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Why are Christians living like the rest of the world?

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seekthetruth909

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Please read the reviews of the book below and comment on why most Christians are no different in many aspects as non-Christians.
Thank you

God Bless


Scandal Of The Evangelical Conscience:

Author: Ronald J. Sider is professor of theology, holistic ministry, and public policy as well as director of the Sider Center on Ministry and Public Policy at Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is also a president of Evangelicals for Social Action

Why Are Christians Living Just Like The Rest Of The World

From Publishers Weekly
This stinging jeremiad by Sider (Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger) demands that American Christians start practicing what they preach. Evangelical Christians, says Sider, are very much like their non-Christian neighbors in rates of divorce, premarital sex, domestic violence and use of pornography, and are actually more likely to hold racist views than other people.

Why the discrepancy between American Christians' practices and what the Bible teaches? Sider decries the materialism of most churches, marshaling evidence to demonstrate that American Christians' charitable giving has decreased even while their income has risen. Although they are collectively the wealthiest Christians in the history of the world, they don't take care of the poor, he says. Sider reviews the New Testament to argue that

Christians can't accept Jesus as their Savior without also honoring him as their Lord and obeying his teachings. In the final chapters, he insists that Christians must strengthen their accountability to the church and "dethrone mammon" (money) as the real object of worship. Sider's issues are of course selective; despite careful attention to the subject of racial inequality, there is no mention of gender inequality, and Sider quotes no women alongside such heavyweights as Wesley and Bonhoeffer. Still, his criticisms are incisive and prophetic. (Feb.)

Book exert
Once upon a time there was a great religion that over the centuries had spread all over the world. But in those lands where it had existed for the longest time, its adherents slowly grew complacent, lukewarm, and skeptical. Indeed, many of the leaders of its oldest groups even publicly rejected some of the religion's most basic beliefs.

In response, a renewal movement emerged, passionately championing the historic claims of the old religion and eagerly inviting unbelievers everywhere to embrace the ancient faith. Rejecting the skepticism of leaders who no longer believed in a God who works miracles, members of the renewal movement vigorously argued that their God not only had performed miraculous deeds in the past but still miraculously transforms all who believe. Indeed, a radical, miraculous "new birth" that began a lifetime of sweeping moral renewal and transformation was at the center of their preaching. Over time, the renewal movement flourished to the point of becoming one of the most influential wings of the whole religion.

Not surprisingly, the movement's numbers translated into political influence. And the renewal movement was so confident of its beliefs and claims that it persuaded the nation's top political leader to have the government work more closely with religious social service organizations to solve the nation's horrendous social problems.
Members of the renewal movement knew that miraculous moral transformation of character frequently happened when broken persons embraced the great religion. They also lobbied politicians to strengthen the traditional definition of marriage because their ancient texts taught that a lifelong covenant between a man and a woman was at the center of the Creator's design for the family.

Then the pollsters started conducting scientific polls of the general population. In spite of the renewal movement's proud claims to miraculous transformation, the polls showed that members of the movement divorced their spouses just as often as their secular neighbors. They beat their wives as often as their neighbors. They were almost as materialistic and even more racist than their pagan friends. The hard-core skeptics smiled in cynical amusement at this blatant hypocrisy. The general population was puzzled and disgusted. Many of the renewal movement's leaders simply stepped up the tempo of their now enormously successful, highly sophisticated promotional programs. Others wept.

This, alas, is roughly the situation of Western or at least American evangelicalism today.

Scandalous behavior is rapidly destroying American Christianity. By their daily activity, most "Christians" regularly commit treason. With their mouths they claim that Jesus is Lord, but with their actions they demonstrate allegiance to money, sex, and self-fulfillment.

