Why are so many against reformed theology?

[BBAS 64]

The words are interchangeable in conveying that it appears to be.

I'd go with ἔγνων (egnōn) to come to know, recognize, perceive.

I already answered that question from the reformed point of view as I understand it. Aside from reformed theology, several factors come into play.

Good day,

Yes Jesus never put in the effort to come to know them, he never enter a relationship with them. .... Agreed

Ok what are the factors that you see?

In Him,

Bill

 

[FenderTL5]

I guess that would depend on what is meant by "total" I think the article I post by RC addresses that.

An altered definition of total doesn't change what was stated. Total Depravity/Radical Corruption makes no difference as applied to Reformed/Calvinistic thought. It still renders all unable to choose anything other than darkness.. except for the elect for whom it's no longer as radical or total or whatever definition you'd rather use.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Good day,

I would say if he withholds it from one he has the free will to withhold it from all if that pleases him.

But we know he does not and that is Amazing Grace.

I will have Mercy on whom I have Mercy.

I am sure he would have a purpose in doing so yes, and that purpose is defacto' good and loving.

In Him,
Bill

I understand that argument. I've heard it before from MacArthur and Paul Washer etc. But it doesn't seem particularly logical.

 

[FenderTL5]

That doesn't address the crux of the problem most Christians have with reformed theology thorough, which is predestination.

I agree with your premise. Sproul says, "God chooses to sovereignly bestow His grace on some sinners and withhold His grace from other sinners.."
In reformed/Calvinistic thought, He/God then holds sinners accountable for what He/God did not do.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Good day,

Yes Jesus never put in the effort to come to know them, he never enter a relationship with them. .... Agreed

That's not what I'm saying, so we are not in agreement. My interpretation they, of their own volition never put the effort in coming to know Jesus. In choosing the narrow gate and preferring the wide path.

Ok what are the factors that you see?

Probably the same ones others see. I'm too tired right now to write the essay that would be required to go through it. But I will say those factors don't fit into reformed theology if that's where you're going, because reformed theology renders those factors moot. It appears according to reformed theology, there are only two factors; predestined for eternal paradise and predestined for eternal torment.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Am I the only one who thinks too many take too much of the Bible literally?
Not only Genesis but even the Epistles and portions of the Gospels.

 

[Aaron112]

Am I the only one who thinks too many take too much of the Bible literally?
Not only Genesis but even the Epistles and portions of the Gospels.

The only one ? No, not by a long shot.
Both believers and unbelievers, saved and unsaved, have many in their camps who may take the whole Bible literally and
still it is written of them that they know neither the Scripture nor the Power of the Creator.
So in any case, God Willing, you with them get to pick and /or choose what camp you go with, possibly at least you will have many in your company believing as you do.

 

[Jamdoc]

Or, (not knowing the details of different groups about this)
God Created men to live His Life.
He saves all men who obey Him.
He would save the others also, if they would obey Him, but they refuse.
So God would that all men be healed/ saved,
but left free will in them so they could choose not to obey Him if they wanted to do that , whether wittingly or unwittingly; knowingly or unknowingly.

i.e. He chose to create people , His people suffer necessarily but gain eternal life in Jesus; not His people suffer more or less on earth, but do not gain eternal life as they do not become living souls abiding in Jesus God's Way.

Nobody obeys Him. There are none good no not one.

Reform theology does correctly assert that God chooses, however there are still open ended statements in the bible that lead to man also having a choice. If God's choice does not allow for man's choice, then God has arbitrarily chosen whether people were created to be forgiven, or suffer eternally. You now have a God who has created people just to torture them forever because He made the choice to pass them by and not grant them faith and repentance and they were powerless to do anything about it themselves.

Does God have the right to do that? Absolutely
Can God claim open ended invitations such as the bible does? No. he would be a liar in doing so.
If God has 100% of the choice involved then He cannot claim to will that all come to repentance. Because He chose some to suffer, He acted against His own will if it were true.
If however God chooses those who would choose Him, and does not choose those who would never choose Him, then God is acting in His will to save all those who could be saved, the rest simply refuse no matter what. God's election then becomes based on foreknowledge, rather than just arbitrarily "this person gets saved, this person I'm going to torture forever just because"

 

[BobRyan]

Does God desire all men to be saved....

