Why are so many Catholics anti-Protestant? (2)

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Moving along, I will proceed on to the twenty-eighth set of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time by Luke -

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.


Acts 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away. 13 When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
15 At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said, 16 “Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.” 18 (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out. 19 And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘Let his homestead be made desolate,
And let no one dwell in it’;

and,
‘Let another man take his office.’

21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.


The passage in Acts is about the gathering of the disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost when Matthias was chosen to replace Judas.




I Maccabees 3:54 Then they blew trumpets and shouted loudly.
55 After that, Judas divided his men into groups of ten, fifty, a hundred, and a thousand, placing officers in charge of each group. 56 Then, in obedience to the Law, he sent home everyone who had recently been married, built a house, or planted a vineyard, as well as anyone who was afraid. 57 Finally, the army marched out and took up positions south of Emmaus, 58 where Judas said to them:
Prepare yourselves for battle and be courageous! Be ready early tomorrow morning to fight these Gentiles who have joined forces to attack us and destroy us and our Temple. 59 It is better for us to die fighting than to stand idly by and watch the destruction of our nation and our Temple. 60 But the Lord will do what he pleases.


The passage in I Maccabees is about Judas Maccabeus preparing for war and dividing his army into battalions of ten, fifty, one hundred, and one thousand. There is not even a mention concerning the number 120. The only thing these two unrelated passages have in common is that they both mention numbers. There are innumerable (pardon the pun) passages in the Old Testament which mention all manner of numbers.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I also wonder that. I suspect that some are visiting the thread and reading, but choosing not to post. As you know, this is a fairly quiet corner of CF. In due time I am considering taking my findings over to GT where I hope others will be willing to consider the quotes in their proper contexts.

Because I had asked scullywr for clarification also and not recieving an answer, following along with some of the findings are of interest.

 

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Because I had asked scullywr for clarification also and not recieving an answer, following along with some of the findings are of interest.

Yes, I had a similar response from sculleywr, as well. Thank you for your post.

 

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Moving along, I will proceed on to the twenty-ninth set of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time from three NT sources -

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Acts 10 contains the account of the conversion of the Roman centurion, Cornelius, and his household. Peter, a righteous Jew, received direct revelation from God to go to Cornelius, a Gentile, and preach to him. From the experience, Peter proclaimed that God does not show partiality to Jews over Gentiles.

Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

In Romans Paul expounds on the gospel. In chapter 2 he makes that point that not only are Jews sinners because they do not keep the Law, but Gentiles are also sinners even though they are not under the Law. Both groups are equally sinners in the sight of God.

Galatians 2 :1Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. 2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. 3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. 5 But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you. 6 But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They only asked us to remember the poor—the very thing I also was eager to do.

In Galatians 2 Paul recounts his rebuke of Peter for having distanced himself from Gentiles (despite the lesson God had taught Peter in Acts 10).

Sirach 12:1 To keep the law is to make many offerings;
2 whoever observes the commandments sacrifices a peace offering.
3 By works of charity one offers fine flour,
4 and one who gives alms presents a sacrifice of praise.
5 To refrain from evil pleases the Lord,
and to avoid injustice is atonement.
6 Do not appear before the Lord empty-handed,
7 for all that you offer is in fulfillment of the precepts.
8 The offering of the just enriches the altar:
a sweet odor before the Most High.
9 The sacrifice of the just is accepted,
never to be forgotten.
10 With a generous spirit pay homage to the Lord,
and do not spare your freewill gifts.
11 With each contribution show a cheerful countenance,
and pay your tithes in a spirit of joy.
12 Give to the Most High as he has given to you,
generously, according to your means.
13 For he is a God who always repays
and will give back to you sevenfold.
14 But offer no bribes; these he does not accept!
15 Do not trust in sacrifice of the fruits of extortion,
For he is a God of justice,
who shows no partiality.
16 He shows no partiality to the weak
but hears the grievance of the oppressed.

Sirach 12 is all about making offerings to God. Verse 12 has nothing to say concerning God not showing partiality to anyone; rather the tenor of the chapter is that God regards those who make offerings better than those who do not. In verses 15 and 16 it is clear that His justice is perfectly equitable. It is probably one or both of these verses that were intended as the reference in this case.

In any event. All of these citations can find their root in several of the Proverbs. Thus, if one wishes to find a source for the NT citations the Proverbs are much more likely than Sirach 12.