The findings in numerous national polls conducted by highly respected pollsters like The Gallup Organization and The Barna Group are simply shocking. "Gallup and Barna," laments evangelical theologian Michael Horton, "hand us survey after survey demonstrating that evangelical Christians are as likely to embrace lifestyles every bit as hedonistic, materialistic, self-centered, and sexually immoral as the world in general."1 Divorce is more common among "born-again" Christians than in the general American population. Only 6 percent of evangelicals tithe. White evangelicals are the most likely people to object to neighbors of another race. Josh McDowell has pointed out that the sexual promiscuity of evangelical youth is only a little less outrageous than that of their non-evangelical peers.

Alan Wolfe, famous contemporary scholar and director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life, has just published a penetrating study of American religious life. Evangelicals figure prominently in his book. His evaluation? Today's evangelicalism, Wolfe says, exhibits "so strong a desire to copy the culture of hotel chains and popular music that it loses what religious distinctiveness it once had."2 Wolfe argues, "The truth is there is increasingly little difference between an essentially secular activity like the popular entertainment industry and the bring-'em-in-at-any-cost efforts of evangelical megachurches."3




It is not surprising that George Barna concludes, "Every day, the church is becoming more like the world it allegedly seeks to change."4 We have very little time, he believes, to reverse these trends. African Christian and famous missions scholar Professor Lamin Sanneh told Christianity Today recently that "the cultural captivity of Christianity in the West is nearly complete, and with the religion tamed, it is open season on the West's Christian heritage. I worry about a West without a moral center facing a politically resurgent Islam."5

Our first concern, of course, must be internal integrity, not external danger. What a tragedy for evangelicals to declare proudly that personal conversion and new birth in Christ are at the center of their faith and then to defy biblical moral standards by living almost as sinfully as their pagan neighbors.

Graham Cyster, a Christian whom I know from South Africa, recently told me a painful story about a personal experience two decades ago when he was struggling against apartheid as a young South African evangelical. One night, he was smuggled into an underground Communist cell of young people fighting apartheid. "Tell us about the gospel of Jesus Christ," they asked, half hoping for an alternative to the violent communist strategy they were embracing.

Graham gave a clear, powerful presentation of the gospel, showing how personal faith in Christ wonderfully transforms persons and creates one new body of believers where there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, rich nor poor, black nor white. The youth were fascinated. One seventeen-year-old exclaimed, "That is wonderful! Show me where I can see that happening." Graham's face fell as he sadly responded that he could not think of anywhere South African Christians were truly living out the message of the gospel. "Then the whole thing is a piece of sh—," the youth angrily retorted. Within a month he left the country to join the armed struggle against apartheid—and eventually giving his life for his beliefs.

The young man was right. If Christians do not live what they preach, the whole thing is a farce. "American Christianity has largely failed since the middle of the twentieth century," Barna concludes, "because Jesus' modern-day disciples do not act like Jesus."6 This scandalous behavior mocks Christ, undermines evangelism, and destroys Christian credibility.

If vital Christian faith is to survive, we must understand the depth of the crisis, discover why it has happened, and develop obedient, faithful correctives. My prayer is that just as Mark Noll's book The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind did much to strengthen evangelical thinking, so a forthright acknowledgment of this sorry state of affairs will renew evangelical resolve to live what we preach.






Reviews

A Much Needed Treatise On What A Christian Should Be, February 20, 2005
Reviewer: James R. Pond (Phnom Penh, Cambodia) - See all my reviews

Ron Sider's most famous work is "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger" - a book which typically scares off many Christians because of its convictions to change the way in which we conduct our lives, sets the stage for his new book. In his earlier work Sider hits a nerve. In particular, world hunger and the way we spend our money! This touches a soft spot with the evangelical community and, the result is, many run the other direction. My ethics professor at Fuller Seminary got me to read this book, which has transformed my life. Now, Sider's "Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience" builds off of his former work, but addresses a broader focus - the hypocritical way Christians tend to live (opposed to what they profess)! Sider calls the community of faith to take a long, hard critical look at itself to embrace the 'real' teachings of Jesus.

The first portion of the book is a litany of staggering statistics that point to a lukewarm and selective obedience to Jesus's teachings. Sider continues by reinforcing the biblical mandate to live a life of obedience to the whole gospel - not in legalism, but a process of 'becoming' more like Jesus.

