Why are SDA so paraoid of Jesuits?

[LittleLambofJesus]

as i said in "the details" above - I am more than happy to post the laundry list that Pope Clement gave -

It never occurred to me that you felt this was a "solution" for your POV.

How "odd that even the Pope" complained about the Jesuit oath.

in Christ,

Bob

Which Pope Clement are you talking about?

Phl 4:3
Yes, I ask you also, true companion,fn help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
2815. Klemes klay'-mace of Latin origin; merciful; Clemes (i.e. Clemens), a Christian:--Clement.

Pope Clement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There have been fourteen popes named Clement.

• Pope Clement I saint, (88–98)
• Pope Clement II (1046–1047)
• Pope Clement III (1187–1191)
• Pope Clement IV (1265–1268)
• Pope Clement V (1305–1314) — memorable for suppressing the Knights Templar, and moving papacy to Avignon
• Pope Clement VI (1342–1352) — known for being the Pope during the Black Death
• Pope Clement VII (1523–1534) — refused to annul the marriage of Henry VIII, thus prompting the English Reformation
• Pope Clement VIII (1592–1605)
• Pope Clement IX (1667–1669)
• Pope Clement X (1670–1676)
• Pope Clement XI (1700–1721)
• Pope Clement XII (1730–1740)
• Pope Clement XIII (1758–1769)
• Pope Clement XIV (1769–1774)

There have also been three antipopes named Clement.

• Antipope Clement III (1080–1085)
• Antipope Clement VII (1378–1394) First Avignon Pope
• Antipope Clement VIII (1423–1429)

 

[BobRyan]

Pope Clement XIV then points out to what end these Jesuit abuses and excesses were tending.


[FONT=&quot]To what great extent where those errors tending according to Pope Clement XIV?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]After so many storms, troubles, and divisions, every good man looked forward with impatience to the happy day which was to restore peace and tranquility. But under the reign of this same Clement XIII. the times became more difficult and tempestuous; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]complaints and quarrels were multiplied on every side; in some places dangerous sedition arose, tumults, discords, dissension, scandals, which, weakening or entirely breaking the bonds of Christian charity, excited the faithful to all the rage [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of party hatreds and enmities[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Desolation and danger grew to such a height, that the very sovereigns, whose piety and liberality towards the Company were so well known as to be looked upon as hereditary in their families—we mean our dearly beloved sons in Christ, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Kings of France, Spain, Portugal, and Sicily found themselves reduced to the necessity of expelling and driving from their states, kingdoms, and provinces, these very Companions of Jesus[/FONT][FONT=&quot] persuaded that there remained no other remedy to so great evils[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; and that this step was necessary in order to prevent the Christians from rising one against another, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and from massacring each other[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in the very bosom of our common mother the Holy Church[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The said our dear sons in Jesus Christ having since considered that even this remedy would not be sufficient towards reconciling the whole Christian world, unless the said Society was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]absolutely abolished[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and suppressed, made known their demands and wills in this matter to our said predecessor Clement VIII[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

As I have repeatedly spoken of the clear statements of Pope Clement XiV regarding the Jesuit order -

this insightful question now comes up.

Which Pope Clement are you talking about?

Ahh yes - good point - which "Clement XIV" am I speaking about.

I leave that as an exercise for the readers.

But I will note this - the Clement XIV - comments go back to at least March 27 of this year on this thread and all along since then.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As I have repeatedly spoken of the clear statements of Pope Clement XiV regarding the Jesuit order -

this insightful question now comes up.

Ahh yes - good point - which "Clement XIV" am I speaking about.

I leave that as an exercise for the readers.

in Christ,

Bob

Ahhhh....thanks
Please continue......

Pope Clement XIV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Jesuits had been expelled from Brazil (1754), Portugal (1759), France (1764), Spain and its colonies (1767) and Parma (1768). Though he had to face strong pressure on the part of the ambassadors of the Bourbon courts Clement XIII always refused to yield to their demands to have the Society of Jesus suppressed.

