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Why are Catholics and Orthodox treated differently by protestants?

~Anastasia~

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Sorry I didn't mean to imply a hierarchy among people, no. There IS a certain ecclesiastical hierarchy for some organizational purposes, but no one is more "important" than anyone else (nor should we seek to be) and in the council it is my understanding that the vote of each bishop is equal. I'm probably not explaining very well. But the Patriarch of Constantinople (essentially the "highest-ranking" hierarch) is called "the first among equals". He has some administrative responsibilities but is also equal to all the others - it's nothing like the Pope in Catholicism, who is not only considered paramount but also now infallible in certain circumstances.

Sorry - too many words and I know I'm not explaining well.

Orthodoxy isn't about ranking, period. If there is any right competition, it's maybe joked about among the monastics in their efforts to be least - not greatest. But even that can't be overdone or a reverse-pride can be at work.

It was just my way of trying to illustrate that Jesus was talking about the lofty way some religious leaders were set up and admired - and that we are not supposed to do that.

I wasn't making any point about the Church at all. I apologize for the confusion.
 
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Gregory95

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Thank you very informative friend and well said thank you ! Ill think on the words you spoke and if I think of more ill send them your way if you don't mind

May the Holy Spirit guide us and not the flesh!
 
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nutroll

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In the world we will not find examples of hierarchy without an imbalance of power or prestige. And yet, when we look at the Holy Trinity there is hierarchy with absolute unity. This is what the Church possesses (though it can be abused by its members) -- a hierarchy with absolute unity which indeed flows from God. So even in calling a priest Father, we recognize a hierarchy and we give honor and respect to the priest, not as underlings grovelling for something in return but in love and unity. We call our bishops Master in a the same manner. But Bishops, Priests and Deacons live lives of service to God toward His Church. They may be masters and fathers, but they seek to serve everyone else. Again, it is always possible to point to abuses or poor examples, but most of the priests and bishops I know spend most of their efforts toward serving others and very little toward serving themselves. Indeed, I have never taken the word "Father" to be a compliment or an honorific, but rather as a reminder of the service that I am called to render to my parishioners. I am supposed to be a father to them, to teach them, to guide them and to lead them to Christ. And just like with my real children, that means service. I have spent many days and nights changing diapers, cooking meals, cleaning up after and comforting sick children. Now I am called to do the same (but usually more spiritual analogs) at church. I find being called Father to be humbling, rather than a source of pride.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you very informative friend and well said thank you ! Ill think on the words you spoke and if I think of more ill send them your way if you don't mind

May the Holy Spirit guide us and not the flesh!

If it could help then I am glad. Feel free to ask further, and I'm sure one of us can help you. This forum has always been so helpful to me.

And indeed, may we seek to follow God and not be led astray in the flesh!

God be with you.
 
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Gregory95

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If it could help then I am glad. Feel free to ask further, and I'm sure one of us can help you. This forum has always been so helpful to me.

And indeed, may we seek to follow God and not be led astray in the flesh!

God be with you.
I was thinking on the clothing of those who are priests and such

Is their clothing mean anything in particular like he is bishop he is deacon etc

If so can you help me understand why because when I read on Christ calling out scribes and pharisees on their cloths that sets them apart because it gave them a sense of superiority

Although I'm not saying this is why the orthodox are

I can't help but think it would be beneficial if they dressed as the normal is where they live granted its not immodest of anything like that
 
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~Anastasia~

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A small book could probably be written on this.

I looked for articles to share with you, but to be honest, each one I looked at had good points but also something not quite the way I would say it and potentially misleading/confusing to outsiders.

Yes, priests do wear special clothing (vestments) during services. This goes back to the priesthood in the OT. Like everything else in the Church, each thing has deep meaning (often in layers). The colors worn in different seasons -- for Nativity (usually red), Lent (purple), Resurrection (white/gold), and so on. The pieces also have meaning, and the priest says certain prayers when he puts them on. The epitrachion (a long wide strip worn around the neck) for example identifies him as a priest. I read it used to be made of wool to symbolize his responsibility to the "sheep", and is the very basic garment that might be worn as a "minimum" over the simple robe (plain black representing service or death to the world or plain white representing his own baptism) when performing an actual priestly role. It is worn differently for each degree within the Church, so that you can identify priests, deacons, bishops, etc.

The priest wears a full set of vestments during the Divine Liturgy. Our priest wears only his robe and epitrachion to do certain ministry for persons. When he's not actively in that role, all the elaborate vestments are set aside, and he wears either a black robe (cassock) or black slacks and shirt with a "dog collar". I've never known of a priest to actually wear liturgical vestments outside the context of Church - I think there are actual rules they are not supposed to when going out to meet people in general.

Priests are supposed to be generally identifiable as priests. I don't know how universally applicable in their lives that is supposed to be - I think only in public? There is a story that stayed with me from an Orthodox abbot (leader of a monastery - so a monk and ALWAYS in his cassock) and another minister/priest from a denomination I forgot. This abbot radiates Christ anyway. The two were walking together, and people would come up (even very unlikely-looking ones like "punk rockers") and greet the abbot and ask him to bless them or talk to him. He was a walking testimony and touched people constantly. The other priest/minister was used to walking around without any priestly garb at all and was struck by the effect the abbot had and commented on it.