The remainder of the book addresses the 'cheap grace' of Bonhoeffer and the resulting misguided direction of the church. Sider, in his usual form, offers genuine answers to how we can turn things around and live a faithful life in Christ. This is not a self-righteous treatise, but a sincere call for those who claim to believe in the gospel to live it! This is a short and easy read - perfect for any and all Christians to read, reflect, and act upon!

Prodding the Evanelical Conscience, February 1, 2005

Reviewer: Halden Doerge (Portland, OR United States) - See all my reviews

As the subtitle of this book indicates, Ron Sider here seeks to discover, why Christians are so often living just like the rest of the world, rather than embodying the gospel in all areas of their lives. What follows is a strong critique of the ways in which the evangelical subculture in America has failed to stand against racism, poverty, individualism and violence. This is followed by a thorough examination of the biblical teaching on such issues and a re-evaluation of the nature of the gospel in all its holistic dimensions. Also included is an excellent chapter on the centrality of the church as a distinct community over against the world.
On the whole, I think this an excellent book which makes a passionate case for evangelical social action without bypassing the centrality of the church and substantive Christian convictions. It also has the quality of being extremely well-written. This book will likely be helpful to Christians in all walks of life. Highly recommended.


It perpetuates the evangelical dysfunction, September 30, 2005
Reviewer: Heather M. Bryant (Kansas City, MO) - See all my reviews

Thesis: Within evangelical Christianity there is a gross inconsistency between Christian beliefs and Christian living. Ronald Sider argues that for Christian faith to survive an understanding and an uncovering of the depth of this dichotomy is in order. Recognizing the rationale behind this crisis serves as a catalyst for a faithful corrective calling all to prophetic awareness, repentant obedience, vivid honesty, and compassionate love.

Structure: Ronald Sider introduces The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience by reciting a brief history of evangelical Christians. He explores the call of evangelicals as christianizing Christianity by living out fundamental Christian values. He begins to argue that this attempt was a huge success initially but as time continued it became increasingly evident that there was incongruency between evangelical values and evangelical behavior. This behavior mirrored that of the rest of world. This book begins examining the depth of the crisis by exploring evangelical behavior of values in which evangelicals find essential. He places importance of holding beliefs, values, and practices together to witness to a Christian God. He argues this as he examines the New Testament passages, philosophy, and theology. Primary themes that Sider argues in these pages to encourage disengagement between behavior and practices are the following:

* The Evangelical political agenda never includes the poor.
* Evangelicals fail to define the gospel properly (He presents that it is about the Kingdom of God and not the forgiveness of sins.)

Sider further argues that the evangelical community has two options, either live like the culture around them or live like the church. He argues for an ecclesial hope and offers affirmation that his research has also discovered that there are 2 or 3 % of evangelicals that are super saints that embody a kingdom ethic. He concludes by calling all evangelicals to mourn, repent, obey and trust in the God who transforms.

Specifics, Arguments, Answers, and Conclusions:
What does Sider mean when he says that evangelicals' are scandalous?
* The percentage of "born again Christians" who have divorced is higher than that of non-Christians. (26% vs. 22%)
* Though average incomes of Christians have increased, giving has decreased over the past several decades.
* Sexual disobedience is not as much of a concern today as it was in the past among evangelicals
* On issues of racism, evangelicals are lacking and do not express the importance of addressing racial injustices on a systemic level.
* There is a greater chance of domestic abuse in evangelical marriages

Though Sider does not say this explicity, it is ironic that evangelicals, who affirm the authority of the Bible, do not necessarily live biblically Christian lives. To make this point Sider works through various books of the New Testament showing the discrepancies between evangelical and biblical practices.
A few are as follows:
* The gospels show us how Jesus calls us to radical, costly discipleship.
* Acts presents an economic vision where there were no needy persons among the early church.
* Romans is very explicit about the importance of righteous lives and how faith in Christ engenders righteousness
* The letters to the Corinthians warn us about mixing sinners in the Body of Christ and caring for the poor.
* Sider notes that Tertullian acknowledged the contrast (in his day) between the Christian community and its enemies. Christians cared and loved believers, unbelievers, enemies and the marginalized.

