Why are Christians so incredibly deceived about scripture?

[-57]

No amount of ranting on your part will change the fact that James pretty much kills the notion of "faith alone". I don't "demonize" the notion, I state what scripture makes plain "faith without works is dead", end of discussion. There are no end of folks who claim endless faith, but their behavior is no better than the heathen.

Here is where we have the disconnect, you claim that it is good enough to feel the part, I state that one needs to DO the part.

Not ranting..Im just presenting the biblical facts. See post 478 above where I have presnted 6 verses which contradict your interpretation of what James wa saying.

About doing the part....I'm simply saying if you are a christian you will do the part. Doing the part doesn't make you a christian. Works are a by-product of your faith not a means of acheiving salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. If a person abides in Christ, then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life. Some in the "Belief Alone-ism" camp claim that they do not even need to abide in Christ and yet they can still be saved. But this is not Biblical. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Also, those in the Belief Alone-sim camp are refuted at every turn when they read the New Testament, as well. The bulk of it focuses on holy living with dire after life consequences to one's soul if they are not living holy. One has to do gymnastic twists big time over and over and over and over again just to make Belief Alone-ism work. It is not only unbiblical, but it is immoral, too.


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[-57]

Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. If a person abides in Christ, then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life. Some in the "Belief Alone-ism" camp claim that they do not even need to abide in Christ and yet they can still be saved. But this is not Biblical. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Also, those in the Belief Alone-sim camp are refuted at every turn when they read the New Testament, as well. The bulk of it focuses on holy living with dire after life consequences to one's soul if they are not living holy. One has to do gymnastic twists big time over and over and over and over again just to make Belief Alone-ism work. It is not only unbiblical, but it is immoral, too.


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The thing is...you can't believe unless....(And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” John 6:65)...God grants you the ability to believe.

I am of the opinion that those who you talk about....easy believeism... or as you put it "Belief Alone-ism" are not saved. By that I mean an individual that confesses Christ but never does anything to glorify Christ. Works are a witness to their faith. If works do not follow their faith then it is clear they have no faith and the faith is dead.

On the otherhand salvation is by faith alone. Same words but different meanings. Faith alone means you do nothing to get saved. No works, no baptism, no communion ....it is Christ alone who saves you.

 

[W2L]

No amount of ranting on your part will change the fact that James pretty much kills the notion of "faith alone". I don't "demonize" the notion, I state what scripture makes plain "faith without works is dead", end of discussion. There are no end of folks who claim endless faith, but their behavior is no better than the heathen.

Here is where we have the disconnect, you claim that it is good enough to feel the part, I state that one needs to DO the part.

He never said faith without works is saving faith. He said works are a product of faith. Why is it that I can understand him but you cant? He even reiterated it for you, but you ignored it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The thing is...you can't believe unless....(And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” John 6:65)...God grants you the ability to believe.

I am of the opinion that those who you talk about....easy believeism... or as you put it "Belief Alone-ism" are not saved. By that I mean an individual that confesses Christ but never does anything to glorify Christ. Works are a witness to their faith. If works do not follow their faith then it is clear they have no faith and the faith is dead.

On the otherhand salvation is by faith alone. Same words but different meanings. Faith alone means you do nothing to get saved. No works, no baptism, no communion ....it is Christ alone who saves you.

This is just double talk. You claim that you have to do nothing to be saved and yet you claim that a person who is saved will bring forth works.

Is it because you think that I am proposing Works Alone Salvation-ism? I am also against that wrong version of salvation, as well. Salvation is in a person named Jesus Christ. Salvation is Relationship-ism by faith. Salvation is not Belief Alone-ism. For even the demons believe and tremble.

As a matter of fact, there are many commands that certain Eternal Security Proponents feel they can break and yet still be saved (without repentance). However, the Bible tells us a different story (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:36-37, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8).

For even the teaching on Repentance is distorted by Eternal Security Proponents, as well. For they believe repentance is simply a change of mind about sin and Jesus. However, Repentance is crying out to God for forgiveness of one's sins with the intent that they will forsake their sin (See Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10; Also see Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7).


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[Meowzltov]

You've been elected for mercy before you've done any good or bad.

God's foreknowledge doesn't eradicate free will. They exist side by side.

 

[JacksBratt]

There is no "formula", this is not legalistic krap.
The whole point is that just 'believing" counts for nothing. Everybody in Hell believes. You must DO SOMETHING with your belief, as in clothe the poor, feed the poor, visit the widows, etc. I'm sure you've heard something along these lines before.

Do you think that there is anyone in Hell that believed that they needed Christ's salvation when they lived on earth?

We must believe that He is the only way. We must believe that He died for us. We must believe that we are a sinner. We must believe that we are damned without salvation. We must believe that we are guilty of sin and hell will be our punishment.

If there is anyone in hell that believed these things, when they were on earth, they are in hell by their own choice.