 

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Moving along, I will proceed on to the thirtieth set of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time from Paul's famous sermon on Mars Hill in Athens -

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Acts 17:22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Paul contrasts God with vain idols in his sermon. This brings to mind such Old Testament passages as Psalm 115

115:1 Not to us, O Lord, not to us,
But to Your name give glory
Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth.
2 Why should the nations say,
“Where, now, is their God?”
3 But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.
4 Their idols are silver and gold,
The work of man’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but they cannot speak;
They have eyes, but they cannot see;
6 They have ears, but they cannot hear;
They have noses, but they cannot smell;
7 They have hands, but they cannot feel;
They have feet, but they cannot walk;
They cannot make a sound with their throat.
8 Those who make them will become like them,
Everyone who trusts in them.


and Isaiah 44:9-20.

Wisdom 13:10 But wretched are they, and in dead things are their hopes, who termed gods things made by human hands:
Gold and silver, the product of art, and images of beasts,
or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.
11 A carpenter may cut down a suitable tree
and skillfully scrape off all its bark,
And deftly plying his art
produce something fit for daily use,
12 And use the scraps from his handiwork
in preparing his food, and have his fill;
13 Then the good-for-nothing refuse from these remnants,
crooked wood grown full of knots,
he takes and carves to occupy his spare time.
This wood he models with mindless skill,
and patterns it on the image of a human being
14 or makes it resemble some worthless beast.
When he has daubed it with red and crimsoned its surface with red stain,
and daubed over every blemish in it,
15 He makes a fitting shrine for it
and puts it on the wall, fastening it with a nail.
16 Thus he provides for it lest it fall down,
knowing that it cannot help itself;
for, truly, it is an image and needs help.
17 But when he prays about his goods or marriage or children,
he is not ashamed to address the thing without a soul.
For vigor he invokes the powerless;
18 for life he entreats the dead;
For aid he beseeches the wholly incompetent;
for travel, something that cannot even walk;
19 For profit in business and success with his hands
he asks power of a thing with hands utterly powerless.


The passage in Wisdom closely follows the passage in Isaiah which was written long before Wisdom. It is much more likely that Paul had either Psalm 115 or Isaiah 44 in mind rather than the passage from Wisdom.

 

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Moving along, I will proceed on to the thirty-first set of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time from Paul -

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.


Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


Paul commences his theme of the gospel in Romans by discussing the effects of the Fall in this passage.




1 Foolish by nature were all who were in ignorance of God,
and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing the one who is,
and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;
2 Instead either fire, or wind, or the swift air,
or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water,
or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods.
3 Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods,
let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these;
for the original source of beauty fashioned them.
4 Or if they were struck by their might and energy,
let them realize from these things how much more powerful is the one who made them.
5 For from the greatness and the beauty of created things
their original author, by analogy, is seen.
6 But yet, for these the blame is less;
For they have gone astray perhaps,
though they seek God and wish to find him.
7 For they search busily among his works,
but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair.
8 But again, not even these are pardonable.
9 For if they so far succeeded in knowledge
that they could speculate about the world,
how did they not more quickly find its Lord?
10 But wretched are they, and in dead things are their hopes,
who termed gods things made by human hands:
Gold and silver, the product of art, and images of beasts,
or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.

This passage from Wisdom focuses primarily on the idolatry of pantheism and ends with a condemnation of the use of idols. As was seen in a previous post here the passage comes much closer to Psalm 115 and Isaiah 44 than to Romans 1 which is a condemnation of the moral degradation which is the result of the Fall. Idolatry, in Romans 1, is an initial symptom which leads to gross immorality. There is no mention of immorality in Wisdom 13.

 

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Moving along, I will proceed on to the thirty-second set of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time from Paul -

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.


Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [l]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


Here we go again with Paul's opening salvo regarding the moral depravity of mankind. See the above post for further comments.




Wisdom 13:1 Foolish by nature were all who were in ignorance of God,
and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing the one who is,
and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;
2 Instead either fire, or wind, or the swift air,
or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water,
or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods.
3 Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods,
let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these;
for the original source of beauty fashioned them.
4 Or if they were struck by their might and energy,
let them realize from these things how much more powerful is the one who made them.
5 For from the greatness and the beauty of created things
their original author, by analogy, is seen.
6 But yet, for these the blame is less;
For they have gone astray perhaps,
though they seek God and wish to find him.
7 For they search busily among his works,
but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair.
8 But again, not even these are pardonable.
9 For if they so far succeeded in knowledge
that they could speculate about the world,
how did they not more quickly find its Lord?