To answer why there is this discrepancy, Sider says that evangelical Christians have ascribed to "cheap grace" rather than the whole Gospel.
* Cheap grace is the reduction of the gospel to mere forgiveness of sins.
* Cheap grace says salvation is escape from Hell.
* Cheap grace reduces persons to mere souls.
* Cheap grace reduces the severity of sin.
* Cheap grace embraces individualism, materialism, and relativism.
* Cheap grace lacks a biblical worldview.

In order to answer to these problems Sider says that there needs to be better understandings of the gospel and salvation.
* The gospel is about the kingdom of God
* Forgiveness is just one part of the kingdom of God
* The Kingdom requires both words and deeds (i.e. confessing Christ and submitting to him as Lord).
* Salvation calls for a lifetime of costly discipleship.

Sider also argues that evangelical Christians have conformed to popular culture. The influences of modern and postmodern paradigms have greatly reduced the appearance of the necessity of God.

In response, he calls for the church to re-orient around six crucial points.
* Jesus is the source and center.
* The church is holy.
* The church is a community rather than an aggregate of individuals.
* The church is counter-cultural in lifestyle.
* Mutual accountability and responsibility are essential to sustainability of the church as a counter-cultural kingdom community.


In his closing arguments, Sider mentions that there is hope for evangelicals.
* Prayer can move evangelicals in the right direction.
* Re-establishment of unison between orthodoxy and orthopraxis.
* The Lord Jesus Christ is open and willing to transform his church.


A brief but vital read for every Christian, July 6, 2005

Reviewer: Herman B. Norville, Jr. - See all my reviews

In an increasingly self-centered society, Christians fail to follow the admonition of the Apostle Peter to be the "peculiar people" (1 Peter 2:9) set aside for God's work. As Mr. Sider did in his "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger", the average American Christian is taken to task for his/her lack of distinction from the rest of society. Mr. Sider provides a vast ammount of data to prove that the true tragedy of our time is the inability of Christians to act and think differently from unbelievers. The scope of this tragedy is reinforced by Mr. Sider's use of scripture to underline just where today's Christians have fallen short and how far we must go to change things. The book's short commings are only that some of the material is clearly reused from other books by Mr. Sider, and it is somewhat short incomparison to the depth of the subject matter.
 

rocklife

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I only read about half of this, may read more later.

This seems to be a lot of judging outer works. God judges the heart. God sees the widow giving 2 mites, which is nothing in this world's economy, but God knows that is everything.

I also hear often from politics America is the most charitable country in the world. So that is at least something. I am not sure if that is still true, but I heard that a year or so ago.

Also, one other comment, yes many churches are becoming politically correct and the sin is creeping in and even condoned by many church leaders. I urge all christians to continue learning of Jesus and His teachings and Holy Spirit for themselves and not rely on their church leaders so much. Especially read the bible. I find bible reading and study very lacking. Daily is wonderful, even bible on walkmen tapes is very wonderful.
 
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Zecryphon

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Please read the reviews of the book below and comment on why most Christians are no different in many aspects as non-Christians.
Thank you

God Bless



First, do you have any reviews from any Christian sources for this book? I'm a little skeptical of the secular media because they will jump on any bandwagon as long as it bashes Christianity in general, and not just evangelicalism. Your question should read "Why do Evangelicals behave just like the rest of the world"? Since the group Sider has chosen to focus on is the Evangelicals not Lutherans, Methodists, Protestants, Presbyterians (by the way, giving is huge in the Presbyterian churches), etc.