 

[JacksBratt]

Only 9 out of the 10 Commandments are still valid today and they are not exactly the same because they are not enforced with any kind of death penalties.

All are valid today. The 10 commandments were given to man, by God. They are not man made. The fact that there are no death penalties for some, now, on earth, is mute.

Eternal death awaits the one who breaks any of the 10

Believers today follow the New Covenant and it's Commands and not the Old Covenant and it's laws.

As I said, you cannot break any of the original 10 without breaking the two new ones Christ gave.

What exactly is the "new covenant" and it's Commands, anyway?

Just because the many New Testament Commands are based on the two greatest Commands doesn't mean you can ignore the many (or some how you do them all by default) in favor of doing the greatest two. Many of these Commands tells you specifics in how to love God and others. For example: Helping the poor, etc. is not necessarily loving your neighbor as yourself. Jesus says we are ministering to Him when we help the poor. Preaching is another form of loving. Feeding the sheep is another. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. This obviously is more than the greatest two.

I think you are getting the Laws confused with the Commandments.

Oh and yes, I am aware of Romans 13:8-9. But this is about fulfilling the moral portion of the old law by keeping the 2nd greatest commandment. It is not talking about all the laws or Commands in the New Testament.

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You cannot love your neighbor as yourself if you are coveting his car, sleeping with his wife, stealing his vegetables from his garden, killing his dog, lying to him.

And again, they were not the ten "Laws", they were the ten "commandments"

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Eternal death awaits the one who breaks any of the 10

Don't know what context you mean for this.

The penalty for sin is death, yes.

Either a man dies for his sins,

or Y'SHUA MESSIAH died for his sins.

 

[-57]

This is just double talk. You claim that you have to do nothing to be saved and yet you claim that a person who is saved will bring forth works.

That's not double talk. If you're saved why would you not do works?
Jesus Christ did the work required for salvation for you. It's not what you do but what Jesus did.

Salvation is not Belief Alone-ism

You just don't seem to get it...I NEVER said or claimed that. So, stop using it concerning my understanding of scripture.

A person is saved...then they do works. Romans 9 concerning the twins clearly shows you are elected prior to doing good or bad.

As a matter of fact, there are many commands that certain Eternal Security Proponents feel they can break and yet still be saved (without repentance). However, the Bible tells us a different story (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:36-37, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8).

Your religion condemns you.....or have you not violated any of the verses you posted above?

For even the teaching on Repentance is distorted by Eternal Security Proponents, as well. For they believe repentance is simply a change of mind about sin and Jesus. However, Repentance is crying out to God for forgiveness of one's sins with the intent that they will forsake their sin (See Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10; Also see Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7).

ALL of my sins...past, present and future have been forgiven. ALL of them.

 

[-57]

God's foreknowledge doesn't eradicate free will. They exist side by side.

God foreknowledge of you is not what saves you.
God has choosen who He will save before the world began.

 

[klutedavid]

The church never had justification by faith until Martin Luther and the reformation. And once it was believed, then everyone slowly drifted in that direction of interpretation of scripture.

This has continued in the church. Reformation -> Baptist & Methodist -> Adventist -> Finney-Moody -> Pentecost -> Apostolic

Now what has happened to me is I currently attending a modern Full-Gospel church, but also participating in an apostolic evangelist group. And even among Bible teachers I listen to, I hear differences. Now, most differences, who cares?

But some of the differences I have encountered concern salvation itself and the Gospel.

Paul says:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! - Galatians 1:8

But this is clearly happening... even happening among groups that are very similar. My church doesn't preach water baptism does anything, it is symbolic they say, and you just do it because you were told to. The apostolic group says it is required for salvation, as if you wont enter heaven without it.

And in my own research, I am trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong since I will be under a curse should I not get my interpretation correct.

My conclusion was a 3rd thing no one has ever preached before. This means that if I am correct, all of Christianity is cursed since I'm the only person with the true gospel.

And my human reaction is that this is ludicrous.

Why can't Christians understand the gospel? I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, but shouldn't someone understand it? And that group that does understand it, why are they right and all other Christians dead wrong and cursed?

But this applies to any topic really about scripture. "I'm right because I have 5 verses plus my own interpretation of those 5 verses, and I ignored 10 verses to come up with these 5... " This seems to be Christianity's interpretation of scripture.

Hello Razare.

The apostles themselves struggled with the enormity of the revelation
of the Christ to humanity. I do not know how long it took the apostle
Paul, to fathom the depths of this revelation. It certainly was not over
night, Paul must have been crushed to learn. That it was not a righteousness
through the law that God was after, but the very righteousness of Christ. The
perfect righteousness of Christ given to anyone who believes in the Christ.

The Gospel message is a very simple message, the belief in the death and
resurrection of the Christ. And receiving through Grace the Holy Spirit, the seal
of our salvation. Then in the joy of being fully acceptable to God through His
Son, we endeavor to minimize sin and love others.