Once again, the writer of Wisdom exposes the folly of pantheism. There is no hint of moral depravity in this passage.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Moving along, I will proceed on to the thirty-third set of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time from Paul -

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.


Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


Here it is again for the third time - Paul's opening salvo in Romans concerning the total depravity of mankind.




Wisdom 11:15 Their wickedness misled them into silly ideas, so that they worshiped snakes and other disgusting animals, creatures without any powers of reason. Because of this, you punished them with millions of such animals, 16 and taught them that punishment for sin takes the same form as the sin itself. 17 Your almighty power, Lord, created the world out of material that had no form at all. You could easily have punished those people by sending an invasion of bears or savage lions. 18 You could have created new and terrible animals, that could breathe fire or roar and send out clouds of smoke, or shoot out fearful sparks from their eyes. 19 You could have made animals like these that would not have to attack those people to kill them, but could scare them to death just by looking at them. 20 But this was not necessary. You could have pursued them with your justice or struck them dead at the slightest hint of your power. But you have chosen to measure, count, and weigh everything you do.


This portion of Wisdom is about God's judgement of Egypt at the time of the Exodus, not about the depravity of all mankind.




Wisdom 12:23 And so you tormented those who were foolish enough to live wickedly—you tormented them with the horrible things they worshiped. 24 They had wandered far away from the truth and worshiped the most disgusting and horrible animals. They were deceived as easily as little children. 25 And so you punished them for their stupidity, and your judgment made them look like fools. 26 It was a light punishment, but those who pay no attention to such warnings deserve to feel the full weight of God's judgment. 27 When they were punished with those creatures they considered gods, they became bitterly disillusioned and recognized that the true God was the one they had always refused to acknowledge. That is why they suffered the final punishment.


This portion is also about God's judgement of Egypt at the time of the Exodus, not about the general depravity of mankind.




Wisdom 13:10 But the most miserable people of all are those who rest their hopes on lifeless things, who worship things that have been made by human hands—images of animals artistically made from gold and silver, or some useless stone carved by someone years ago. 11 A skilled woodworker may saw down some suitable tree, carefully strip off the bark, and then, with skillful craftsmanship, make from it an object that will serve some useful purpose. 12 He will take the leftover pieces and use them as firewood to cook a meal that he can sit down to and enjoy. 13 But among that scrap wood he may take one piece that isn't good for anything—maybe it's crooked and full of knots—and carefully carve it in his leisure time, using spare moments to shape it into the crude image of a person, 14 or maybe of some worthless animal. He paints it all over with red, covering up every flaw in the work. 15 Then he prepares a suitable place in the wall for it and fastens it in place with iron nails. 16 He is careful to keep it from falling, because he knows it is only an idol and needs help; it cannot help itself. 17 But he is not ashamed to pray to this lifeless thing about his marriage, his children, and his possessions. 18 It is weak, but he prays to it for health. It is dead, but he prays to it for life. It has no experience, but he prays to it for help. It cannot walk, but he prays to it for a successful journey. 19 Its hands have no power, but he asks it to help him—in business, in making money, and in his work.


This is the passage which has previously been cited and shown to have been itself based upon Isaiah 44 or, possibly, Psalm 115.