The simple reason that Evangelicals or Christians as you've stated it, look like the rest of the world is because they most likely have not been presented with sound biblical teaching and do not understand why they need a savior or what it even means to be saved. I was part of the Evangelical movement for a few years and then part of a non-denom church and all I heard week in and week out were topical sermons. I kept hearing how God loved me, and how He desired a relationship with me, and how He sent His son to die for me so He could have a relationship with me. I also heard that all I needed to do since I was basically a good person, was to ask Jesus into my heart and all would be forgiven. There was no public confession of sin, we never recited a creed, such as the Apostle's, the Nicene or the Athanasian creed, nor did we ever hear any of these mentioned. The Apostle's Creed is a very basic summation and statement of faith for Christians. It's been said that if you can not affirm the statements in that creed, chances are you're not a Christian.

First, where in the bible does it tell you to "ask Jesus into your heart" and where does it say you're a good person? All this feel good Christianity is poison to the true gospel message. If you're not hearing Christ crucified, died, buried, and risen for your sin or if you've never heard that, then you're in real trouble. You have no reason to be a Christian. The message we're hearing should be Christ-centered and cross-focused, if it isn't, something is seriously wrong. All the warm fuzzies of how Jesus loves you may make you feel all warm and good inside, but you won't recognize your need for a savior, something most Evangelical churches leave out of their gospel presentations. Until the law of God breaks you and proves to you that you have lived a life that is in opposition to God, until you know God's standard and know how you measure up to that standard, and everyone falls short, you will not know why you need a savior. That in short is why Evangelicals and Christians in all denominations and non-denominations look like the rest of the world.
 
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seekthetruth909

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First, do you have any reviews from any Christian sources for this book? I'm a little skeptical of the secular media because they will jump on any bandwagon as long as it bashes Christianity in general, and not just evangelicalism. Your question should read "Why do Evangelicals behave just like the rest of the world"? Since the group Sider has chosen to focus on is the Evangelicals not Lutherans, Methodists, Protestants, Presbyterians (by the way, giving is huge in the Presbyterian churches), etc.

Ronald J. Sider is professor of theology and he quotes George Barna who runs the largest Christian polling group in America. The first review is Publishers Weekly a secular news organization but the reviews below that one are from Christian individuals.

There is nothing wrong with bashing ourselves in order to improve as Christians. Criticizing modern western Christianity is no way criticizing Christ; on the contrary it is doing what Christ commanded. Examine ourselves and get our house in order before we criticize others.

Professor Sider who is an evangelical Christian makes some excellent observations. Barna released data a few years ago showing that the divorce rate was higher for Christians than non-Christians in the American Bible belt. This is something to be concerned about.




The simple reason that Evangelicals or Christians as you've stated it, look like the rest of the world is because they most likely have not been presented with sound biblical teaching and do not understand why they need a savior or what it even means to be saved. I was part of the Evangelical movement for a few years and then part of a non-denom church and all I heard week in and week out were topical sermons. I kept hearing how God loved me, and how He desired a relationship with me, and how He sent His son to die for me so He could have a relationship with me. I also heard that all I needed to do since I was basically a good person, was to ask Jesus into my heart and all would be forgiven. There was no public confession of sin, we never recited a creed, such as the Apostle's, the Nicene or the Athanasian creed, nor did we ever hear any of these mentioned. The Apostle's Creed is a very basic summation and statement of faith for Christians. It's been said that if you can not affirm the statements in that creed, chances are you're not a Christian.

First, where in the bible does it tell you to "ask Jesus into your heart" and where does it say you're a good person? All this feel good Christianity is poison to the true gospel message. If you're not hearing Christ crucified, died, buried, and risen for your sin or if you've never heard that, then you're in real trouble. You have no reason to be a Christian. The message we're hearing should be Christ-centered and cross-focused, if it isn't, something is seriously wrong. All the warm fuzzies of how Jesus loves you may make you feel all warm and good inside, but you won't recognize your need for a savior, something most Evangelical churches leave out of their gospel presentations. Until the law of God breaks you and proves to you that you have lived a life that is in opposition to God, until you know God's standard and know how you measure up to that standard, and everyone falls short, you will not know why you need a savior. That in short is why Evangelicals and Christians in all denominations and non-denominations look like the rest of the world.[/quote
]

You have made some good points!
God Bless
 
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seekthetruth909

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I only read about half of this, may read more later.

