Why are so many against reformed Theology…

[1Reformedman]

Romans 11:20-21
"Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you (baptized Christian) either."

John 15:6
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

That word abide means to remain. Interesting that when Paul reminds Christians that their condition and position cannot be expected to be permanent, he uses the exact same analogy that Christ does about one being a branch that can be cast from the vine.

Hebrews 6:4-7
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned."

You're right that scripture confirms itself.

These people he's referring to THOUGHT that they were Christians.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Agreed, that Matthew 7 passage has to do with what Jesus says at the judgment to those who thought they were believers, but never truly had a relationship with Jesus. So they were not casting out demons, or healing or prophesying in his Name even though it seems they believed they were.

Because he didn't know them, relationally, they don't have his authority to prophesy, cast out demons or heal in his name. Jesus was very clear when he said I know my sheep and my sheep follow me. Matthew 7:21-23 is a perfect example of the false teachers in the world and these are the same group of people as we find in the parable of the tares and the wheat. The tares are false teachers and believers.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Yes that is what adbide means but we must see context as well. abide can also mean that you do so because of who you are positionally with God.

If Jesus meant that, he would have taught it. He instead taught something totally different.

 

[renniks]

No that’s not true.

So control doesn't mean control?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Agreed, that Matthew 7 passage has to do with what Jesus says at the judgment to those who thought they were believers, but never truly had a relationship with Jesus. So they were not casting out demons, or healing or prophesying in his Name even though it seems they believed they were.

They ignored his commandments and what he taught them caused them to become Christians and therefore have the authority of the name they were adopted into. It wasn't because they didn't just happen to be of the predestined group chosen to be saved. It was their failure to heed his commands.

 

[1Reformedman]

Then you are calling Jesus himself a liar. Shame on you.

John 12:23-33
"Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.



According to his foreknowledge. There is no place in the scriptures where it says that he created every soul beforehand having chosen that it should be saved or not saved at that time. That is an absurd reading of Romans that cannot be supported by the text itself. The logical conclusion one has to draw from such an assertion is that there is absolutely no need whatsoever to preach the gospel. Not only is this patently unnecessary, the "good news" is no good news at all.



That is not what it means to be impartial. The impartiality of God means that there is no pre-determined choice on his part as to who can obey him and therefore receive his righteousness. All are given the equal opportunity to obey the gospel and this has never changed. It was so under the law of Moses also.

Ezekiel 18:24-27
"Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. (Not because I predestined him to die)

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. (Because he has obeyed, not because I pre-selected him)

Calvinism is in and of itself blasphemy. It calls God a liar and arbitrary.

The John 12 passage is about Christ drawing all people for judgment. All people are drawn to the judgment. All people are not draw unto salvation. You are conflating the father drawing and giving the elect to Jesus effectually in His timing with the false idea that you have free will choice unto salvation and you erroneously try to tie the verse in John 12 to that. YOU took that passage OUT of context. This verse is about christ drawing all to him in the resurrection of the dead unto the judgment seat of Christ or the white throne judgment. Keywords IF I BE LIFTED UP. LIfted up to where? Resurrected and ascended to sit at the right hand of the father that's where.

 

[1Reformedman]

They ignored his commandments and what he taught them caused them to become Christians and therefore have the authority of the name they were adopted into. It wasn't because they didn't just happen to be of the predestined group chosen to be saved. It was their failure to heed his commands.

wrong There is not a single command that contains within it your natural moral ability to obey it. You are assuming an ability that is not contained in a command.

Here's a for instance:
I command you to build an atom bomb.

What part of that command gives you the natural moral ability to build that bomb? NOTHING, that's what.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Uh that English word Devouring in the Hebrew is the word Akal and it means to entirely consume.



John 15 does not teach you don't have eternal security and John 15 is not the entire bible so synergists who take that chapter and create contradictions with the rest of the bible that is clear indication of eisegeting not exegeting the whole word of God. Scripture backs up scripture.

Then by all means let’s compare scriptures. You explain the 3 scriptures I posted and pick your top 3 scriptures that you believe supports eternal security and I will explain them and we’ll see who has the better discernment.

 

[1Reformedman]

Then by all means let’s compare scriptures. You explain the 3 scriptures I posted and pick your top 3 scriptures that you believe supports eternal security and I will explain them and we’ll see who has the better discernment.

fact remains you took it out of context. If you dont want to look at it yourself I cant help you.