Wisdom 14:1 Or imagine this: A man is preparing for a trip. He’s about to board a ship that must sail through rough waves. So the man cries out for protection to a little piece of wood that is even more flimsy than the boat that will carry him. 2 Desire for profit led to the ship’s planning, and wisdom was the artisan who built it, 3 but your watchful guidance, Father, pilots the ship. You made a way in the sea, a sure path through strong waves. 4 You have shown us that you can rescue us from anything, so that even those who have no skill can put out to sea. 5 Your will is that the works of your wisdom be fruitful. This is the only reason in the end why humans can entrust their lives to cheap pieces of wood and can reach land safely by riding the breaking surf on a ship that is no more than a raft. 6 Near the beginning, at a time when proud giants were being destroyed, the hope of the world escaped on just such a raft. This was how the genetic character[a] of a new generation survived for the world to come. They were steered the whole way by your hand. 7 Praised be the wood by means of which it has now become possible for us to do what is right!
8 But idols made by human hands are cursed, as are those who make them. Those who make them are cursed because they make them. The idols are cursed because, though made of corruptible material, people call them gods. 9 Both are equally hateful to God: the godless craftsmen and the products of their godlessness. 10 The thing that has been produced will be punished along with the one who produced it. 11 Therefore, God will come in judgment on the nation’s idols, for they have turned a part of God’s creation into something that God hates. They have produced stumbling blocks for the well-being of humans, a trap set to spring when the feet of the foolish step on it. 12 The very notion of idols was the beginning of immoral sexual activity. The invention of idols ruined human life. 13 In the beginning, idols didn’t exist, and they won’t last forever. 14 They came into the world through the empty-headed imaginings of humans. Therefore, they’ll come to a quick end.
15 Imagine a father overcome with grief at the untimely death of his child. In his grief, he makes an image of the child. The person who was once a corpse he now honors as a god. He passes it on to those under his authority, along with certain mysteries and special ceremonies. 16 As time goes by, his godless custom becomes tradition. Eventually, his custom becomes law, and rulers order the people to worship these carved images.
17 These rulers, moreover, lived far away from most of their subjects. So because the people couldn’t pay their respects in person, they imagined what the ruler looked like and made an image of their honored leader. By their diligent efforts, they were thus still able to shower the king with their flattery. 18 But the artist’s desire to be recognized for his work also incited the fools to an ever greater intensity of worship. 19 Perhaps out of a desire to please the person in power, the artist makes the most of his artistic skill to fashion an even more beautiful and perfect image. 20 The masses, charmed by the object’s workmanship, now begin to consider the object worthy of their worship, where not long before they had only honored the person as a human being.
21 In this way idolatry becomes a trap for one’s life. Whether it is because of a father’s misfortune or because people are ordered to do so, stones and plants begin to be called by the name that was never supposed to be shared with anything or anyone else.
22 Then, as if it weren’t enough that they should err concerning the knowledge of God, other things follow. When living ignorantly in the midst of great war, people call such evil things peace. 23 Then, in the celebration of secret religious ceremonies involving the ritual murder of children or in hidden mysteries or in the mad orgies of strange worship practices, 24 people stop keeping their lives and their marriages pure. Instead, one person plots to kill another by lying in ambush. Another person causes grief by becoming sexually involved with another person’s spouse. 25 Everything becomes a confused mix of blood, murder, theft, and deception. Corruption, breaking one’s word, upheaval, false pledges—all these things abound. 26 What is good is shouted down. Favors are forgotten. Entire beings are stained with guilt. Legitimate genealogy is lost. Marriage is thrown into confusion. Adultery and promiscuity abound.
27 The worship of nameless idols is the origin of all evil—its cause as well as its result. 28 People begin to party so wildly that they all go mad. They prophesy lies. They live in such a way that everything they do is wrong. They bear false witness, 29 but because they have entrusted themselves into the hands of lifeless idols, they don’t expect any harm to come from swearing false pledges. 30 A double judgment will hunt them down—first, because they acted wickedly toward God when they gave their attention to idols; and second, because they made solemn pledges falsely out of contempt for what was holy. 31 It isn’t the power of the things by which they made these solemn pledges but justice that will pursue them until it punishes them for doing wrong.


This chapter is a general expose of idolatry, but without relating it to the moral depravity of mankind.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Moving along, I will proceed on to the thirty-fourth set of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time from Paul -

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.


Romans 1:18 God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all the ungodly behavior and the injustice of human beings who silence the truth with injustice. 19 This is because what is known about God should be plain to them because God made it plain to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities—God’s eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through the things God has made. So humans are without excuse. 21 Although they knew God, they didn’t honor God as God or thank him. Instead, their reasoning became pointless, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 While they were claiming to be wise, they made fools of themselves. 23 They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images that look like mortal humans: birds, animals, and reptiles. 24 So God abandoned them to their hearts’ desires, which led to the moral corruption of degrading their own bodies with each other. 25 They traded God’s truth for a lie, and they worshipped and served the creation instead of the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 That’s why God abandoned them to degrading lust. Their females traded natural sexual relations for unnatural sexual relations. 27 Also, in the same way, the males traded natural sexual relations with females, and burned with lust for each other. Males performed shameful actions with males, and they were paid back with the penalty they deserved for their mistake in their own bodies. 28 Since they didn’t think it was worthwhile to acknowledge God, God abandoned them to a defective mind to do inappropriate things. 29 So they were filled with all injustice, wicked behavior, greed, and evil behavior. They are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deception, and malice. They are gossips, 30 they slander people, and they hate God. They are rude and proud, and they brag. They invent ways to be evil, and they are disobedient to their parents. 31 They are without understanding, disloyal, without affection, and without mercy. 32 Though they know God’s decision that those who persist in such practices deserve death, they not only keep doing these things but also approve others who practice them.