His successor Clement XIV tried to placate the enemies of the Jesuits by treating them harshly: he refused to meet the Superior General, Lorenzo Ricci, ordered them not to receive novices, etc.
The pressure kept building up to the point that Catholic countries were threatening to break away from the Church.

Clement XIV ultimately yielded "in the name of peace of the Church and to avoid a secession in Europe" and suppressed the Society of Jesus by the brief Dominus ac Redemptor of the 21 July 1773.[4]
However in non-Catholic nations, particularly in Prussia and Russia, where papal authority was not recognized, the order was ignored. It was a result of a series of political moves rather than a theological controversy.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus

The Suppression of the Jesuits in the Portuguese Empire, France, the Two Sicilies, Malta, Parma and the Spanish Empire by 1767 was a result of a series of political moves in each polity rather than a theological controversy.[1] Monarchies attempting to centralize and secularize political power viewed the Jesuits as being too international, to strongly allied to the papacy, and too autonomous of the monarchs in whose territory they operated.[2] By the brief Dominus ac Redemptor (21 July 1773) Pope Clement XIV suppressed the Society of Jesus.

The Jesuits took refuge in non-Catholic nations, particularly in Prussia and Russia, where the order was ignored or formally rejected. The scholarly Jesuit Society of Bollandists moved from Antwerp to Brussels, where they continued their work in the monastery of the Coudenberg; in 1788, the Bollandist Society was suppressed by the Austrian government of the Low Countries.


.

 

[MoreCoffee]

BobRyan, let me ask once more.

1. How long were the Jesuits suppressed? You could give a start and an end date and a count of years. For example, you could say 150 years starting in 1776 AD and ending in 1926 AD.
2. Why were the Jesuits suppressed? You could answer by stating what events in history led to the suppression. For example, you might say the king of country X threatened to destroy the Jesuits and confiscate all church property executing the Jesuits and their superiors and all bishops and clergy who refused to turn them over to the state for punishment.

Hope this helps.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan, let me ask once more.How long were the Jesuits suppressed? You could give a start and an end date and a count of years. For example, you could say 150 years starting in 1776 AD and ending in 1926 AD..

In the post just before your post - it was pointed out that the public info on the internet admits they were extinguished starting with the Papal decree Dominus ac Redemptor of the 21 July 1773.

I can provide a link to the post just before yours - if that would help with the start date info you are seeking.

I do hope this helps.

you could say 150 years starting in 1776 AD and ending in 1926 AD.

indeed which points out the fact that not only did Pope Clement XIV extinguish them - but so also the Pope after Clement - continued that policy. make that the next NINE popes after Clement XIV and the 10th one did not exactly restore the Jesuits on year one or two of his taking office. (if you take Pope Pius XI - and the final restoration of the Jesuits 1920's/1930's)

So then that is ELEVEN Popes who either continued the extinguished Jesuit order policy all during their reign, or initiated it - or continued it for at least some years into their reign.

Even if Pius VII is taken as the restoration - it is still maintained by the 1 Pope after Clement XIV and then for over 12 years of the reign of the pope to follow that one.

In addition to 1776, the Jesuits were suppressed and banned twice more in Spain, in 1834 and in 1932. Spanish ruler Francisco Franco rescinded the final suppression in 1938.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan, let me ask once more.

1. Why were the Jesuits suppressed?

I gave the list of complaints that your own Pope identified.

I even short-snipped-summary posted a couple of them for those who do not like to read 3 or 4 paragraphs of information.

I hope that helps.

click here to see it again -- http://www.christianforums.com/t7684280-46/#post66033869

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
===== since clicking that link above - may be somewhat of a challenge -- here is some the info you would have seen there
=======================================================

How "odd that even the Pope" complained about the Jesuit oath.

