Why are Manger scenes not graven images?

[Paleoconservatarian]

Actually, I do believe that nativity scenes are in violation of the second commandment. I do find it rather confusing that a Protestant would censure the Catholics and Orthodox for images and then set up their pictures of Jesus on their PowerPoint presentations (during worship!) and in their nativity scenes. What further boggles my mind is that these same Protestants downplay the role of the images that God did give us, the sacraments.

 

[raffster]

Very good question.

Do you bow before these things?
When I was a child, raised Catholic, I was taught to kneel before these things at the stations of the cross (something like that).
I can't remember exactly what or why now.

I (no longer catholic) have a picture of Jesus on my wall and I do have a protestant friend who has told me it is a sacrilige.

So I too, would love to hear comments.

sunlover

You bow down or kneel to the being that the statue represents, not the actual statue. The moment hardcore protestants realize that, there would be no more reason to Protest.

 

[ModernDaySpyridon]

I believe nativity scenes fall under the 2nd Commandment prohibition. I think there are two kinds of prohibition here: 1. Images of God, 2. Images used in worship.

And yet almost immediately afterwards, the Tabernacle is created, with all sorts of images and gold statues....hmm...it seems we have a bit of a conundrum on our hands...

In my opinion, natitvity scenes fall under the 1st prohibition since they depict a baby Jesus.

"Baby Jesus", lest we forget, was fully a human being, with a physical body, therefore he could be depicted in art. God the Father and the Holy Spirit aren't depicted (at least in in EO iconography) because they cannot be seen (except in rare cases, like the dove at Jesus' baptism. It was established in the 7th Council of Nicea (787 AD) that icons were appropriate and even necessary elements of Christian worship. For instance...

Concerning the charge of idolatry: Icons are not idols but symbols, therefore when an Orthodox venerates an icon, he is not guilty of idolatry. He is not worshipping the symbol, but merely venerating it. Such veneration is not directed toward wood, or paint or stone, but towards the person depicted. Therefore relative honor is shown to material objects, but worship is due to God alone.

We do not make obeisance to the nature of wood, but we revere and do obeisance to Him who was crucified on the Cross... When the two beams of the Cross are joined together I adore the figure because of Christ who was crucified on the Cross, but if the beams are separated, I throw them away and burn them. —St. John of Damascus

Icons are necessary and essential because they protect the full and proper doctrine of the Incarnation. While God cannot be represented in His eternal nature ("...no man has seen God", John 1:18), He can be depicted simply because He "became human and took flesh." Of Him who took a material body, material images can be made. In so taking a material body, God proved that matter can be redeemed. He deified matter, making it spirit-bearing, and so if flesh can be a medium for the Spirit, so can wood or paint, although in a different fashion. ( http://orthodoxwiki.org/Seventh_Ecumenical_Council )

I do not worship matter, but the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, who through matter effected my salvation... —St. John of Damascus

 

[christianmomof3]

Many Protestants (not all) condemn us Catholics for having "graven images", which are condemned in the Bible.

And yet these same Protestants have manger scenes on their lawns and even in their churches. Why is it wrong to have a statue of Mary, Joseph, or Jesus unless it is in a manger scene at Christmas time?

Hmm - That is a good point.
I personally think that they might be idols to some people.
As was pointed out earlier, the problem with statues and pictures and even crosses is when people pray before them and kiss them and things like that. It is showing reverance to stuff rather than to God.
I understand that most people will say they are not praying to the statue, but I have heard stories of demonic activity with such statues and pictures.
I imagine the verse about getting the beam out of your eye before griping about the splinter in someone else's eye might apply here.

Enjoy Christ and grow in His life and love.

 

[Asinner]

For the illiterate and for the literate.

O come let us worship and fall down before our King and God.
O come let us worship and fall down before Christ, our King and God.
O come let us worship and fall down before Him, Christ the King and our God.

 

[ModernDaySpyridon]

Hmm - That is a good point.
I personally think that they might be idols to some people.

Well, that's always a possibility, with anything; Bibles, worship bands, emotions, even ourselves.