Here we go again the fourth time with Paul's opening salvo regarding the total depravity of mankind.




Wisdom 14:1 Again, another designing to sail, and beginning to make his voyage through the raging waves, calleth upon a piece of wood more frail than the wood that carrieth him.
2 For this the desire of gain devised, and the workman built it by his skill.
3 But thy providence, O Father, governeth it: for thou hast made a way even in the sea, and a most sure path among the waves,
4 shewing that thou art able to save out of all things, yea though a man went to sea without art.
5 But that the works of thy wisdom might not be idle: therefore men also trust their lives even to a little wood, and passing over the sea by ship are saved.
6 And from the beginning also when the proud giants perished, the hope of the world fleeing to a vessel, which was governed by thy hand, left to the world seed of generation.
7 For blessed is the wood, by which justice cometh.
8 But the idol that is made by hands, is cursed, as well it, as he that made it: he because he made it; and it because being frail it is called a god.
9 But to God the wicked and his wickedness are hateful alike.
10 For that which is made, together with him that made it, shall suffer torments.
11 Therefore there shall be no respect had even to the idols of the Gentiles: because the creatures of God are turned to an abomination, and a temptation to the souls of men, and a snare to the feet of the unwise.
12 For the beginning of fornication is the devising of idols: and the invention of them is the corruption of life.
13 For neither were they from the beginning, neither shall they be for ever.
14 For by the vanity of men they came into the world: and therefore they shall be found to come shortly to an end.
15 For a father being afflicted with bitter grief, made to himself the image of his son who was quickly taken away: and him who then had died as a man, he began now to worship as a god, and appointed him rites and sacrifices among his servants.
16 Then in process of time, wicked custom prevailing, this error was kept as a law, and statues were worshipped by the commandment of tyrants.
17 And those whom men could not honour in presence, because they dwelt far off, they brought their resemblance from afar, and made an express image of the king whom they had a mind to honour: that by this their diligence, they might honour as present, him that was absent.
18 And to worshipping of these, the singular diligence also of the artificer helped to set forward the ignorant.
19 For he being willing to please him that employed him, laboured with all his art to make the resemblance in the best manner.
20 And the multitude of men, carried away by the beauty of the work, took him now for a god that a little before was but honoured as a man.
21 And this was the occasion of deceiving human life: for men serving either their affection, or their kings, gave the incommunicable name to stones and wood.
22 And it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but whereas they lived in a great war of ignorance, they call so many and so great evils peace.
23 For either they sacrifice their own children, or use hidden sacrifices, or keep watches full of madness,
24 So that now they neither keep life, nor marriage undefiled, but one killeth another through envy, or grieveth him by adultery:
25 And all things are mingled together, blood, murder, theft and dissimulation, corruption and unfaithfulness, tumults and perjury, disquieting of the good,
26 Forgetfulness of God, defiling of souls, changing of nature, disorder in marriage, and the irregularity of adultery and uncleanness.
27 For the worship of abominable idols is the cause, and the beginning and end of all evil.
28 For either they are mad when they are merry: or they prophesy lies, or they live unjustly, or easily forswear themselves.
29 For whilst they trust in idols, which are without life, though they swear amiss, they look not to be hurt.
30 But for two things they shall be justly punished, because they have thought not well of God, giving heed to idols, and have sworn unjustly, in guile despising justice.
31 For it is not the power of them, by whom they swear, but the just vengeance of sinners always punisheth the transgression of the unjust.


Here again is Wisdom 14, which is apparently based on Isaiah 44 and, possibly, Psalm 115. It is an expose of idolatry with some brief references to immorality.