RC Sproul:

Let's ask God

2 Peter 3 "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that all should come to repentance"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD"

 

[Aaron112]

Nobody obeys Him.

I obey Jesus totally willingly by and in the Grace from the Father in heaven,
I hear Jesus' Voice in spirit and in truth daily, most of my life,
and I follow Jesus wherever He goes or leads me as The Shepherd - He Is Faithful and Truth , though all men may be liars.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Am I the only one who thinks too many take too much of the Bible literally?
Not only Genesis but even the Epistles and portions of the Gospels.

As opposed to what, viewing it as satire?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

As opposed to what, viewing it as satire?

As opposed to viewing it as writings from the perspective of men in their own times and understanding.
Viewing it less as God's dictated verbatim and more as theological reflection of a particular time, place and culture.

 

[Aaron112]

Viewing it less as God's dictated verbatim and more as theological reflection of a particular time, place and culture.

Any chance you could understand The Creator hating 'theology' ?

What are the seven things God hates? | GotQuestions.org

What are the seven things God hates? What does God hate the sins listed in Proverbs 6:16-19?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Jamdoc]

I obey Jesus totally willingly by and in the Grace from the Father in heaven,
I hear Jesus' Voice in spirit and in truth daily, most of my life,
and I follow Jesus wherever He goes or leads me as The Shepherd - He Is Faithful and Truth , though all men may be liars.

Everyone.
Literally everyone,
is or was a son of disobedience. Nobody gets saved by being obedient.
The only difference between you, and someone who is condemned to hell forever, is a choice God made to save you.

The argument of Calvinism and Arminianism is largely, why God makes that choice. Calvinist.. well it's just arbitrary, God decided to have mercy on you and create other people to suffer forever just because He can apparently.

 

[Aaron112]

just because He can apparently.

At least you did say "apparently".
Better would be to ask if He Will Reveal to you in His Word the Truth.

 

[Ceallaigh]

As opposed to viewing it as writings from the perspective of men in their own times and understanding.
Viewing it less as God's dictated verbatim and more as theological reflection of a particular time, place and culture.

How does that apply to reformed theology?

 

[Fervent]

As opposed to viewing it as writings from the perspective of men in their own times and understanding.
Viewing it less as God's dictated verbatim and more as theological reflection of a particular time, place and culture.

That's a slippery slope, which easily leads to cherry picking and editing out the inconvenient bits.

 

[Ceallaigh]

That's a slippery slope, which easily leads to cherry picking and editing out the inconvenient bits.

I've come across liberal Christians who want to eliminate all the "clobber verses" that talk about repenting, abstaining, obeying, discipline et al.

 

[John Helpher]

I wouldn't say I'm against it, but some of it isn't consistent with what Jesus taught. For example, Jesus taught his followers to keep their praying, fasting, and charity-giving secret. It's not only reformed Christians who ignore those teachings; it's pretty much all of professing Christendom.

 

[BBAS 64]

That's not what I'm saying, so we are not in agreement. My interpretation they, of their own volition never put the effort in coming to know Jesus. In choosing the narrow gate and preferring the wide path.

Probably the same ones others see. I'm too tired right now to write the essay that would be required to go through it. But I will say those factors don't fit into reformed theology if that's where you're going, because reformed theology renders those factors moot. It appears according to reformed theology, there are only two factors; predestined for eternal paradise and predestined for eternal torment.

Good day, Ordinary Christian

Thanks for the discussion, I am not sure how grammatically you come to your interpretation...

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The verb (Knew) clearly Jesus himself says did not do. " I never knew you" He said it to them.

The text is very clear IMHO.

What you describe here is known as Double predestination.

I would contend the Scripture is clear the sinner does not need any thing to end up in eternal torment he goes based on his own sin.

RC cover that here: Is Double Predestination Biblical?

Not sure if you have read this on the issue: Martin Luther: Double Or Nothing


Thanks again.

In Him,

Bill