 

[1Reformedman]

If Jesus meant that, he would have taught it. He instead taught something totally different.

says you with youe eisgeteing .

 

[BNR32FAN]

fact remains you took it out of context. If you dont want to look at it yourself I cant help you.

Ok here’s me looking at it myself with my own lengthy commentary on John 15.

John 15 explained in the proper context with the proper translations. So many people who believe in eternal security get way off course when they hit this stumbling block. This is because John 15:1-6 refutes the doctrine of eternal security. In order to understand this passage of scripture you have to really look at the context as well as the Greek definitions of the keys words used here. First I’ll start with the context. Who is Jesus speaking to? This message takes place right after the Last Supper. Judas has already left the upper room to go and betray Jesus and Jesus and His faithful 11 apostles are walking to Gethsemane late at night. So according to the scriptures only Jesus and His faithful 11 apostles are present during this message. So let’s examine Jesus’ message. I’m going to use the NLT version which I know many people will say is inaccurate but I will show you by the definition of the Greek words used that in this particular case the NLT is actually more accurate than the KJV,ASV,and ESV with one exception. In verse 9 the NLT adds the word “true” in front of the word “disciples”. I have removed the word “true” because it is not in the original Greek text and it is not my intention to add anything to the original text in order to support my position in this discussion. So let’s continue.


““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”

John 15:1-10 NLT


First let’s examine verses 1 & 2.


““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.”

John 15:1-2 NLT


The Father “cuts off” every branch “of mine” that doesn’t produce fruit. Before we look at cuts off notice Jesus says “of mine”. These branches are believers. They are already grafted into the vine. We will see more evidence of this later in my explanation. So let’s look at the full definition of the Greek word used for the term “cuts off” which is aírō (G142).


Definition

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease


Notice the bold letters in the definition. To take off or away what is attached to anything. The branch is attached to the vine. When the Greek word aírō is used in reference to something that is attached to something the correct definition is removed or detached. The term taken away is also used which still implies the same thing. If someone is taken away from the vine (Jesus) they become detached or removed from Him which cannot result in salvation. Let’s continue there’s plenty more evidence to confirm this

 

[BNR32FAN]

fact remains you took it out of context. If you dont want to look at it yourself I cant help you.

Continued

“You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.”

John 15:3-4 NLT


Here Jesus is saying to His 11 faithful apostles “remain in Me” “YOU cannot be fruitful UNLESS YOU remain in Me”. Now look at the implications here. These are very powerful words. Jesus is directing this message to His 11 faithful apostles whom we know without a doubt that Jesus knew they believed according to John 6:64. Jesus is implying that there is a possibility that they can fail to abide or remain in Him. According to the doctrine of eternal security this means Jesus is warning His apostles of doing something that is impossible for them to do. Why would Jesus warn them to abide in Him if they are incapable of falling away? Jesus knew they still have free will and they needed this message to stay the course. Notice in the first verse of the very next chapter while they are still walking to Gethsemane Jesus says to them ““These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble.”

John 16:1”. Let’s continue.


““Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing.”

John 15:5 NLT


Two key things to focus on here. Those who remain in Jesus WILL PRODUCE MUCH FRUIT. Not might produce or may or can produce some fruit. Will produce much fruit. It is inevitable absolutely will happen of course if given the opportunity. The thief on the cross is an example of someone who didn’t have much of an opportunity to produce fruit or do good works. He did defend Jesus against the other criminals who were mocking Jesus. So he did produce some fruit but he was pretty limited considering he was nailed to a cross. But for those who have the capability to produce fruit and do not they will face the consequences of verses 2 and 6. Now the second point of focus is “apart from Me YOU can do nothing”. According to eternal security the apostles can’t be apart from Him because of 1 John 2:19.


“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

1 John 2:19 KJV


So how does this make sense? Very easy 1 John 2:19 is speaking of antichrists as we can see in verse 18.


“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

1 John 2:18 KJV


So what’s the difference between those who don’t abide and antichrists? Well antichrists lie and deny that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and God Himself. Antichrists try to deceive people about Jesus and The Father. That’s very different from what we’re seeing here in a John 15. John 15 is about becoming lukewarm. Only believers can become lukewarm because nonbelievers were never hot with passion for Christ to begin with. 1 John 2:19 only tells us that true believers will never be antichrists. It doesn’t say that true believers cannot fail to abide in Christ. Ok let’s proceed to verse 6 in John 15.


“Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”

John 15:6 NLT


Now many who teach the doctrine of eternal security will say this is a parallel verse to 1 Corinthians 3:15. That is not correct. In 1 Cor 3:15 Paul is taking about believers who are “building” on the foundation of Christ. They are doing works. 1 Cor 3:15 is not about believers who are not doing works. John 15:1-10 is about believers who are not doing works. Maybe they were then stopped or maybe they’re new to their faith and haven’t started. I don’t know. I don’t see any indication in the scriptures. The bottom line is they’re not doing works. In 1 Cor 3 Paul is explaining how both he and Apollos did the work God assigned them and both will be rewarded according to their deeds. Their works will be tested by fire to see if it has any value. Whether their works have any value or not the builder will still be saved either way. By having value means did it bring glory to God. I don’t want to get too far into discussing 1 Cor 3 because this is getting long and a bit off track. Anyone can clearly see it is only referring to believers who have done works. So let’s look at the Greek definition of the word bállō (G906) which is translated to cast or throw which means


1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids

1) to pour, pour into of rivers

2) to pour out

2) to put into, insert


Grammar:

a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare ῥίπτω.


Basically it means to carelessly throw down or thrust in a violent or intense manner without regard.


Next let’s look at the word wither which is translated from the Greek word xēraínō (G3583)


1) to make dry, dry up, wither

2) to become dry, to be dry, be withered a) of plants b) of the ripening of crops c) of fluids d) of the members of the body

3) to waste away, pine away, i.e. a withered hand


To dry up or waste away.


Lastly let’s look at the definition of the word burned translated from the Greek word kaíō (G2545) which means


1) to set on fire, light, burning

2) to burn, consume with fire


Pretty basic definition as you would expect.


So let’s review and put it all into perspective. So we have Jesus warning His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him even explaining the consequences of failing to abide while the doctrine of eternal security suggests it is impossible for the faithful 11 not to abide, at least not unto the point of loss of salvation. But look at the consequences Jesus described in the proper translation. They are cut off or removed from the vine (Jesus). That in itself cannot result in salvation without repentance. They are cast or thrown away (carelessly violently intensely without regard) to wither (dry up and waste away) then thrown (again carelessly violently intensely without regard) into the fire to be burned (set on fire or consumed by fire). For anyone who questions the definitions I’ve provided for these words you can search it for yourself using the Strong’s concordance reference numbers I provided. Just google Strong’s concordance then type in the letter and number and you can see the definitions for yourself. I provided the number right after the Greek transliteration. For example search “Strong’s Concordance G142 and you’ll get the information for the Greek word aírō which means to take away, lift up, etc. If you question whether or not these are the correct Greek words in the scriptures just google John 15 Greek Interlinear and you can see the original Greek texts with translations and the Strong’s Concordance reference numbers. Here’s a link to make it easier. KJV w/ Strong's Concordance - John 15

 

[BNR32FAN]

fact remains you took it out of context. If you dont want to look at it yourself I cant help you.

I take it that’s a no then?

 

[Al Touthentop]

The John 12 passage is about Christ drawing all people for judgment.

That is pretext. We know that Jesus told his disciples that he did not come here to condemn or Judge the world but to save it. Here, he says that if he is crucified, he will draw (call) all people to himself. He has already explained to Peter and the apostles that being called, is not the same as being chosen. It is in one's obedience that one becomes chosen.

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

What does Jesus say the difference between being called and granted? Obedience. That word therefore is essentially "in conclusion." He's explaining his meaning. What puts us in true relationship with God, is our obedience. Our obedience is what "grants" our relationship.

In another place Jesus says, "many are called, few are chosen." The choosing comes from our obedience to God. We are chosen when we obey, we are not chosen to obey.

All people are drawn to the judgment. All people are not draw unto salvation.

Well then, we have to argue with Jesus himself who says that EVERYONE, saints and sinners alike will be together on the Judgement Day. How did they all get there if they weren't drawn?

