Why are SDA so paraoid of Jesuits?

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

Rick Otto said:
Your use of the term "ACTUAL" is hollow rhetoric.
I never read anything by Ms. White.

History is (in general) either the outcome of SOMEone's plans, or an unplanned (accidental) outcome. .

Since there have been so many threads on GT recently related to that - I started my own with the OP quoting a few paragraphs and and asking the question as to whether the text posted could be cast as "boring".

http://www.christianforums.com/t7834503/#post66063567

in Christ,

Bob

Rick Otto · Jul 28, 2014

Thanks for checking, Bob, my kindle is picky about what videos it will play.

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

Originally Posted by BobRyan

on the off-chance MC is able to address the questions about his own video
By "short" do you mean 41 minutes??

Question 1. of the different John Paul Popes - which one is "John Paul the Great"???

Question 2. in the first five minutes - Fulton Sheen is quoted as if he knows something about both Catholics and non-Catholics. Is this where Catholics will admit that quoting Popes, Bishops, Catholic Digest etc when they say something that is "inconvenient" --- still matters??

Question 3 - at the 12 - 13 minute mark your video actually uses the Apostolic succession of Judas. which is the only one found in actual scripture -- even though James dies early on in the book of Acts - and there is no Apostolic succession for him.

But the video admits that the model they are following is the one for Judas.

MoreCoffee said:
Answers:
Yes, 41 minutes is fairly short.

John Paul II

No idea what the question means

You mean the succession of Matthias into the office vacated by Judas? You know that James was not one of the twelve.

Judas - was replaced in Acts 1 -- that is the model that the video is claiming at the 12-13 minute point.

James that is killed in the book of Acts is indeed one of the twelve and that is a problem for the model that claims he should have been subject to the same sort of "apostolic replacement" as we see in Acts 1 for Judas and as is claimed for popes.

Interesting that John Paul II is "the great"??

How did that happen?

By voting?

I vote for Clement XIV as "Clement the Great" --

in Christ,

Bob

Rick Otto · Jul 28, 2014

Why are SDA so paraoid of Jesuits?

Because they have taken over the education systems like in the Protocols of ZIon, and they have so dumbed down the common people, that they can't even spell paranoid properly anymore.

XD

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
Everybody knows that no matter how many times the conspiracy is demonstrated to be wrong it will still be right!!!!

That's the nature of conspiracy theories

So then Pope Clement XIv was part of the "conspiracy" to say mean things about Jesuits when he abolished that order "with all the fulness of his Apostolic power"??

Really??

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
No accident theory is being discussed either. It's called studying ACTUAL history

So then we need to read the actual historic document published by Pope Clement XIV when he abolished the Jesuit order "by all the fullness of Apostolic power" and also provided a list of a few of the wrongs they were associated with in his document/proclamation?

You are asking us to actually read that historic document now? Isn't that a change for you?

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
the Millerite group,which white belonged to can be proven to have occured like the group of millerites that broke away and thus became the SDA said.

Which, wouldn't that be as much of a bit of secret knowledge as anything you are trying to accuse the RCC of?

-- I wouldn't mind responding to that point -- but I can't figure out what you are trying to say --

Do you mean you think SDAs should stop talking about the Millerite history and how it lead to what Adventists still call "the great disappointment" and that 50 out of that group of 50,000 Millerites went on to form a new denomination called "Seventh-day Adventists" ??

Are you saying that this often repeated history by SDAs ... is... " a secret to them?"

GoingByzantine · Jul 28, 2014

Rick Otto said:
Why are SDA so paraoid of Jesuits?

Because they have taken over the education systems like in the Protocols of ZIon, and they have so dumbed down the common people, that they can't even spell paranoid properly anymore.

XD

I doubt that, if you want to see dumbed down common people, visit a U.S. public school.

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

Rick Otto said:
Why are SDA so paraoid of Jesuits?

Because they have taken over the education systems like in the Protocols of ZIon, and they have so dumbed down the common people, that they can't even spell paranoid properly anymore.

XD

Yes that is our problem - we are now merely "paroid" (I mean "paraoid") when it comes to different topics.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Rick Otto · Jul 28, 2014

Bob, for some people, inconvenient history lacks "truthyness".
C

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

agua said:
Oky doky. Mrs White ( Ms Harmon at the time ) was a Millerite

True - she was involved in that group from the ages of 13 - 17 along with her parents.

No visions or dreams - just a teen attending meetings and enthusiastic about the hope that Christ would come in 1843 and the date moved to 1844. And then of course they figured out that the 2300 years of Dan 8 while ending in 1844 was not pointing to the 2nd coming of Christ,

agua said:
but formed a new group after the 1844 doctrine failed to eventuate and this led to the introduction of the investigative judgement doctrine. Is that right ?

She was a teen in 1844 and 1845 - and only had her first vision at the end of 1844.

The first person to have vision/dream pointing to Christ entering the Most Holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 -was Hiram Edson not Ellen White. They studied the matter out from the Bible and only later did Ellen White have a vision confirming that point.

Cool example. Ok so we can assume a person holds an incorrect idea/doctrine but when they receive the truth they quickly change their mind ?

People change their minds every day - that is not "new" or "news".

The point here is that when God is claimed to be the author of the message - then the message must be true when tested against the Bible - or else it is proof that the one claiming to have gotten that message from God is a false prophet.

Cool. Can you give me some visions and dreams of Mrs White's that reflect Biblical truths ?

All of them that I have read so far.

