Why are so many Catholics anti-Protestant? (2)

[crixus]

There are wheats and tares in every crowd.

Very true. And that's probably where that old saying that it's best not to discuss politics, sports and religion comes from. No matter where you go, there's always at least one wheat and tare. Fortunately, were not that way.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Very true. And that's probably where that old saying that it's best not to discuss politics, sports and religion comes from. No matter where you go, there's always at least one wheat and tare. Fortunately, were not that way.

Is that where it came from lol

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

What puzzles me is that I have seen more anti-Protestantism in the Eastern Orthodox Church than I have in the Roman Catholic Church.

I understand why Catholics and Protestants would hate each other (I am not saying they do, but in theory I find animosity understandable) because of the Reformation and that both sides persecuted each other.

The EOC that I have met on the Internet seem more interested in shouting heresy at Protestants than Catholics. The Schism resulted in two churces: the RC and the EOC, and the EOC has not experienced the Reformation, so I figured they would dislike Catholics, yet they view Catholics favorably while Protestants are godless heretics.

Now, I know that not everyone in the EOC is like that, but that is just what I have experienced from some very vocal EOC members on the Internet. I believe there are true Christians in each group since we all believe in the Trinity, Jesus is the Son of God and is the only way to heaven, etc.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What puzzles me is that I have seen more anti-Protestantism in the Eastern Orthodox Church than I have in the Roman Catholic Church.

I understand why Catholics and Protestants would hate each other (I am not saying they do, but in theory I find animosity understandable) because of the Reformation and that both sides persecuted each other.

The EOC that I have met on the Internet seem more interested in shouting heresy at Protestants than Catholics. The Schism resulted in two churces: the RC and the EOC, and the EOC has not experienced the Reformation, so I figured they would dislike Catholics, yet they view Catholics favorably while Protestants are godless heretics.

Now, I know that not everyone in the EOC is like that, but that is just what I have experienced from some very vocal EOC members on the Internet. I believe there are true Christians in each group since we all believe in the Trinity, Jesus is the Son of God and is the only way to heaven, etc.

I think cultural context has a lot to do with it. When I was young, growing up in a city with 80% or more Catholics, I had several EO friends. They saw themselves as facing the Catholic enemy which was harrassing them as well as us Protestants. From my side I saw them as merely another variant of Protestants being harrassed by the Catholics.

I think more EO folks here are living in the context where there is a majority Protestant community and a minority Catholic and EO community so they gravitate to their fellow minority denomination in the face of what they perceive to be Protestant harrassment.

 

[Albion]

What puzzles me is that I have seen more anti-Protestantism in the Eastern Orthodox Church than I have in the Roman Catholic Church.

My experience confirms that thinking.

The EOC that I have met on the Internet seem more interested in shouting heresy at Protestants than Catholics. The Schism resulted in two churces: the RC and the EOC, and the EOC has not experienced the Reformation, so I figured they would dislike Catholics, yet they view Catholics favorably while Protestants are godless heretics.

It's true, and I've noted on these forums that the EO almost never criticize the RC in public, even though the two are bitterly divided on the Papacy and other doctrines. The reason is, IMO, that they do not want to give any aid and comfort to the Protestants here, even on issues where the EO and the reformed churches are closer together than either is to the RCC.

 

[barryatlake]

Maybe because Protestants never write or speak with reverence toward the Blessed Virgin Mary the Mother of Emmanuel [ God amongst us ] for an example. Also both can trace their Apostolic lineage directly back to Jesus and His apostles, another thing is that both EO and Catholic have very similar Teachings. I am really more like anti-Protestantism rather than anti- Protestant.

 

[Albion]

Maybe because Protestants never write or speak with reverence toward the Blessed Virgin Mary

How inventive. I'll file that in the "denominational myths" folder along with "Roman Catholics worship the Pope" and "Protestants all say 'Jay-Zus' (which was actually written on these forums by one of your colleagues).

 

[barryatlake]

Not so fast Albion,the word Emmanuel translates to "God is with us." Matthew recalls the messianic prophecy from Isaiah 7:14 and states that its ultimate fulfillment is found in Mary’s Son: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (Matt. 1:23). KJV Bible

 

[Job8]

Maybe because Protestants never write or speak with reverence toward the Blessed Virgin Mary the Mother of Emmanuel [ God amongst us ] for an example.

You will generally not find Protestants or Non-Catholics disrespecting Mary, since she is indeed the mother of Jesus. But calling her "the Mother of God" (which includes the triune Godhead) far exceeds the limits of Scripture. Theotokos begain with the EOC and was then promoted by the RCC, but that is not what she is called in Scripture. Had they stayed with Christotokos, there would have been no issue. It's the worship of Mary that is unacceptable.