I've known other monks who had this same effect. So I don't see it as parading around is rich clothing. Usually it's simple and black for these, and very effectI've (though their mannerism is certainly part of it).

That's just a start. But there is a LOT of meaning and prayers, etc. connected to what is worn in Church, and I think that's what you were asking. I can look for better articles, if you want.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Some of the priests garments come from the OT orders as Anastasia said above, but much also is influenced by the garb of what senators would wear in the Roman Empire. It was just common Dress back then, but seems over the top now I suppose.

Watch this and see if it helps, it goes into a brief explanation of liturgical garments and their symbolism

 
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☦Marius☦

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I mean though were can I find what exactly the oral tradition is I know of it but not what it says this is what I would like to find if you can refer me

Fr. Matt is correct, the early church fathers wrote much about the oral traditions that the apostle Paul commanded us to keep. Fear not they didn't just leave the church out wandering in the dark. The Apostles elected men they could trust, and these men wrote much and elected men they could trust, and they wrote much.
 
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Gregory95

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Where can I find these writing my friend
 
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~Anastasia~

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dzheremi

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When you are more advanced in your understanding of the Fathers, there are also further resources like the 'other' material on Tertullian.org (the stuff that didn't make it into the ante-Nicene and Nicene fathers collections, for various reasons). This stuff can be tricky because some of the personages are obscure and/or heretical (e.g., I think there's a translation of Nestorius' Bazaar in there, if I recall correctly), but it's still useful for the stuff like HH St. Cyril's commentaries, the letters of HH St. Dionysius to the Roman Popes Stephen and Xystus, and so on. Definitely go to places like CCEL first, though, because that's the more standard stuff befitting someone who is just starting out and might not know how to tell who is of what party, who is to be avoided, etc.
 
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ArmyMatt

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good call. that site also has, more specifically, some of the early apologists not in the ANF, such as St Aristides' Confession.
 
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dzheremi

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Yes, those too. It's one of my favorite websites.

There is also what amounts to a very easily searchable version of the CCEL material at Orthodox Church Fathers: Christian Theology Classics Search Engine, which I imagine would also be useful once you've got a hang of what you're reading there and are looking for the citation of a specific phrase within a given work. I've used it a bit when I have those "tip of the tongue" moments regarding a given quote or father, and want to make sure I'm not attributing to HH St. Cyril of Alexandria something that was actually written by HH St. Cyril of Jerusalem or something like that.
 
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dzheremi

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The website Early Christian Writings can also be useful to the properly disposed, I believe. One thing I like about it that I haven't seen in other collections is that in addition to having a lot of early writings, it organizes patristic references by chapter and verse , so that you can see here's what father X said about verse X, for those times when people might present you with a specific verse. For instance, here's the page as it appears regarding the Gospel of John. You can see "Patristic references" under the 'Resources' heading, though just like with Tertullian.org (or really any site, for that matter), you have to be on your guard for who exactly they're counting as fathers. (I don't use this site as often as others, so I don't remember if there is too much to gripe about on that account, but I have noticed that a lot of websites will include as Fathers people like Origen and others who were condemned by the Church in their day or subsequently, so y'know...treat every reference carefully and be sure to bring up any questions you have with people who are knowledgeable within whatever tradition you're looking at.)
 
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FenderTL5

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The story is by Abbot Tryphon and it's a beautiful story. Here it is in his own words.
 
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Rosie Q

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I've never known a Baptist who believed all Lutherans and Pentecostals were going to Hell. I have known quite a few who believed Catholics and Orthodox were.


I don't think it's about beliefs, really. Now, I'd stay out of any place where people try and identify others as destined for hell. I know of such Christians, but I don't know any. The kinds of Protestantisms I have felt most at home in are versions where the interest in, and the influx of ideas and practices from the historical churches is a major inspiration ...

But, I think your question is unfortunately worded. Maybe one shouldn't ask "what is it about us (Orthodox and Catholics)" but rather "what is it about them (Protestants)". Why do they think that way?

The Orthodox probably mostly think that the major division is between East and West. But for Protestants, the major division is between Protestants and historical churches.

I don't really think the issue is specific beliefs. It's about kinship. We (Protestants)a family. Sometimes family is the worst (the Hugenott wars) but we have plenty in common. The so called historical churches are more or less alien to us. They are easy to point out as that other group, those that are different.

For instance, Protestantism is mostly about what's in your head, while the historical churches also are practical, physical and visual. Maybe that's at the core, actually, of the differenthood that in some Protestants' eyes make Catholics and Orthodox The Other.
 
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Albion

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Reading your thoughtful comments here, I am inclined to think the answer really depends on which Protestants (and which churches) are being discussed.
 
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Rosie Q

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Reading your thoughtful comments here, I am inclined to think the answer really depends on which Protestants (and which churches) are being discussed.

It could well be so. I don't know these churches from the inside, that proudly label others as heretics who will go to hell.

But all the way from the Council of Chalcedon in 451, stuff that really was more about politics have been dressed in the clothes of theological differences. Today Eastern and Oriental Orthodox agree that the condemnation at that Council mostly depend on misunderstandings because of language problems plus political interests. Those ghastly "monophysites" don't exist. It was all largely misunderstanding, and slightly different ways of phrasing highly related concepts.

I'd like to remind that many Orthodox still don't accept Protestant baptism, but baptise those who convert. And before the Second Vatican Council, the Catholics considered us all heretics. *shrug*
 
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