You are conflating the father drawing and giving the elect to Jesus effectually in His timing with the false idea that you have free will choice unto salvation

The elect are those who obeyed. We are given free will. If we're not given free will, then God is not a just God at all. He is a just God however, and this idea that he predetermines who is saved and who isn't by his own arbitrary Sovereignty, is blasphemy against God who said he does not do such a thing.

Now you could argue further by claiming that God is all powerful and if he wanted to do such a thing he has the sovereignty to do so, and you would be correct in a sense. However, the entire Old Testament is his own instruction on just what is righteous and what is not. And that sort of righteousness (arbitrary and partial) was the reason he gave for destroying entire nations. And you want people to believe that his multiple millennia of teaching AGAINST such unrighteous judgement is of no consequence? Because God is above his own instruction to us? In other words, he never REALLY valued impartial judgement and mercy, he was lying about this the whole time?

Why? To trick us into thinking he was good? You really have a poor opinion of God. Do you realize that?

This verse is about christ drawing all to him in the resurrection of the dead unto the judgment seat of Christ or the white throne judgment. Keywords IF I BE LIFTED UP. LIfted up to where? Resurrected and ascended to sit at the right hand of the father that's where.

All you had to do was read the end of that passage and you would know what he was talking about. It says explicitly that he was referring to his SACRIFICE, how he would be put to death. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the scripture itself.

 

[1Reformedman]

Continued

“You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.”

John 15:3-4 NLT


Here Jesus is saying to His 11 faithful apostles “remain in Me” “YOU cannot be fruitful UNLESS YOU remain in Me”. Now look at the implications here. These are very powerful words. Jesus is directing this message to His 11 faithful apostles whom we know without a doubt that Jesus knew they believed according to John 6:64. Jesus is implying that there is a possibility that they can fail to abide or remain in Him. According to the doctrine of eternal security this means Jesus is warning His apostles of doing something that is impossible for them to do. Why would Jesus warn them to abide in Him if they are incapable of falling away? Jesus knew they still have free will and they needed this message to stay the course. Notice in the first verse of the very next chapter while they are still walking to Gethsemane Jesus says to them ““These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble.”

John 16:1”. Let’s continue.


““Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing.”

John 15:5 NLT


Two key things to focus on here. Those who remain in Jesus WILL PRODUCE MUCH FRUIT. Not might produce or may or can produce some fruit. Will produce much fruit. It is inevitable absolutely will happen of course if given the opportunity. The thief on the cross is an example of someone who didn’t have much of an opportunity to produce fruit or do good works. He did defend Jesus against the other criminals who were mocking Jesus. So he did produce some fruit but he was pretty limited considering he was nailed to a cross. But for those who have the capability to produce fruit and do not they will face the consequences of verses 2 and 6. Now the second point of focus is “apart from Me YOU can do nothing”. According to eternal security the apostles can’t be apart from Him because of 1 John 2:19.


“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

1 John 2:19 KJV


So how does this make sense? Very easy 1 John 2:19 is speaking of antichrists as we can see in verse 18.


“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

1 John 2:18 KJV


So what’s the difference between those who don’t abide and antichrists? Well antichrists lie and deny that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and God Himself. Antichrists try to deceive people about Jesus and The Father. That’s very different from what we’re seeing here in a John 15. John 15 is about becoming lukewarm. Only believers can become lukewarm because nonbelievers were never hot with passion for Christ to begin with. 1 John 2:19 only tells us that true believers will never be antichrists. It doesn’t say that true believers cannot fail to abide in Christ. Ok let’s proceed to verse 6 in John 15.


“Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”

John 15:6 NLT


Now many who teach the doctrine of eternal security will say this is a parallel verse to 1 Corinthians 3:15. That is not correct. In 1 Cor 3:15 Paul is taking about believers who are “building” on the foundation of Christ. They are doing works. 1 Cor 3:15 is not about believers who are not doing works. John 15:1-10 is about believers who are not doing works. Maybe they were then stopped or maybe they’re new to their faith and haven’t started. I don’t know. I don’t see any indication in the scriptures. The bottom line is they’re not doing works. In 1 Cor 3 Paul is explaining how both he and Apollos did the work God assigned them and both will be rewarded according to their deeds. Their works will be tested by fire to see if it has any value. Whether their works have any value or not the builder will still be saved either way. By having value means did it bring glory to God. I don’t want to get too far into discussing 1 Cor 3 because this is getting long and a bit off track. Anyone can clearly see it is only referring to believers who have done works. So let’s look at the Greek definition of the word bállō (G906) which is translated to cast or throw which means


1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids

1) to pour, pour into of rivers

2) to pour out

2) to put into, insert


Grammar:

a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare ῥίπτω.