The Council of Ephesus decreed, in opposition to those who denied Mary the title Theotokos ("the one who gives birth to God") but called her Christotokos ("the one who gives birth to Christ"), that Mary is Theotokos because her son Jesus is one person who is both God and man, divine and human.

 

[Albion]

You will generally not find Protestants or Non-Catholics disrespecting Mary, since she is indeed the mother of Jesus. But calling her "the Mother of God" (which includes the triune Godhead) far exceeds the limits of Scripture. Theotokos begain with the EOC and was then promoted by the RCC, but that is not what she is called in Scripture. Had they stayed with Christotokos, there would have been no issue. It's the worship of Mary that is unacceptable.

But if I may, that term (Theotokos) isn't really a doctrine. It's an honorary title--unless it's said that this is factually wrong. You, however began your post by saying that she is indeed the mother of Jesus whom we all know to be God in the flesh.

Anyway, my point is that using that term is probably the mildest example of what you're referring to.

Much less defensible are such titles and claims as these: Queen of Heaven, Mother of all humanity, Co-redeemer of the world, dispenser of all graces, Immaculately Conceived, Assumed into heaven in body form, and Ever-Virgin.

 

[barryatlake]

God the Father assumed Enoch and Elijah into heaven, why wouldn't Jesus take His mother to heaven, if possible wouldn't you want your mother in heaven? Jesus was the perfect son and the most pious follower of the 10 Commandments including the Fourth Commandment -

" With your whole heart honor your father; your mother's birthpangs forget not. Remember, of these parents you were born; what can you give them for all they gave you ?"

 

[Albion]

God the Father assumed Enoch and Elijah into heaven, why wouldn't Jesus take His mother to heaven, if possible wouldn't you want your mother in heaven?

It is absurd to make dogma on the basis of "Why wouldn't God do...." or "He could have done X, so let's say he did." Both of those have been offered here as excuses for dogmas like this one. Why not say that because Elijah was taken to heaven, Peter (your imaginary first pope, after all) or a flock of great saints, perhaps all the Apostles and/or Paul, were also taken to heaven?

It should be obvious that we cannot just: 1) invent doctrines because they seem like a good idea, or 2) stipulate that whatever is possible with God is therefore what he actually did. If that were accepted, there'd be nothing left outside that scheme of things since God is all powerful.

 

[barryatlake]

Albion, it is more absurd to think that Jesus 'the most perfect of sons' never had His 'Blessed Mother Mary ' with Him in Heaven.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I couldn't think of a better place to post this next bit so this thread will do.

I'm nearing the end of RCIA and the more I learn about the faith, the more I realize that evangelicalism really is a mutilated, incoherent version of Catholicism. It's like Catholicism but without all the things that make Catholicism make sense.

For example, last year a nearby Southern Baptist church did a series called Adventure, which was a time of "serious reflection" when the "worship leaders" all wore violet and so did the pastor of the church. It was all part of the lead up to Christmas, you see.

These Southern Baptists don't trust in man-made traditions, you understand, they stick with the Bible and nothing else... until it doesn't suit them anymore, that is. Or if they need a marketing gimmick. Or if they're slowly beginning to recognize what a serious time of year that season is and maybe the church should have some type of organized observance of it... nah, that's crazy talk!

That same church is doing a Good Friday service this year. I went to that church in another lifetime and I'm here to say they've NEVER done a Good Friday service before. But by golly, they're doing one now!

A different SB church nearby from February 18 to April 2 is doing a Bible series about the gospel of St. Mark during which time members are encouraged to do real acts of charity and selflessness as they reflect soberly on the reality of sin in their lives and, ultimately, the charity and selflessness required in order for salvation to become possible. Why, they might even want to fast from certain foods or abstain from certain practices or what have you to better focus their minds during this "season of reflection"! A little self-denial can't be bad for you. But whatever you do, don't call that Lent! Because that's man-made tradition! We go by the Bible, not history!

The picking-and-choosing by itself is kind of annoying. But the bigger issue as I see it is that the picking-and-choosing goes on but the evangelicals lack the intellectual honesty to admit it. They're guided at least as much by tradition as anybody but (A) it's their tradition and (B) it'll be a cold day in you-know-where before they ever admit to it.

So, yes, I can absolutely see why Catholics would have a very hard time respecting all or most Protestants.

 

[Albion]

I couldn't think of a better place to post this next bit so this thread will do.