This seems to be a lot of judging outer works. God judges the heart. God sees the widow giving 2 mites, which is nothing in this world's economy, but God knows that is everything.

I also hear often from politics America is the most charitable country in the world. So that is at least something. I am not sure if that is still true, but I heard that a year or so ago.

Also, one other comment, yes many churches are becoming politically correct and the sin is creeping in and even condoned by many church leaders. I urge all christians to continue learning of Jesus and His teachings and Holy Spirit for themselves and not rely on their church leaders so much. Especially read the bible. I find bible reading and study very lacking. Daily is wonderful, even bible on walkmen tapes is very wonderful.

A couple a months ago in the Pentecostal forum the subject of giving came up. An American Christian tax accountant in that forum said that in her work as an accountant she was surprised to find that Christians gave less to charity than non-Christians.
If her statement is true, why do American Christians as a whole give less to charity than non-Christians?

I agree with your sound advice.Thank you for your insights.We should read our bibles more and not rely on our church leaders so much. When you accept Christ it is a commitment, not a pastime.

God Bless
 
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rocklife

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A couple a months ago in the Pentecostal forum the subject of giving came up. An American Christian tax accountant in that forum said that in her work as an accountant she was surprised to find that Christians gave less to charity than non-Christians.
If her statement is true, why do American Christians as a whole give less to charity than non-Christians?

I agree with your sound advice.Thank you for your insights.We should read our bibles more and not rely on our church leaders so much. When you accept Christ it is a commitment, not a pastime.

God Bless
I appreciate your encouragement.

I don't know about the accountant's observation. That hasn't been my personal observation, but I am still a young christian. I like to work with others who have compassion for the poor and hurting, and haven't really looked at those who are not helping. That is just my personal practice, I fellowship with those who like to give.

I didn't really consider the difference in those claiming to be christian and the rest of america when I stated America gives the most charitable. I personally believe stingy churchgoers claiming to be christians need to examine themselves. Jesus says it is more blessed to give.

thanks for talking
 
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DArceri

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Let's not forget that Christains are some of the first to send a ministry of people to countries hit with natural disasters (ie. tsnamis, volcanos, ....).

But, it is true that most Christians are living lives no different than non-believers, (ie. self first). They need to be "rebuked" for hypocracy. If they are TRUE Christians, it will outwardly show through love and kindness (Jesus should be convicting them of any self-righeousness). To be a GENUINE Christian means you are "born of God" and you put God first and self last.

John 8:47
"He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Many Christians say they know Jesus, but in reality, they only know OF him.
 
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SoulFly51

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Your question should read "Why do Evangelicals behave just like the rest of the world"? Since the group Sider has chosen to focus on is the Evangelicals not Lutherans, Methodists, Protestants, Presbyterians (by the way, giving is huge in the Presbyterian churches), etc.

The term "Evangelical" includes all those denominations. "Evangelical churches" does not refer to a denomination. The term is more synonymous with "Protestant."

Most of the people on this forum are evangelical Christians.

Maybe you already know this and I'm misunderstanding?
 
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chava

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Long answer. Because Christianity takes in the trash of the world who are easily manipulated when someone says hey we care about you. They then try to change them through brainwashing, only it doesn't work because it's like a wife trying to change her husband, it never works. So they then put them in a large room with all of the already brainwashed people, call it worship or a seminar, and go to work manipulating them by showing them the little kids in the world who have worse than them and get the selfish pigs to think for one second about someone other than themselves. But when they walk out of that room they realize hey I'm still the same person and go back to being what they always were trash. Only now they have a new title... Christian!
 