 

[crixus]

From personal experience, I've been insulted by Catholics on several occasions. But I ignored it and moved on. I could tell that they were looking for an argument and it was easier to make my point by saying nothing at all. My best friend is Catholic and we've had good conversations about Theology, so I don't blame all Catholics for the actions of some. Amen!

 

[bbbbbbb]

From personal experience, I've been insulted by Catholics on several occasions. But I ignored it and moved on. I could tell that they were looking for an argument and it was easier to make my point by saying nothing at all. My best friend is Catholic and we've had good conversations about Theology, so I don't blame all Catholics for the actions of some. Amen!

Likewise. I have many close friends who happen to be Catholic. I have also been confronted with a few aggressive Catholics, but I know where they are coming from and don't judge all Catholics by their actions.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Moving along, I will proceed on to the thirty-fifth set of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time from Paul -

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

In the fourth chapter of Romans Paul demonstrates an application of justification by faith apart from any works by the life of Abraham. Throughout the Old Testament Abraham is called the father of many nations, even as God had made that promise to him in Genesis 17. Indeed, God changed his name from Abram to Abraham which means faith of many nations.

Sirach 44:19 Abraham was the great ancestor of many nations; his reputation was faultless. 20 He kept the Law of the Most High and made a covenant with him, a covenant marked on his body. When he was put to the test, he was found faithful. 21 And so the Lord made him a solemn promise that his descendants would be a blessing to the world; that their number would be countless, like the dust of the earth; that they would be honored more than any other people on earth; and that their land would extend from sea to sea, from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth.

The passage in Sirach 44 summarizes the longer passage in Genesis 17 and can hardly be considered Paul's inspiration for Romans 4.

 

[Albion]

Likewise. I have many close friends who happen to be Catholic. I have also been confronted with a few aggressive Catholics, but I know where they are coming from and don't judge all Catholics by their actions.

That's true, but perhaps we should return to the topic here and discuss what it is that makes the many who are adversarial act that way.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

That's true, but perhaps we should return to the topic here and discuss what it is that makes the many who are adversarial act that way.

There are wheats and tares in every crowd.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's true, but perhaps we should return to the topic here and discuss what it is that makes the many who are adversarial act that way.

I agree. In my experience much of it stems from deeply-embedded belief that the Catholic Church is the One and Only True Church and that all other churches are counterfeits which have led their members on to the road to perdition.

 

[Albion]

I agree. In my experience much of it stems from deeply-embedded belief that the Catholic Church is the One and Only True Church and that all other churches are counterfeits which have led their members on to the road to perdition.

Good point. That seems probable, i.e. that it's from a false sense of superiority that such hostility arises. Of course, that may be only one explanation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Good point. That seems probable, i.e. that it's from a false sense of superiority that such hostility arises. Of course, that may be only one explanation.

Yes, I have encountered others, as well, but this seems to be the one I most frequently encounter.

 

[Albion]

Yes, I have encountered others, as well, but this seems to be the one I most frequently encounter.

Do you think that there might also be an element of insecurity in operation, too? I mean, we often say that the schoolyard bully acts out of some sense of inferiority, that he has to act important because he has doubts.

 

[tz620q]

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matthew 22:23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, 24 asking, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; 26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 Last of all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.”
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

This is the story about Jesus explaining why there is no marriage in heaven and why the Saducees did not understand it. It entails seven brother who ended up having been married to the same wife.

Tobit 3:7 That same day in the city of Ecbatana in Media, it happened that Sarah, the daughter of a man named Raguel, was insulted by one of her father's servant women. 8 Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. The servant woman said to Sarah,
You husband killer! Look at you! You've already had seven husbands, but not one of them lived long enough to give you a son. 9 Why should you take it out on us? Why don't you go and join your dead husbands? I hope we never see a child of yours!

10 Sarah was so depressed that she burst into tears and went upstairs determined to hang herself. But when she thought it over, she said to herself,
No, I won't do it! People would insult my father and say,
You had only one child, a daughter whom you loved dearly, but she hanged herself because she felt so miserable. Such grief would bring my gray-haired father to his grave, and I would be responsible. I won't kill myself; I'll just beg the Lord to let me die. Then I won't have to listen to those insults any longer!


This is a story about a woman named Sarah and her troubles, having been married to seven brothers consecutively. She was not unlike Hannah, the mother of Samuel, in her misery (see I Samuel 1). This Sarah had a daughter unlike the woman in Matthew who had had no children.