 

[eoe]

PowerPoint presentations (during worship!)

Ugg... *shudder*

 

[HiredGoon]

And yet almost immediately afterwards, the Tabernacle is created, with all sorts of images and gold statues....hmm...it seems we have a bit of a conundrum on our hands...

Not at all. The express commands of God would be the exception to the rule. There were times when God commanded certain images to be made (eg. the bronze serpent.), which served a purpose for a time, yet when people began to worship it, He commanded it to be destroyed. He also never commanded any image or statue of Himself or person to be made for the tabernacle or temple. Making images of God or to be used in worship of our own accord (without God's command) was always wrong. And anyways, for Christians, tabernacle/temple worship and all its trappings, including the ceremonial law have passed away. So descriptions of decorating the tabernacle or temple have no bearing on forumlating doctrine for us today. The moral law, the ten commandments still stand.

"Baby Jesus", lest we forget, was fully a human being, with a physical body, therefore he could be depicted in art. God the Father and the Holy Spirit aren't depicted (at least in in EO iconography) because they cannot be seen (except in rare cases, like the dove at Jesus' baptism. It was established in the 7th Council of Nicea (787 AD) that icons were appropriate and even necessary elements of Christian worship. For instance...

God, as the second person of the trinity appeared at various times to the patriarchs, Moses and the elders, etc. in human form before the incarnation. Yet they did not make any images of him, because they correctly interpreted the 2nd commandment. Plus, we have no way to know what Christ looked like. Any icon of him will always be wrong. Tradition does not preserve his image, only what people in the past imagined him to look like. I also believe that the 7th Council of Nicea greatly erred in restoring icons, which had correctly been prohibited.

Icons are necessary and essential because they protect the full and proper doctrine of the Incarnation. While God cannot be represented in His eternal nature ("...no man has seen God", John 1:18), He can be depicted simply because He "became human and took flesh." Of Him who took a material body, material images can be made. In so taking a material body, God proved that matter can be redeemed. He deified matter, making it spirit-bearing, and so if flesh can be a medium for the Spirit, so can wood or paint, although in a different fashion.

Only the preaching of the Word, and the sacraments are necessary and essential parts of worship, and the regular means God uses to teach his people.

 

[HiredGoon]

For the illiterate and for the literate.

O come let us worship and fall down before our King and God.
O come let us worship and fall down before Christ, our King and God.
O come let us worship and fall down before Him, Christ the King and our God.

God doesn't need us to illustrate the gospel with icons or any images, nor were images ever necessary for communicating the gospel. The illiterate can understand the preached Word and sacraments perfectly well.

 

[Asinner]

Only the preaching of the Word, and the sacraments are necessary and essential parts of worship, and the regular means God uses to teach his people.

And for the illiterate or hearing impaired? Are they excluded from "hearing" the Gospel?

Love,
Christina

 

[QuantaCura]

Nativity scenes are the worst kind of idolotry--it's idols committing idolotry! The idols of Mary and Joseph worship the idol of the Infant Jesus. Plus, there's usually a graven calf, donkey, and sheep there too

 

[PaulAckermann]

As was pointed out earlier, the problem with statues and pictures and even crosses is when people pray before them and kiss them and things like that. It is showing reverance to stuff rather than to God.

Is it wrong to pray before an object?

If it is, then wouldn't be wrong to pray before an open Bible?

Is it wrong to kiss a picture?

If it is, then a man who kissed a picture of his dead wife would be a sin.

A man who kisses a picture of someone he loves and who is no longer with him realizes that the picture only represents that person, and the picture is not actually that person.

So since if that is true, why would be wrong to kiss a picture of Jesus?

I understand that most people will say they are not praying to the statue, but I have heard stories of demonic activity with such statues and pictures.

There are many old wives tales floating around out there.

I imagine the verse about getting the beam out of your eye before griping about the splinter in someone else's eye might apply here.

Amen. Idolatry is a matter of the heart. A person can pray in fron of a picture, or even kiss a picture, but no one can look into his heart and no whether he has commited idolatry.