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Long answer. Because Christianity takes in the trash of the world who are easily manipulated when someone says hey we care about you. They then try to change them through brainwashing, only it doesn't work because it's like a wife trying to change her husband, it never works. So they then put them in a large room with all of the already brainwashed people, call it worship or a seminar, and go to work manipulating them by showing them the little kids in the world who have worse than them and get the selfish pigs to think for one second about someone other than themselves. But when they walk out of that room they realize hey I'm still the same person and go back to being what they always were trash. Only now they have a new title... Christian!
:eek:

In response to the OP, many christians are not different outwardly than the world because it is much easier to say "I'm a christian." than it is to actually follow Christ and live that out. Because we are still busted up broken sinful people we just happen to be forgiven for those sins and some of us are better at following Christ and putting self last. Because accepting Christ as the leader and fogiver of your life can make you a Christian but does not instantly puta away all your selfish desires and past habits that is a slow and painful process which we all trip up on at least once in a while.

Oh, I admit to not fullyl reading the original excerpt so if I'm way off topic just kindly ignore me.
 
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Zecryphon

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The term "Evangelical" includes all those denominations. "Evangelical churches" does not refer to a denomination. The term is more synonymous with "Protestant."

Most of the people on this forum are evangelical Christians.

Maybe you already know this and I'm misunderstanding?
"The term "Evangelical" includes all those denominations."

No. The term Protestant covers all those denominations. Evangelical is a denomination. Some examples are: the Evangelical Free and Evangelical Covenant churches.

"Evangelical churches" does not refer to a denomination."

That is simply not true. See above.

"The term is more synonymous with "Protestant.""

Not at all. Protestant covers all of the Christian churches, while excluding of course the Catholic churches. In fact, I was taught that the word Protestant refers to those churches that stood in opposition or in protest to Roman Catholicism and its teachings.

"Most of the people on this forum are evangelical Christians."

That could be true, since evangelical with the way and with the spelling you've used here, refers to a person who goes out and shares the gospel or good news of Christ with the rest of the world. A person is an evangelical if they go out and spread the gospel message regardless of denomination. You can have an evangelical Catholic, an evangelical Methodist, an evangelical Presbyterian, an evangelical Lutheran, although with that one it gets a little confusing because of the ELCA denomination. Evangelical with a capital "E" is in reference to a denomination. Evangelical with a lowercase "e" is in reference to a person. Understand?
 
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Brian1040

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Please read the reviews of the book below and comment on why most Christians are no different in many aspects as non-Christians.
Thank you

God Bless




Here is what Jesus have to say to your question.

Matthew 24:5 (KJV)
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 13:6 (KJV)
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Luke 21:8 (KJV)
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
 
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New_Wineskin

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A couple a months ago in the Pentecostal forum the subject of giving came up. An American Christian tax accountant in that forum said that in her work as an accountant she was surprised to find that Christians gave less to charity than non-Christians.
If her statement is true, why do American Christians as a whole give less to charity than non-Christians?

When you have a law of "tithing" , these things happen . If they were encouraged to have a relationship with the Lord instead of the Law , you wouldn't see things like this .

I do find it interesting that a high percentage of those who actually say that they *agree* with tithing - don't . Yet , their people spend all of their time debating with those that don't agree but give much more generously , anyway . Their time would be better spent harassing those that say that they already agree .
 
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Zecryphon

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"When you have a law of "tithing" , these things happen."

Are you saying that if there were no law on tithing that people would actually give more? Or would they actually still give nothing, because there is no law commanding them to give anything?

Also, when we tithe, how much are we supposed to give? Do we have to give all of that percentage to the church or can we give it to people and organizations who need it for something other than a new church parking lot or an expanded campus?

"If they were encouraged to have a relationship with the Lord instead of the Law , you wouldn't see things like this."

Without the law there is no need for a relationship with the Lord. I don't see how you can have one without the other. But just out of curiosity, how would having a relationship with the Lord change anything? Why should it change anything? The Lord owns everything anyway, He certainly doesn't need our money. So why would a person be inclined to give their money to the Lord if it's already all His anyway and going back to your earlier suggestion that there is no law for tithing?
 