Afterward, Raguel slaughtered a ram from the flock and gave them a warm reception. When they had washed, bathed, and reclined to eat and drink, Tobiah said to Raphael, “Brother Azariah, ask Raguel to give me my kinswoman Sarah.” 10Raguel overheard the words; so he said to the young man: “Eat and drink and be merry tonight, for no man has a greater right to marry my daughter Sarah than you, brother. Besides, not even I have the right to give her to anyone but you, because you are my closest relative. However, son, I must frankly tell you the truth. 11I have given her in marriage to seven husbands who were kinsmen of ours, and all died on the very night they approached her. But now, son, eat and drink. The Lord will look after you both.” Tobiah answered, “I will neither eat nor drink anything here until you settle what concerns me.” Raguel said to him: “I will do it. She is yours as decreed by the Book of Moses. It has been decided in heaven that she be given to you! Take your kinswoman; from now on you are her brother, and she is your sister.* She is given to you today and here ever after. May the Lord of heaven prosper you both tonight, son, and grant you mercy and peace.” 12Then Raguel called his daughter Sarah, and she came to him. He took her by the hand and gave her to Tobiah with these words: “Take her according to the law. According to the decree written in the Book of Moses I give her to be your wife. Take her and bring her safely to your father. And may the God of heaven grant both of you a safe journey in peace!”

This passage is a follow-up to the previous passage where Sarah is remarried to another man.

All of the passages are based on the teaching from the law of Moses concerning Levirate marriage and, thus, take their inspiration from that source.

I see two problems with your analysis. First, Hannah was not married seven times, so the Sadducees could not be referring to her. Second, Sarah did not have a daughter, she was referring to her father commenting on Sarah's suicide and saying that her father would die from the disgrace.

One thing about this whole story in Matthew 22 that I find interesting is that the Sadducees were giving Jesus a hypothetical question that they themselves did not believe in (resurrection of the soul) and they were using a reference to the woman with 7 husbands from a book that they did not accept as Scripture. Yet, Jesus did not say, "Why should I answer this problem? I don't believe in this concept of resurrection of the soul. And by the way, your example comes from a non-canonical book."

This doesn't amount in my eyes to Jesus saying that Tobit is canonical; but then we don't really have any explicit saying by Jesus of the canonicity of any book. If I were playing devil's advocate, I could even say that if Jesus quoted a passage and said, "It is written", he might have merely been using a point of reference in talking to scribes and Pharisees that they would know about and not stating this writing is inspired from God. You see ones opponents can minimize the connections between things much easier than you can defend them. It is after all a matter of faith whether one accepts any of these writings as inspired. Faith comes from hearing and so we are all at the mercy of what we have heard.

 

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I see two problems with your analysis. First, Hannah was not married seven times, so the Sadducees could not be referring to her. Second, Sarah did not have a daughter, she was referring to her father commenting on Sarah's suicide and saying that her father would die from the disgrace.

One thing about this whole story in Matthew 22 that I find interesting is that the Sadducees were giving Jesus a hypothetical question that they themselves did not believe in (resurrection of the soul) and they were using a reference to the woman with 7 husbands from a book that they did not accept as Scripture. Yet, Jesus did not say, "Why should I answer this problem? I don't believe in this concept of resurrection of the soul. And by the way, your example comes from a non-canonical book."

This doesn't amount in my eyes to Jesus saying that Tobit is canonical; but then we don't really have any explicit saying by Jesus of the canonicity of any book. If I were playing devil's advocate, I could even say that if Jesus quoted a passage and said, "It is written", he might have merely been using a point of reference in talking to scribes and Pharisees that they would know about and not stating this writing is inspired from God. You see ones opponents can minimize the connections between things much easier than you can defend them. It is after all a matter of faith whether one accepts any of these writings as inspired. Faith comes from hearing and so we are all at the mercy of what we have heard.

My point was that childlessness in Jewish culture was a source of utter misery, especially for the woman who bore the blame. In that regard, Hannah's misery was similar to that of Sarah. I don't think for a moment that the Sadducees were referring to Hannah, or anyone else, for that matter. They were springing a hypothetical case which would prove their own non-belief in the resurrection of people.

The point still remains that one cannot say absolutely that the passage in Tobit was being cited in the passage in Luke. I am glad we agree on this.