Basically it means to carelessly throw down or thrust in a violent or intense manner without regard.


Next let’s look at the word wither which is translated from the Greek word xēraínō (G3583)


1) to make dry, dry up, wither

2) to become dry, to be dry, be withered a) of plants b) of the ripening of crops c) of fluids d) of the members of the body

3) to waste away, pine away, i.e. a withered hand


To dry up or waste away.


Lastly let’s look at the definition of the word burned translated from the Greek word kaíō (G2545) which means


1) to set on fire, light, burning

2) to burn, consume with fire


Pretty basic definition as you would expect.


So let’s review and put it all into perspective. So we have Jesus warning His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him even explaining the consequences of failing to abide while the doctrine of eternal security suggests it is impossible for the faithful 11 not to abide, at least not unto the point of loss of salvation. But look at the consequences Jesus described in the proper translation. They are cut off or removed from the vine (Jesus). That in itself cannot result in salvation without repentance. They are cast or thrown away (carelessly violently intensely without regard) to wither (dry up and waste away) then thrown (again carelessly violently intensely without regard) into the fire to be burned (set on fire or consumed by fire). For anyone who questions the definitions I’ve provided for these words you can search it for yourself using the Strong’s concordance reference numbers I provided. Just google Strong’s concordance then type in the letter and number and you can see the definitions for yourself. I provided the number right after the Greek transliteration. For example search “Strong’s Concordance G142 and you’ll get the information for the Greek word aírō which means to take away, lift up, etc. If you question whether or not these are the correct Greek words in the scriptures just google John 15 Greek Interlinear and you can see the original Greek texts with translations and the Strong’s Concordance reference numbers. Here’s a link to make it easier. KJV w/ Strong's Concordance - John 15

Jesus said very clearly that all the father gives him will not be lost. So when one is saved that person's faith will cause him to endure to the end. You are not taking all of the bible into consideration when you are looking at John 15. Oh, and its unadvisable to use the concordance basic meanings of words as if they always mean only one thing because that is not how Greek thought, grammar and their language works.

 

[1Reformedman]

I take it that’s a no then?

Take it as I'm not going to waste my time. You are looking at only one chapter and ignoring the rest of the bible.

 

[1Reformedman]

That is pretext. We know that Jesus told his disciples that he did not come here to condemn or Judge the world but to save it. Here, he says that if he is crucified, he will draw (call) all people to himself. He has already explained to Peter and the apostles that being called, is not the same as being chosen. It is in one's obedience that one becomes chosen.

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

What does Jesus say the difference between being called and granted? Obedience. That word therefore is essentially "in conclusion." He's explaining his meaning. What puts us in true relationship with God, is our obedience. Our obedience is what "grants" our relationship.

In another place Jesus says, "many are called, few are chosen." The choosing comes from our obedience to God. We are chosen when we obey, we are not chosen to obey.



Well then, we have to argue with Jesus himself who says that EVERYONE, saints and sinners alike will be together on the Judgement Day. How did they all get there if they weren't drawn?




The elect are those who obeyed. We are given free will. If we're not given free will, then God is not a just God at all. He is a just God however, and this idea that he predetermines who is saved and who isn't by his own arbitrary Sovereignty, is blasphemy against God who said he does not do such a thing.

Now you could argue further by claiming that God is all powerful and if he wanted to do such a thing he has the sovereignty to do so, and you would be correct in a sense. However, the entire Old Testament is his own instruction on just what is righteous and what is not. And that sort of righteousness (arbitrary and partial) was the reason he gave for destroying entire nations. And you want people to believe that his multiple millennia of teaching AGAINST such unrighteous judgement is of no consequence? Because God is above his own instruction to us? In other words, he never REALLY valued impartial judgement and mercy, he was lying about this the whole time?

Why? To trick us into thinking he was good? You really have a poor opinion of God. Do you realize that?



