I have been shown. When we have agreed with God and become a member of the church then we too preach and propagate it just as Peter did. The church is a term describing those that have partaken of the salvation, I know you see the difference in what I am saying and what has been touted as THE church. ...and not just by RCC, but LDS and etc, lol catholic is a description, not a name.

 

[Albion]

The emphasis seems to be that it is a possibility that they could be saved, but there are conditions attached.

Right. As I said, they are "good and sincere."

These individuals must embrace the Catholic Church wholeheartedly if, and when, they encounter it, or they must be "invincibly ignorant".

No, that was the point of my comment. That used to be the RCC's position, but now it's become normative to speak of everyone being something of a de facto Roman Catholic, or an unconscious Roman Catholic...so long as he's good and sincere in whatever religion he embraces. The Pope enunciated this view a few years ago and a recent survey showed that only 9% of American RCs don't agree with it. My guess is that most of them post here, however.

 

[samcarternx]

The emphasis seems to be that it is a possibility that they could be saved, but there are conditions attached. These individuals must embrace the Catholic Church wholeheartedly if, and when, they encounter it, or they must be "invincibly ignorant". Invincible ignorance is used to cover virtually every non-Catholic, including ourselves who, according to some Catholics, would gladly embrace Catholicism were we not so pigheadedly ignorant.

The niggling question is, however, how much time in Purgatory saved non-Catholics will spend.

Any "conditions" to the gospel set forth by the Lord Savior the Anointed that are established by mere men is simply nonsense and perhaps criminal.

 

[samcarternx]

I really am trying to help and not fight. I want to warn that there are falsehoods connected with carnality that do not accurately describe THE WAY THINGS ARE.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Right. As I said, they are "good and sincere."

No, that was the point of my comment. That used to be the RCC's position, but now it's become normative to speak of everyone being something of a de facto Roman Catholic, or an unconscious Roman Catholic...so long as he's good and sincere in whatever religion he embraces. The Pope enunciated this view a few years ago and a recent survey showed that only 9% of American RCs don't agree with it. My guess is that most of them post here, however.

Yes, the Catholics here at CF are quite atypical.

I am still awaiting any sort of explanation regarding Purgatory, especially for those of us de facto Catholics, aka "separated brethren".

 

[barryatlake]

bbbbbbb, i'd suggest that you start a new topic on Purgatory.

 

[Albion]

I am still awaiting any sort of explanation regarding Purgatory, especially for those of us de facto Catholics, aka "separated brethren".

They didn't respond, I realize, but the issue has been explained thoroughly enough that there shouldn't be any question about what the theory is all about. Or so I thought. No?

 

[barryatlake]

Purgatory is clearly explained if one has a real Sacred Holy Bible.

 

[bbbbbbb]

bbbbbbb, i'd suggest that you start a new topic on Purgatory.

Been there, done that. Got answers all over the spectrum.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Purgatory is clearly explained if one has a real Sacred Holy Bible.

I just have a regular Bible. Actually a large number of Bibles in various translations. I am not familiar with the Sacred Holy Bible. Is that a new Catholic Bible?

 

[barryatlake]

I just have a regular Bible. Actually a large number of Bibles in various translations. I am not familiar with the Sacred Holy Bible. Is that a new Catholic Bible?
__________________
If your bibles are all Protestant then your bible does not contain the same books that Jesus read from. The Reformers dropped from the Bible books that had been in common use for centuries'

 

[Albion]

I just have a regular Bible. Actually a large number of Bibles in various translations. I am not familiar with the Sacred Holy Bible. Is that a new Catholic Bible?

Yes, I have them all (or most of them, including the ones barry probably uses). There is no Purgatory in any of them. What there is, to be clear, are a few scattered and imprecise references to judgments to come. To turn that into something as detailed and specific as all that "Purgatory" amounts to would be like saying that the Bible proves the existence of automobiles because it mentions travel and, in another place, metal.

 

[barryatlake]

The Reformers dropped from the Bible books that had been in common use for centuries'. If those books were good enough for Jesus and His followers then those same books should be good enough for you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Reformers dropped from the Bible books that had been in common use for centuries'. If those books were good enough for Jesus and His followers then those same books should be good enough for you.

Well enough. Please provide detailed descriptions of the doctrine of Purgatory from any of the deutercanonical books, if you will.

 

[Albion]

The Reformers dropped from the Bible books that had been in common use for centuries'. If those books were good enough for Jesus and His followers then those same books should be good enough for you.

What makes you say they were good enough for Jesus and his followers? I don't recall Jesus ever saying that Bel and the Dragon, for example, was divine revelation. But maybe you know of some place where he did? The Jews were divided on those books, just as the Christian church still is today.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What makes you say they were good enough for Jesus and his followers? I don't recall Jesus ever saying that Bel and the Dragon, for example, was divine revelation. But maybe you know of some place where he did? The Jews were divided on those books, just as the Christian church still is today.

Saint Jerome omitted those books from his canon, so it is absurd to think that these books were always accepted by the Roman Catholic church.

 

[barryatlake]

bb, I will, in my next post, show you only a few examples of many Deutercanonical verses to be compared to the NT verses.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

Sirach and 2 Maccabees – some Protestants argue these books are not inspired because the writers express uncertainty about their abilities. But sacred writers are often humble about their divinely inspired writings. See, for example, 1 Cor. 7:40 – Paul says he “thinks” that he has the Spirit of God.

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

 

[barryatlake]

bb,

Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and