"These dissensions and disputes arose sometimes concerning the nature of their vows, the
​

Beyond the "nature of their vows" there was the issue of morals and heterodoxy.

"Who would have thought that even these dispositions should prove ineffectual towards appeasing the cries and appeals against the Society? On the contrary, very violent disputes arose on all sides concerning the doctrine of the Society, which many represented as contrary to the orthodox faith and to sound morals. The dissensions among themselves, and with others, grew every day more animated; the accusations against the Society were multiplied without number, and especially with that insatiable avidity of temporal possessions with which it was reproached.
​

Pope Clement XIV goes on to say

[FONT=&quot] these very Companions of Jesus[/FONT] persuaded that there remained no other remedy to so great evils; and that this step was necessary in order to prevent the Christians from rising one against another, and from massacring each other in the very bosom of our common mother the Holy Church[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]
​

 

[MoreCoffee]

BobRyan, let me ask once more.

1. How long were the Jesuits suppressed? You could give a start and an end date and a count of years. For example, you could say 150 years starting in 1776 AD and ending in 1926 AD.
2. Why were the Jesuits suppressed? You could answer by stating what events in history led to the suppression. For example, you might say the king of country X threatened to destroy the Jesuits and confiscate all church property executing the Jesuits and their superiors and all bishops and clergy who refused to turn them over to the state for punishment.

Hope this helps.

I gave the list of complaints that your own Pope identified.

I even short-snipped-summary posted a couple of them for those who do not like to read 3 or 4 paragraphs of information.

I hope that helps.

Well, I see you've tried your best but can't answer the first question and are struggling with the second. I think that brother LittleLambofJesus managed to give a decent answer. Here is what you'll discover if you read the history for yourself, BobRyan.

1. The suppression lasted 41 years and was decreed by the pope in 1773 and lifted in 1814 by another pope.
2. The reasons for the suppression were political, economic, and short lived. The Jesuits used Spanish laws against taking slaves from the native populations in the Americas to protect the native people who lived in the lands granted to the order; they helped the natives set up communities, farm the land, and trade their surpluses. Their enterprises were very successful and very profitable but the profits were given back to the natives at the rate 90% to the natives 10% to the Jesuit order (a tithe in effect). These enterprises were so successful that the Portuguese, Spanish, French, and 'Italian' rulers demanded that they be suppressed and offered as their reasons for the suppression political interference, internationalism, and not coming under the thumb of the civil rulers.

The pope acquiesced after long opposition when the rulers of the nations mentioned said (each separately and at different meetings) that they would (much as the English had done in 1534 AD) separate from the Catholic Church, seize church property, and do what rulers had been doing for almost two hundred years in some of the Protestant lands - systematically persecute Catholic clergy and laity who refused to acknowledge that the rulers had the right to dominate the church and subject it to their whims.

The order was restored in 1814 because after Napoleon's wars the old rulers were no longer in charge and European politics had undergone fundamental changes.

Let me know, BobRyan, when next you have a theory about the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) and I'll see if I can help you with the facts.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan, let me ask once more.How long were the Jesuits suppressed? You could give a start and an end date and a count of years. For example, you could say 150 years starting in 1776 AD and ending in 1926 AD..

In the post just before your post - it was pointed out that the public info on the internet admits they were extinguished starting with the Papal decree Dominus ac Redemptor of the 21 July 1773.

I can provide a link to the post just before yours - if that would help with the start date info you are seeking.

I do hope this helps.

you could say 150 years starting in 1776 AD and ending in 1926 AD.

indeed which points out the fact that not only did Pope Clement XIV extinguish them - but so also the Pope after Clement - continued that policy. make that the next NINE popes after Clement XIV and the 10th one did not exactly restore the Jesuits on year one or two of his taking office. (if you take Pope Pius XI - and the final restoration of the Jesuits 1920's/1930's)

So then that is ELEVEN Popes who either continued the extinguished Jesuit order policy all during their reign, or initiated it - or continued it for at least some years into their reign.

