Once more Bob for your edification:
The Reformed view of election, known as unconditional election, means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save.
It's not God's fault you love sin so much when He allows you to follow your own desires..
Is it the parents fault if their kid turns out to be a bad apple after providing them a good home with good examples?
Plenty of people with perfectly normal childhoods grow up and get hooked on drugs, in prison, rapists or murderers, drunks or otherwise messed up adults - the nice guy next door who turns out to be some psychopath...
Should we hold then the parents to account, instead of him?
Or are we just in saying the man should be punished for his own actions - that he freely made?
If it's just in saying those guilty should be punished - the only thing that seems unjust would be that God saves anyone...
And that is where we see God's mercy.. Because God is both just and merciful, one cannot be separated from the other..
but to pretend Hes not also the Sovereign over creation, is to make Him no God at all..
NO you won't put down your flawed presuppositionalism argument. predestination is found all through the bible Bob and Jeremiah 29:11 debunks the idea that God's plans for anything to include his choice of the elect and the plans for them is somehow arbitrary just because God does not tell you why and how he determined to save the elect. He did it according to the whole counsel of his will and he did so before the foundation of the world and that is all you need to know and that is something you need to accept because it is 100% biblically accurate.Standard non-answer - I.E. "you just don't understand".
The word hell was just an example of how when we read in English we most often use westernized thinking instead of applying Greek thought from the original language. That is the problem many folks make when eisegeting the word of God instead of exegeting it. Understanding how Greek grammar, and Hebrew grammar for that matter, works will greatly increase your biblical understanding of the context when you read a passage in the bible.
Matthew 25:v.41
41 Then shall JESUS say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting FIRE, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:
that phrase is Aionion tou PYR (Everlasting fire) it is not Hades nor is it limnene tou pyros but it does describe what the lake for fire is because it is an attribute thereof but that fire isn't a literal fire like some erroneously assert.
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Did you read my post 213? I’m anxious to discuss how God’s judgement on the unelected can be considered a justified judgement.that phrase is Aionion tou PYR (Everlasting fire) it is not Hades nor is it limnene tou pyros but it does describe what the lake for fire is because it is an attribute thereof but that fire isn't a literal fire like some erroneously assert.
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God did not look down into the future and see who would choose him and then elect them from that premise.
Do you know what kind of FIRE is that?
Yes but I really need to know how understanding the Greek helps me to see how John 15:1-10 doesn’t contradict eternal security because I’ve already studied the Greek words and found them to be even more evidence in support of conditional salvation. So I’m very interesting to know exactly which Greek words I appear to be misunderstanding here.
Since he already KNEW THAT NOBODY would "choose Him", since without HIS INTERVENTION, NOBODY COMES to a saving relationship with Him. If HE doesn't draw - we stay lost.
I never expected anything else. Standard "explanation": "You don't understand".And so this thread shakes out they way they always do, with 6-12 Calvinists ganging up on 2-3 non-Calvinists
Be more specific about John 6.God only draws the elect, no one else. Those he elected before the foundation of the world began WILL COME to Jesus. John 6
Its not the refiner's fire, because there is no chance for salvation and a holy relationship with God after the white throne judgment. That salvation and holy relationship is required to begin while one is still living in this physical world.Do you know what kind of FIRE is that?
What about it? John 6:37-65 tell us that the father effectually draws the elect to the messiah and all of those whom he draws he has already given to the messiah via his act of predestination before the foundation of the world began and all who he gives to Jesus will come to him and he won't lose a single one of them except the son of perdition. So not only do we see predestination we also see the assurance of salvation.Be more specific about John 6.
No matter what any other post says, this one is both necessary and real and TRUTH!Its not the refiner's fire, because there is no chance for salvation and a holy relationship with God after the white throne judgment. That salvation and holy relationship is required to begin while one is still living in this physical world.
Can you prove your statement?
"EXCEPT" but I guess holding on to 11 out of 12 is still pretty good odds.What about it? John 6:37-65 tell us that the father effectually draws the elect to the messiah and all of those whom he draws he has already given to the messiah via his act of predestination before the foundation of the world began and all who he gives to Jesus will come to him and he won't lose a single one of them except the son of perdition. So not only do we see predestination we also see the assurance of salvation.
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