All you had to do was read the end of that passage and you would know what he was talking about. It says explicitly that he was referring to his SACRIFICE, how he would be put to death. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the scripture itself.

The whole world isn't saved and that is where you are going out of context. so you should take that into account when you read so you can grasp the context. God draws the elect our out of every tribe, nation and people group!! Rev. 7:9

 

[Al Touthentop]

wrong There is not a single command that contains within it your natural moral ability to obey it. You are assuming an ability that is not contained in a command.

If God gives you a command, then it is because he knows that you are capable of obeying it. He created you. A God who would make you incapable of obeying his commands and then punish you for not obeying his command is a tyrant, not a benevolent loving God. You don't see how the doctrine you've swallowed is utter blasphemy to God?

Here's a for instance:
I command you to build an atom bomb.

What part of that command gives you the natural moral ability to build that bomb? NOTHING, that's what.

You're right. And the reason that I won't obey that command has nothing to do with my moral authority but yours. You have no moral authority to order me to do anything. I won't obey, not because I don't have any power to, but because you have no authority to command it.

Part of what you're saying involves the illogical and untruthful doctrine of "total depravity" or original sin. But God does not charge the sin of the fathers on the sons. He says that explicitly in Ezekiel. To say otherwise is to call him a liar. And then we have Jesus calling Abel, the son of Adam, righteous.

“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood[n] of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

And what was he saying that would bring all of this righteous blood shed on their heads? Not those previous murders but their murder of the prophets he was going to send them. He just knew what they were going to do. He knew they were going to murder him too. The significance here is not only is he telling them that they will in the future bring that blood on their heads by committing it, but that Abel, who should have been created with the inability to be righteous, was called righteous. Apparently, Jesus didn't get the memo that man could not obey him.

 

[Al Touthentop]

The whole world isn't saved and that is where you are going out of context.

I provided the exactly the context you are complaining I left out, which says exactly what you are asserting here. Maybe you need to re-read it.

 

[Albion]

If God gives you a command, then it is because he knows that you are capable of obeying it. He created you. A God who would make you incapable of obeying his commands and then punish you for not obeying his command is a tyrant, not a benevolent loving God. You don't see how the doctrine you've swallowed is utter blasphemy to God?

No, but I do see how you have misunderstood all of that.

God can indeed give commandments. Man is indeed capable of keeping God's commandments.

None of that, however, is about God saving anyone.

Yet God also says he will save, so this thread is a discussion about that.

 

[1Reformedman]

If God gives you a command, then it is because he knows that you are capable of obeying it. He created you. A God who would make you incapable of obeying his commands and then punish you for not obeying his command is a tyrant, not a benevolent loving God. You don't see how the doctrine you've swallowed is utter blasphemy to God?



You're right. And the reason that I won't obey that command has nothing to do with my moral authority but yours. You have no moral authority to order me to do anything. I won't obey, not because I don't have any power to, but because you have no authority to command it.

Part of what you're saying involves the illogical and untruthful doctrine of "total depravity" or original sin. But God does not charge the sin of the fathers on the sons. He says that explicitly in Ezekiel. To say otherwise is to call him a liar. And then we have Jesus calling Abel, the son of Adam, righteous.

“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood[n] of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

And what was he saying that would bring all of this righteous blood shed on their heads? Not those previous murders but their murder of the prophets he was going to send them. He just knew what they were going to do. He knew they were going to murder him too. The significance here is not only is he telling them that they will in the future bring that blood on their heads by committing it, but that Abel, who should have been created with the inability to be righteous, was called righteous. Apparently, Jesus didn't get the memo that man could not obey him.

Im going to give you a command and I want you to tell me where in that command do you get your natural moral ability to obey that command.

I command you to build an atom bomb.

Where in that command do you find the natural moral ability to obey that command?


YOU DONT BECAUSE ITS NOT FOUND THERE. You are assuming that you are able without evidence to back it. . . You see, God commands us to believe but the ability to obey that command does not come from your natural moral ability but instead, it comes from the Grace of God in regeneration. You cant see the kingdom of God let alone enter is UNTIL you are born again.

John 3:16 says this: For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. What does this famous verse say about a person's natural moral ability to believe in Christ? The answer is nothing. What the verse says is whosever does A (believes) will receive B (Eternal life). It says nothing whatsoever about who will ever believe.