Even if Pius VII is taken as the restoration - it is still maintained by the 1 Pope after Clement XIV and then for over 12 years of the reign of the pope to follow that one.

In addition to 1776, the Jesuits were suppressed and banned twice more in Spain, in 1834 and in 1932. Spanish ruler Francisco Franco rescinded the final suppression in 1938.

Well, I see you've tried your best but can't answer the first question .

You say that as if you do not read the posts.

I admit that I skip through the multicoloured bold and underlined

how sad

Do you then imagine that other readers cannot stand to have inconvenient details in history highlighted in the posts as well?

 

[MoreCoffee]

You say that as if you do not read the posts.

I admit that I skip through the multicoloured bold and underlined labyrinthine texts that some of your posts are. I would apologise except that I think it is justified to skip such tortuous reading until the author decides to write posts in less lurid styles.

The example answers I provided in post #466 were examples intended to help you form your own answers in the kind of brief format that was requested. The examples were not the actual facts, just examples of presenting facts that answer the questions asked.

Post #469 provides the factual answers. The suppression lasted from 1773 until 1814, that's 41 years. The suppression ended because the rulers who pressured an elderly pope to suppress the Jesuits were no longer rulers able to deliver on their threatened destruction of the Catholic Church in their lands. See how easy it is to answer when you stick to the facts?

In post #465 LLoJ provided nearly all the information you needed to answer my questions, BobRyan.

 

[BobRyan]

imagine if you will the historic "revisionism" needed to take this published statement of Pope Clement XIV

After so many storms, troubles, and divisions, every good man looked forward with impatience to the happy day which was to restore peace and tranquility. But under the reign of this same Clement XIII. the times became more difficult and tempestuous; complaints and quarrels were multiplied on every side; in some places dangerous sedition arose, tumults, discords, dissension, scandals, which, weakening or entirely breaking the bonds of Christian charity, excited the faithful to all the rage of party hatreds and enmities. Desolation and danger grew to such a height, that the very sovereigns, whose piety and liberality towards the Company were so well known as to be looked upon as hereditary in their families—we mean our dearly beloved sons in Christ, the Kings of France, Spain, Portugal, and Sicily found themselves reduced to the necessity of expelling and driving from their states, kingdoms, and provinces, these very Companions of Jesus persuaded that there remained no other remedy to so great evils;

And reduce it down (water it down ) to this...

...The Jesuits used Spanish laws against taking slaves from the native populations in the Americas to protect the native people who lived in the lands granted to the order; they helped the natives set up communities, farm the land, and trade their surpluses. Their enterprises were very successful and very profitable but the profits were given back to the natives at the rate 90% to the natives 10% to the Jesuit order (a tithe in effect). These enterprises were so successful that the Portuguese, Spanish, French, and 'Italian' rulers demanded that they be suppressed .

In that spin that MC offers the good guys of Clement's description become the bad guys - and the Pope himself in league with slave traders among the civil authorities of his day.

And while it is true that I have no problem at all discussing what the RCC calls "wicked popes" - I don't think they list Clement XIV as one of them - and so it is "instructive" how the Catholic defense of the Jesuits turns history on its head in the example.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay BobRyan, I can see that you're not minded to deal with the facts at this time. Thanks for your time and texts.

 

[BobRyan]

on the contrary - I highlight the facts and you admit that when you see facts of history that you don't like - in highlight you skim over those details.

You are welcome to do that as you wish.

As it is now - the readers can see that Clement's text saying nothing at all about being in league with slavery or sympathetic to the nations that want to pursue slavery and opposed to the way the Jesuits give land and money to peasants.

And the only reason for bringing out these "inconvenient details" on this thread (thread not started by me) - is that it dispels the fiction that the bad news about Jesuits can only be found among non-Catholic groups. My claim is that the Catholic sources - "at the highest levels" will at times admit to the problem.