Nothing more than a simple message and a handful of doctrines. Yet when
one examines different church organizations around the world. The Gospel
is anything but a simple message. I really believe if the apostle Paul saw
some of the churches today and their doctrines. Paul would be deeply amazed
how far from the simple truth, we have strayed.

I do not believe that the historical churches have delivered the simple message
of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to humanity. They some how were mislead along
the way. Paul got it right, almost everyone else has missed the mark ever since.

 

[Alithis]

Anyone who wants to save themselves better be perfect. But God's Word says that anyone who says they don't sin, the truth is not in them.

no it doesn't ..
it says if any says they "have no sin" .. not do not sin . if a person knows it sin and they still do it .that is rebellion .
and when would a person say they have sin ? simple , when God tells them they have sin. and why does god convict people of sin? so they can repent and be forgiven and when he forgives them and cleanses them from ALL unrighteousness (not some) they are then without sin for god has declared them cleansed just as he declared them to be sinners . and now they are to "GO and sin no more " as he told the accused woman . if they Go and do not return and do the sin he forgave them more then they can say they 'do not sin' .and still be perfectly truthful and in line with God for they do not go back and do the sin he forgave them for and cleansed them off.

they have repented .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

they have repented .

And turn to God every day to life HIS WAY, HIS KINGDOM, TODAY, saved from the control of sin, from the control of satan, from the control of the flesh, society, and everything not of HIM.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No amount of ranting on your part will change the fact that James pretty much kills the notion of "faith alone". I don't "demonize" the notion, I state what scripture makes plain "faith without works is dead", end of discussion. There are no end of folks who claim endless faith, but their behavior is no better than the heathen.

Here is where we have the disconnect, you claim that it is good enough to feel the part, I state that one needs to DO the part.

Not really. If we are spiritually dead before we are saved, then just as one can be spiritually dead or spiritually alive, one's faith in living it out can be dead as in not used, not active or alive faith which is used each day.

If one's faith is dead, that does not mean that it is faith + works. You are reading things into it that are not there, although this is very common in James.

 

[Goatee]

ALL of my sins...past, present and future have been forgiven. ALL of them.

So you can sin as freely as you like then?

 

[ToBeLoved]

no it doesn't ..
it says if any says they "have no sin" .. not do not sin . if a person knows it sin and they still do it .that is rebellion .
and when would a person say they have sin ? simple , when God tells them they have sin. and why does god convict people of sin? so they can repent and be forgiven and when he forgives them and cleanses them from ALL unrighteousness (not some) they are then without sin for god has declared them cleansed just as he declared them to be sinners . and now they are to "GO and sin no more " as he told the accused woman . if they Go and do not return and do the sin he forgave them more then they can say they 'do not sin' .and still be perfectly truthful and in line with God for they do not go back and do the sin he forgave them for and cleansed them off.

they have repented .

Well, the problem with your theory is that any sin can be repented of. We are told in God's Word that repented for sin is gone. God casts the sin once repented for as far as the east is from the west (that is kinda far).

What people do that believe such as you do, is they are unable to see the difference between forgiven sin and unforgiven sin.

Of course Jesus tells us to sin no more. That is what we all strive for. But God seems to have thought people might have problems with sin after salvation because in God's Word it says:

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Sanctification is not thought of by God as no sin. Sanctification is understanding our sin and growing in that knowledge to become more like Christ.

Have a blessed day.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So you can sin as freely as you like then?

Why is that always the thought when someone says their sin has been forgiven by Christ?

Have your sins not been forgiven by Christ? If yes, than what is it that you object to? The argument that those who think they are forgiven or I should say know they are forgiven that a person then feels that is a license to sin is pure speculation. And propagated all the time by people who add words to what someone has said.

More labels on Christians by Christians than anywhere else. You would think we are at war with each other the way some act.

Not talking to you specifically, just talking about your question in general

 

[Goatee]

Why is that always the thought when someone says their sin has been forgiven by Christ?

Have your sins not been forgiven by Christ? If yes, than what is it that you object to? The argument that those who think they are forgiven or I should say know they are forgiven that a person then feels that is a license to sin is pure speculation. And propagated all the time by people who add words to what someone has said.

More labels on Christians by Christians than anywhere else. You would think we are at war with each other the way some act.

Not talking to you specifically, just talking about your question in general

I understand. It is wrong for someone to say that once forgiven then all sins are forgiven as one needs to repent and ask forgiveness every time one sins. In my case, by going to confession.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Don't know what context you mean for this.

The penalty for sin is death, yes.

Either a man dies for his sins,

or Y'SHUA MESSIAH died for his sins.

But what about the Old Testament people? The 10 Commandments were in effect in the Old Covenant. And breaking one commandment is the same as breaking all of them.

And YShua Messiah was not born yet.

So, how are you applying the Messiah's atonement for sin to the Old Covenant 10 Commandments?