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tturt

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Some of it is not knowing what The Word says and accepting the world system such as:

(1) in relationship to handling finances Rom 13:8 "Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law," but we "buy" into needing the latest and the greatest

(2) - Phil 4:19 "But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus" compared to statistics that reflect Christians primarily vote based on the politican candidate's economical platform -

(3) Acts 20:35 "...It is more blessed to give than to receive" that contrast with the self centered lifestyle that is promoted at every turn.

(4) 1Co 6:19 "...know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit ..." just an example, yoga is increasingly encouraged and in meditation, people empty their minds which allows for the enemy.

These are just a few examples. Of course, once we know what The Word says, we then have to obey it.
 
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Nadiine

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A couple a months ago in the Pentecostal forum the subject of giving came up. An American Christian tax accountant in that forum said that in her work as an accountant she was surprised to find that Christians gave less to charity than non-Christians.
If her statement is true, why do American Christians as a whole give less to charity than non-Christians?

I agree with your sound advice.Thank you for your insights.We should read our bibles more and not rely on our church leaders so much. When you accept Christ it is a commitment, not a pastime.
God Bless

Reply by New_Wineskin:
When you have a law of "tithing" , these things happen . If they were encouraged to have a relationship with the Lord instead of the Law , you wouldn't see things like this .

I do find it interesting that a high percentage of those who actually say that they *agree* with tithing - don't . Yet , their people spend all of their time debating with those that don't agree but give much more generously , anyway . Their time would be better spent harassing those that say that they already agree .

1) They ARE encouraged to have a relationship w/ Christ over "Law" even when encouraged to tithe.. they aren't asking them to be under law, but using God's OT standard for giving.

2) Can I ask how you KNOW how "high" this % is who claim to tithe yet don't?
Are you directly involved in seeing each person's offering who claims they tithe to make such a statement? :scratch: :confused:

As far as Christians giving less to charity, I can vouch for our household that we give entirely to our church's (or thru other ministry's)CHARITY funds which go directly into our local community, (or into other charities like Samaritan's Purse) which is FULL of unwed/teen mothers and people barely making ends meet. & they just finished a toys for tots/shoebox drive to give toys to kids in hospitals & overseas, etc.

I'd much rather give thru the church BECAUSE WHEN THE CHURCH DELIVERS THE AID TO THE PEOPLE DIRECTLY, THEY ARE ALSO GIVEN THE GOSPEL with it.:D
Money & aid are helpful, but CHRIST is the source who can turn their life around, giving much greater aid in my opinion.

So, statistically, our household looks like it gives ZERO to charity, yet we do alot of charity THRU our church.
I would suspect many other Christians do as well when they give to their churches.
 
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pdfiddler

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"Most Christians are no different" Because "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor,and you shall have treasure in heaven;and come, follow Me". Mat.c19v21 NASB. Most Christians are not willing to take this step so readily. These folks like the social aspect,title and community acceptance,(that is also known as the proverbial Fig Leaf) associated with being"A Christian". "For through the Law I died to the Law,that I might live to God". "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me. Gal. c2v19,20 NASB "The first man is from the earth, earthy;the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly,so also are those who are heavenly". I Cor.c15v47,48 NASB. Religion has a way of pulling leaves and trimming branches in a persons life but never really puts the axe to the root. That's why religion is so popular. ADAMS Family or Gods Family? I am greatful that God is not very RELIGIOUS.:)
 
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fifi

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most christians are like the world because they are really and truly not saved we have to obey the the bible at all times not when we want to are feel like it but daily we must walk in the was of God everyone you meet for the most part if you ask are you saved they will say yes. because people have a twisted mind set of what salvation really is when you read the bible and it says dont drink well their are many christians and pastors that think it is ok to drink now why is that. because people are going to live by what they see other people do thats why at all times we must be an exsample to the world and not be part of it.:amen:
 
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