 

[squint]

And the only reason for bringing out these "inconvenient details" on this thread (thread not started by me) - is that it dispels the fiction that the bad news about Jesuits can only be found among non-Catholic groups. My claim is that the Catholic sources - "at the highest levels" will at times admit to the problem.

So, Bob, are you saying that the highest officials are kind of like politicians? They only admit to problems when they are actually caught red handed?

Say it isn't so.

 

[Sean611]

Clear to me, but not sure how the SDA sect will take it.

So why are the SDAs consider orthodox if the JWs aren't?

It is all so confusing to me........



.

I don't know how Adventists could be considered a part of orthodox Trinitarian Christianity. Many of their teachings are far outside the bounds of anything close to orthodox Christianity. It is clear that their Christology shares a lot with the Jehovah's Witnesses, especially when it comes to their traditional views of Jesus and sin. You add this with the heavenly sanctuary, investigative judgement, and remnant and it is easy to see just how much Charles Russell was influenced by Adventist theology.

They may not have many of the extreme elements of the Jehovah's Witness cult, however, it is clear that their beliefs are heterodox.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't know how Adventists could be considered a part of orthodox Trinitarian Christianity. Many of their teachings are far outside the bounds of anything close to orthodox Christianity. It is clear that their Christology shares a lot with the Jehovah's Witnesses, especially when it comes to their traditional views of Jesus and sin. You add this with the heavenly sanctuary, investigative judgement, and remnant and it is easy to see just how much Charles Russell was influenced by Adventist theology.

They may not have many of the extreme elements of the Jehovah's Witness cult, however, it is clear that their beliefs are heterodox.

Thanks for clarifying that, as you appear to know the JWs better than I do.
I never knew the JWs and SDAs shared so many common views.

Lol, I understand! I grew up in the Jehovah's Witness cult, I feel like I have earned a free pass when it comes to being harsh on the restorationist movement.

 

[Sean611]

Thanks for clarifying that, as you appear to know the JWs better than I do.
I never knew the JWs and SDAs shared so many common views.

No problem!!

It is also not necessarily that they share a lot of common views today, but that the Jehovah's Witnesses built upon the views established by Adventists and built upon an Adventist way of doing theology and reading the bible. The traditional Adventist view is that Christ inherited original sin and did not sin. Jehovah's Witnesses believe the same thing and added that his life is perfect and that living this perfect life and offering himself as the perfect sacrifice is what allows the possibility of salvation. You add that with the fact that Charles Russell began questioning the doctrine of the Trinity after studying the Adventist views of the Trinity and it is abundantly clear that the influence of Adventist theology on Russell was very significant. Then, you jump to the Adventist doctrine of soul sleep and its influence on Russell's development of the body being a soul and the idea that when you die, the soul does not live on.

Furthermore, the investigative judgment clearly played a role in influencing Charles Russell's development of the 1914 invisible return of Christ and his inspection of the Watchtower Organization to see if they were following God's commandments. Of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that they were judged worthy.

Charles Russell was also clearly interested in calculating Christ's return and the day of judgement. After the Adventist failure to predict Christ's return (referred to as the Great Disappointment), Russell began a series of failed predictions himself.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A member put this up on my profile board. Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread or not. Is this a hoax?

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2592431/pg1

Jesuit Father Thomas Reese, writing in The National Catholic Reporter, observed that:

“. . . . the new requirement may affect Catholic Relief Services, Catholic hospitals, Catholic education and other Catholic charities that receive federal funds. These institutions normally provide services to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people without discrimination, but problems have arisen with regards to adoptions by gay couples and spousal benefits for gay employees.”