The log in our eye would be far serious forms of idolatry - such as idolizing money, or your possessions, or your own pleasure. These are the forms of idolatry we should be more concerned with.

As far as making God in a graven image, the log in our eye is picturing God the way we want him to be, instead of the way He has revealed himself. We make God into our image when we box God into our own presuppositions of what we think God should be like.

These are far more serious than worry over whether a person is sinning for pray before or kiss a statue. If that makes a person grow closer to God, we shouldn't judge.

 

[CalvinistSamurai]

I've always found the idea of sculptures in general to be questionable, mostly based on the Jews' reaction to Hellenism. One of the main points of contention between the Jews and the Hellenists was the Greeks' love of statues of humans. The Jews thought it was utter idolatry. That being said, it could be said that the Pharasaical order was highly legalistic and less spiritual, and that we shouldn't worry about it. But it could also be said that God removed Judah and Isreal from their respective lands due to their idolatry, and the Jews' response to Hellenism was appropriate.

Speaking from my humanity though, manger scenes are a depiction of Christ's birth, a commemoration to one of the three most important events in human history (the other two being His death and resurrection). I don't like the idea of praying before sculptures or pictures, or kissing icons, but the above person was correct in saying that its a heart condition.

Shalom.

 

[Asinner]

Glory to God in the highest

 

[ArcticFox]

So who here would take a baby Jesus statue out of a nativity scene and use it as a chock block for your truck? Anyone? Would that be disrespectful?

Eoe,

I have no problem with it, other than that it wouldn't be the most utilitarian piece to choose. Better to rip off a piece of the stable.

And, of course, I wouldn't do it myself, being that it could really send the wrong message. Some people think that the baby actually represents Christ, so it would damage another's faith to see me doing something like that with it. I'd rather discreetly destroy any that comes into my possession (as I did with the only portrait I've ever received, supposedly of Christ).

Christ be honored, false representations be cast aside.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I was going to start this very thread today.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Very good question.

Do you bow before these things?
When I was a child, raised Catholic, I was taught to kneel before these things at the stations of the cross (something like that).
I can't remember exactly what or why now.

I (no longer catholic) have a picture of Jesus on my wall and I do have a protestant friend who has told me it is a sacrilige.

So I too, would love to hear comments.

sunlover

So then anything you bow down in front of, which is graven in the image from land or from sea, could be considered something you worship?

I used to have this picture that I would keep for instances like this. Showed two guys in Baptist Church bowed in prayer and there were some plants in front of them. Probably not strategically placed, but using your logic I could accuse them of plant worship.

Why do we bow down in front of statues in Church? Cause in Church it's appropriate to bow in prayer and lots of times there happens to be statues there. Visual images are one amongst a myriad of things that keep me focused on God and the ancient saints who laid down their lives for the faith. If you see me bowed in prayer and it happens to be in front of a statue, I am not worshipping it. I am praying.

Michelle

 

[Miss Shelby]

Nativity scenes are the worst kind of idolotry--it's idols committing idolotry! The idols of Mary and Joseph worship the idol of the Infant Jesus. Plus, there's usually a graven calf, donkey, and sheep there too

And sometimes there's even a drummer boy, and btw, where is THAT in Scripture??

 

[Trento]

Eoe,

I have no problem with it, other than that it wouldn't be the most utilitarian piece to choose. Better to rip off a piece of the stable.

And, of course, I wouldn't do it myself, being that it could really send the wrong message. Some people think that the baby actually represents Christ, so it would damage another's faith to see me doing something like that with it. I'd rather discreetly destroy any that comes into my possession (as I did with the only portrait I've ever received, supposedly of Christ).

Christ be honored, false representations be cast aside.

 

[adam752]

Hmm...I don't think I know any Roman Catholics who worship idols.

However, I do know many Roman Catholics who find religious art inspiring and a great opportunity to celebrate God's glory through prayer and meditation. Anglicans, like myself, enjoy religious icons too, as it gives us an opportunity to enjoy God's gift of art.

-adam