I'm nearing the end of RCIA and the more I learn about the faith, the more I realize that evangelicalism really is a mutilated, incoherent version of Catholicism. It's like Catholicism but without all the things that make Catholicism make sense.

For example, last year a nearby Southern Baptist church did a series called Adventure, which was a time of "serious reflection" when the "worship leaders" all wore violet and so did the pastor of the church. It was all part of the lead up to Christmas, you see.

These Southern Baptists don't trust in man-made traditions, you understand, they stick with the Bible and nothing else... until it doesn't suit them anymore, that is. Or if they need a marketing gimmick.

Now wait a minute. They don't "trust in man-made traditions" when those traditions become doctrines imposed on the people under pain of sin (as the RCC would phrase it). Only the most religiously illiterate think that putting on some costume for a public informational campaign is in that category, not any more than having red and green trimming in the church at Christmastide--and it's not a theological issue. The Catholic Church does much the same thing.

So, yes, I can absolutely see why Catholics would have a very hard time respecting all or most Protestants.

It makes me sad to read this kind of stuff, but that's what RCIA is all about--orientation moreso than instruction.

 

[Meowzltov]

Last time I checked, Catholics weren't calling Protestantism the harlot of Babylon.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I couldn't think of a better place to post this next bit so this thread will do.

I'm nearing the end of RCIA and the more I learn about the faith, the more I realize that evangelicalism really is a mutilated, incoherent version of Catholicism. It's like Catholicism but without all the things that make Catholicism make sense.

For example, last year a nearby Southern Baptist church did a series called Adventure, which was a time of "serious reflection" when the "worship leaders" all wore violet and so did the pastor of the church. It was all part of the lead up to Christmas, you see.

These Southern Baptists don't trust in man-made traditions, you understand, they stick with the Bible and nothing else... until it doesn't suit them anymore, that is. Or if they need a marketing gimmick. Or if they're slowly beginning to recognize what a serious time of year that season is and maybe the church should have some type of organized observance of it... nah, that's crazy talk!

That same church is doing a Good Friday service this year. I went to that church in another lifetime and I'm here to say they've NEVER done a Good Friday service before. But by golly, they're doing one now!

A different SB church nearby from February 18 to April 2 is doing a Bible series about the gospel of St. Mark during which time members are encouraged to do real acts of charity and selflessness as they reflect soberly on the reality of sin in their lives and, ultimately, the charity and selflessness required in order for salvation to become possible. Why, they might even want to fast from certain foods or abstain from certain practices or what have you to better focus their minds during this "season of reflection"! A little self-denial can't be bad for you. But whatever you do, don't call that Lent! Because that's man-made tradition! We go by the Bible, not history!

The picking-and-choosing by itself is kind of annoying. But the bigger issue as I see it is that the picking-and-choosing goes on but the evangelicals lack the intellectual honesty to admit it. They're guided at least as much by tradition as anybody but (A) it's their tradition and (B) it'll be a cold day in you-know-where before they ever admit to it.

So, yes, I can absolutely see why Catholics would have a very hard time respecting all or most Protestants.

Many of these types of Churches also celebrate the reformation and quote Luther out of context. Were he alive today, I doubt he would be giving them much support either.

 

[Albion]

Last time I checked, Catholics weren't calling Protestantism the harlot of Babylon.

No. They've got their own lineup of slurs.

 

[Meowzltov]

No. They've got their own lineup of slurs.

Really? I don't think so. The Catechism makes it clear that Protestants are Christians. We have problems with your teachings, just as you have problems with ours, but we accept you as our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Anniecat]

Get your history right. The reformation was not about taxes but theological abuses; nor was Luther trying to "break away", rather he desired to reform the existing Church, not start a new one. The Catholic Church excommunicated Luther separating themselves from him, not the other way around. Some of the Princes (Electors) of the Holy Roman Empire did get behind Luther for political reasons (taxes) though.

If that's what's being taught in Schools, it's no wonder. I have lots of Catholic friends, and they were not taught such.

This is not taught in schools (I'm a teacher) but you are absolutely correct in saying that ML did not post the 95 Theses on the church door in Wittenburg with starting a new church on his mind. No, he observed some serious abuses happening within the church and he wanted to have an academic and spiritual debate about these abuses. As things spiraled out of control he had no choice except to try to set up a spiritual environment for Christians to worship and be taught.

Do many of our Protestant friends here know that both Calvin and Luther wrote positively about some or all of the doctrines of Mary observed by our Catholic friends?

Just a perspective. God bless all!

Annie