Father Thomas Reese, SJ
Father Thomas Reese, SJ
Fr. Reese recounts the history, at the state level, of Catholic agencies cutting or closing their services rather than agree to abide by non-discrimination policies:



http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2...ces-closer-video-imperative-info-2462822.html

WARNING! Obama Appoints a JESUIT PRIEST to the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom! One World Religion Advances Closer! (Video) IMPERATIVE INFO!


Published on Jul 14, 2014
President Obama appoints a Jesuit Priest to the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom!!!

OBAMA HIRES JESUIT! - YouTube

 

[BobRyan]

I don't know how Adventists could be considered a part of orthodox Trinitarian Christianity.

It's probably that "one God in Three Persons" (co-equal, co-eternal persons of the Godhead) thing that makes people think of the Trinity when it comes to Seventh-day Adventist.

I suppose that would be confusing to non-trinitarians.

You add this with the heavenly sanctuary, investigative judgement, and remnant

If you object to Hebrews 8 and 9 teaching on sanctuary in heaven and the remnant of Rev 12 -- you are free to say so.

But we don't have to be opposed to those Bible texts just because others are.

And this relates to the Pope's "extinguishing the Jesuit order forever" --- how??

their beliefs are heterodox.

oh I see its that dark-ages Jesuit-style name-calling thing again.

Well you have a point that harrrumph-style name calling does fit the title of the thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

imagine if you will the historic "revisionism" needed to take this published statement of Pope Clement XIV

After so many storms, troubles, and divisions, every good man looked forward with impatience to the happy day which was to restore peace and tranquility. But under the reign of this same Clement XIII. the times became more difficult and tempestuous; complaints and quarrels were multiplied on every side; in some places dangerous sedition arose, tumults, discords, dissension, scandals, which, weakening or entirely breaking the bonds of Christian charity, excited the faithful to all the rage of party hatreds and enmities. Desolation and danger grew to such a height, that the very sovereigns, whose piety and liberality towards the Company were so well known as to be looked upon as hereditary in their families—we mean our dearly beloved sons in Christ, the Kings of France, Spain, Portugal, and Sicily found themselves reduced to the necessity of expelling and driving from their states, kingdoms, and provinces, these very Companions of Jesus persuaded that there remained no other remedy to so great evils;

And reduce it down (water it down ) to this...

...The Jesuits used Spanish laws against taking slaves from the native populations in the Americas to protect the native people who lived in the lands granted to the order; they helped the natives set up communities, farm the land, and trade their surpluses. Their enterprises were very successful and very profitable but the profits were given back to the natives at the rate 90% to the natives 10% to the Jesuit order (a tithe in effect). These enterprises were so successful that the Portuguese, Spanish, French, and 'Italian' rulers demanded that they be suppressed .

In that spin that MC offers the good guys of Clement's description become the bad guys - and the Pope himself in league with slave traders among the civil authorities of his day.

And while it is true that I have no problem at all discussing what the RCC calls "wicked popes" - I don't think they list Clement XIV as one of them - and so it is "instructive" how the Catholic defense of the Jesuits turns history on its head in the example.

To MoreCoffee I responded -

I highlight the facts and you admit that when you see facts of history, that you don't like, being highlighted in the post - you skim over those details.

You are welcome to do that as you wish.

As it is now - the readers can see that Clement's text saying nothing at all about being in league with slavery or sympathetic to the nations that want to pursue slavery and opposed to the way the Jesuits give land and money to peasants.

And the only reason for bringing out these "inconvenient details" on this thread (thread not started by me) - is that it dispels the fiction that the bad news about Jesuits can only be found among non-Catholic groups. My claim is that the Catholic sources - "at the highest levels" will at times admit to the problem.

So, Bob, are you saying that the highest officials are kind of like politicians? They only admit to problems when they are actually caught red handed?

Say it isn't so.

Indeed. I am not saying that the Popes always admit the negative history about the Jesuits that Clement XIV published to the world - but now and then .... it can happen.

And there is no way to spin it as 'just blame non-catholics' -- when that happens.

in Christ,

Bob