But a simple example is posted here.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7834503/#post66063567

ah ok. So are you suggesting there are no flaws in Mrs Whites teaching at all ? I've never heard this idea that Mrs White taught infinite knowledge. It seems you might be suggesting infinite knowledge can't be refuted because it may be extrabiblical and unable to be ratified ( sorry checked ) with scripture is that right ?

I have no idea what you are talking about. I stated that infinite knowledge is not a requirement for the person who has the gift of prophecy. Are you trying to respond to that point?

If so -- what is your point?

Ok. Do you believe Mrs White has not presented, and promoted, any incorrect doctrine ?

I do not know of any doctrine that she published (as in "promoted" in her writings as coming to her via a message from God) that is not correct.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

Rick Otto said:
Bob, for some people, inconvenient history lacks "truthyness".
C

I believe you have a point there sir. I think that has been demonstrated a time or two so far.

in Christ,

Bob

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Jul 28, 2014

BobRyan said:
-- I wouldn't mind responding to that point -- but I can't figure out what you are trying to say --

Do you mean you think SDAs should stop talking about the Millerite history and how it lead to what Adventists still call "the great disappointment" and that 50 out of that group of 50,000 Millerites went on to form a new denomination called "Seventh-day Adventists" ??

Are you saying that this often repeated history by SDAs ... is... " a secret to them?"

It may be forgotten by some, that is true, and not taught by some, also true, and some even ignorant [not knowing of it], but it shouldn't be that way, eh BobRyan?.

The Great Disappointment is clearly labelled in Revelation 10, and in fact, if one's movement did not have such a great disappointment [wherein it was first "sweet" to the "mouth", but later became "bitter" in the stomach], during the specified time, they are not the ones to have fulfilled that prophecy, and are therefore not the remnant movement to "prophesy again".

The Great Disappointment is the great lynch pin between the historical past and the remnant then, and now. It is positive proof of fulfilled prophecy, and one of the key identifying marks of the people foretold in Revelation 10, and elsewhere.

To shy away from it [as some might think to do [ignorantly, of course]], is to remove that lynch pin, and to ultimately undercut the identity of the, prophetically foretold, Remnant movement.

Not that any faithful Seventh-day Adventists are doing that in this thread.

It would seem the enemy would have us forget it, and relegate it to some sort of shame... when it is in fact, the Triumph of Jesus Christ.

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1 Corinthians 1:27

Targaryen · Jul 28, 2014

Yes bob i think that was the point. White's writings are not more important then the Bible and ALL christians believe in the power of the Scriptures.

Now does that not makes sense, or is that a conspiracy as well?

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
Yes bob i think that was the point. White's writings are not more important then the Bible

I don't think you have a quote from me saying that the visions God gave Ellen White are more important than the Bible.

It is not either - or...

ALL christians believe in the power of the Scriptures.

Now does that not makes sense, or is that a conspiracy as well?

I am glad that Christians accept the Bible - some accept all 66 books , some toss out 39 books from the OT -and some toss out the 39 + the 4 Gospels arguing that they are all before the cross.

I want the Bible "And the words in the Bible" because among other things - in the Bible we find that spiritual gifts are important and should not be avoided.

in Christ,

Bob

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Jul 28, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
Yes bob i think that was the point. White's writings are not more important then the Bible and ALL christians believe in the power of the Scriptures.

Now does that not makes sense, or is that a conspiracy as well?

Do you believe that part where the gift of Prophecy would be in the Church? Do you believe the part where it is written, that God's people were to "prophesy again"?

Targaryen · Jul 28, 2014

Shiny Gospel Shoes said:
Do you believe that part where the gift of Prophecy would be in the Church? Do you believe the part where it is written, that God's people were to "prophesy again"?

I generally reject that concept like I reject Papal Infalibility in the sense, it is not relevant to my faith in God, but they maybe seen as needed by others. So no, it's not a broad based brush, but to me both are as disuniting concepts.

Mama Kidogo · Jul 28, 2014

BobRyan said:
You are pointing to section dealing with the degree to which Ellen White was a prolific writer, her writings translated into a large number of other languages, and the video then contains a focus on testing all doctrine against what the Bible says.

Did you mean to do that?

in Christ,

Bob

Yes i meant to do that. Propping her up as perfectly biblical (despite the truth) makes him a pure blood. But I would guess you didn't even notice the kicker.

Shiny Gospel Shoes · Jul 28, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
I generally reject that concept like I reject Papal Infalibility in the sense, it is not relevant to my faith in God, but they maybe seen as needed by others. So no, it's not a broad based brush, but to me both are as disuniting concepts.

So, you are saying that you belong to a church which has not the gift/spirit of Prophecy?

Would you mind telling me, who, then, the following people are?

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17

"...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10

See also 1 Corinthians 1:6,7,8. Notice until when the Church was to have the gift/spirit of Prophecy.

Is the "remnant" something which comes first, or comes last?

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2014

BobRyan said:
You are pointing to section dealing with the degree to which Ellen White was a prolific writer, her writings translated into a large number of other languages, and the video then contains a focus on testing all doctrine against what the Bible says.

Did you mean to do that?

Mama Kidogo said:
Yes i meant to do that. Propping her up as perfectly biblical (despite the truth) makes him a pure blood. But I would guess you didn't even notice the kicker.

The truth is that I have no problem with the sola-scriptura testing model in the 2 minute segment you highlight - nor do i object to the historic fact that Ellen White is the most published and most-translated woman author in American history - (which is the only two points highlighted in the 2 minute segment you asked all of us to watch in that video).

Were we suppose to object?

in Christ,

Bob

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