seeingeyes
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I think that the bold is exactly right. He says stuff. He does stuff. And we can check and see if what He does lines up with what He says. And I think that's exactly what He wants us to do.
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True, we may not understand justice and righteousness, like a child doesn't always understand the parent's judgment. BUT - the bible is full of examples of God berating people for doing something when they did know better. Man isn't oblivious to what's fair and just. Paul said that even the gentiles have "a law unto themselves" telling us, basically, the difference between right and wrong.Our conscience may be skewed, and our understanding may be limited, but we have a basic idea. That's why we can say God is good - not just because "the bible says so" but because He has proven it. If all we had was His word, we might as well take the word of the devil, or some human for that matter, if we're so completely oblivious to what it means to be righteous.
That's not logical at all. The punishment fits the sin. The sin isn't eternal or infinite. God himself has said that some sins are worse than others, and they obviously don't carry the same punishment. There are maaaaany accounts of God simply forgiving people - why didn't He have to torture them infinitely? There are also accounts of the blood of animals covering sin - they took the blame, but are they in hell now, suffering for eternity? And most importanly, on this side of the cross, the punishment was laid on HIM. God has already punished Jesus for everything all of us have ever done wrong, and yet Jesus is not in hell as we speak. He did take the punishment, which is death (and whatever he went through those days before he rose again we don't know, but eternal hell it was not).Yes?
God's infinite holiness combined with God's justice IS the entire doctrine of hell. You are under the assumption, like I said, that the justice system on earth is the means by which God also judges. That thinking is just objectively wrong on a logical and biblical level. An "eye for an eye?" If you honestly thought that is the motto of Almighty God when people sin against Him, you would HAVE to believe in an infinite hell. An eye for eye, right? Well since people sin against an INFINITELY worthy and holy and good God, the punishment one must receive would be that of equal value, which would be an infinite punishment. Even with your earthly thinking, your logic must end up concluding the existence of an eternal hell regardless. How much more would we have to conclude an eternal hell if we realize His ways are not our ways?
I assume that sin stops when the sinner dies. So it's a good thing that only the righteous are granted eternal life. In Genesis we can see how God shut Adam and Eve, then sinful, OFF from the Tree Of Life, so that they WOULDN'T have eternal life. And sinners still can not eat of that tree.Also, you are under the assumption that sin ceases once you get to hell. Sin doesn't stop, it INCREASES. People in hell are not trying to repent to God, they are shaking their fist and gnashing their teeth at Him. The eternality of sin is another reason for the eternality of judgment/hell.
True, we may not understand justice and righteousness, like a child doesn't always understand the parent's judgment. BUT - the bible is full of examples of God berating people for doing something when they did know better. Man isn't oblivious to what's fair and just. Paul said that even the gentiles have "a law unto themselves" telling us, basically, the difference between right and wrong. Our conscience may be skewed, and our understanding may be limited, but we have a basic idea. That's why we can say God is good - not just because "the bible says so" but because He has proven it. If all we had was His word, we might as well take the word of the devil, or some human for that matter, if we're so completely oblivious to what it means to be righteous.
Yup, you and I are in the same boat here...I'm just gonna drop the thread, because there is too much of this to suit me:Precisely said:I love how everyone arguing in favor of a finite hell has completely ignored my post. This just goes to show these people do not want the truth, they just want a fairytale that makes them feel good. "I don't believe in a God that would torment people for eternity!" That's fine, but that aint the God of the Bible. Sorry. This "I don't believe in hell" heresy is a complete joke in light of scripture.
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. " -Revelation 14:10-11
" In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" -2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
"Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied." -Proverbs 27:20
"Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:" -Habakkuk 2:5
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." -Mark 9:43-44
It is? So someone who holds your head underwater and drowns you is the same as someone who holds your head under till you are almost dead, then pulls you out, then dunks you again, then pulls you out, then dunks you again, then pulls you out, etc. for three weeks?
You are just trying to justify a God who drowns an entire civilization as being different from a God who does it for longer periods of time. They both have the same personality. Besides our government uses waterboarding, but they don't drown people. So which is better? The torture and not being killed, or the death (murder).
I love how everyone arguing in favor of a finite hell has completely ignored my post. This just goes to show these people do not want the truth, they just want a fairytale that makes them feel good. "I don't believe in a God that would torment people for eternity!" That's fine, but that aint the God of the Bible. Sorry. This "I don't believe in hell" heresy is a complete joke in light of scripture.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. -Revelation 14:10-11
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; -2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. -Proverbs 27:20
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people: -Habakkuk 2:5
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. -Mark 9:43-44
Yup, you and I are in the same boat here...I'm just gonna drop the thread, because there is too much of this to suit me:
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May God Richly Bless you!
Is it a misunderstanding of God's holiness to have a hard time believing he can both be good and torture someone infinitely?
That's the way I feel about it too, but hopefully I'm getting it all wrong :/You are right that there is a lot of that going on from those who insist on eternal torment.
This is how the discussion has gone so far:
A: "I don't believe that nonbelievers are tormented in Hell forever".
B: "Why not?"
A: "Because the Bible teaches over and over again that the price of sin is death and destruction, not eternal torment."
B: "What about this verse that says that Hell lasts forever"?
A: "That verse says that Hell lasts forever, but says nothing about people being tormented there forever".
B: "Well what about this verse that talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth?"
A: "That verse is interesting, but once again, nothing about non-believers being tormented eternally in Hell."
B: "Well, what about this verse that says "they" will tormented forever?"
A: "The 'they' in that verse refers to the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, not to non-believers on the whole. In fact the specificity of that verse undermines the claim that eternal torment is the general fate of non-believers."
B: "Well, are you saying that the false prophet is not a non-believer?"
A: "No, I am saying that the false prophet is not all non-believers."
B: "Well, why do keep saying that Hell doesn't exist? I've shown you plenty of verses to show that it does."
A: "I have never said that Hell doesn't exist. In fact, I believe that it does exist and probably lasts forever."
B: "Then why do you keep saying that it's not eternal? If eternal life is eternal, then so is eternal hell?"
A: "I have not claimed that hell is not eternal?"
B: "Why do you keep ignoring what the Bible clearly says?"
A: "The Bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death and the fate of the wicked is their destruction; it never says anything about them be subject to eternal torment."
B: "But what about . . . [repeat the same 4 or 5 prooftexts as before]"
A: [Point out that those 4 or 5 prooftexts don't say what the ETs think they do]
B: "Hmph! Why do you keep ignoring Scripture?!?!?!?"
A:
I've now posted no fewer than twice an excerpt and link to a blog by a very prominent, well versed Pastor that answers the points very well, and I don't believe a single person even bothered to glance at it. That is the source of my frustration. We have page after page of the definition of slang and the word buddy, and a lot of emotion and feeling, but no substantive, scriptural based discussion or evidence.dies-l said:You are right that there is a lot of that going on from those who insist on eternal torment.
This is how the discussion has gone so far:
A: "I don't believe that nonbelievers are tormented in Hell forever".
B: "Why not?"
A: "Because the Bible teaches over and over again that the price of sin is death and destruction, not eternal torment."
B: "What about this verse that says that Hell lasts forever"?
A: "That verse says that Hell lasts forever, but says nothing about people being tormented there forever".
B: "Well what about this verse that talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth?"
A: "That verse is interesting, but once again, nothing about non-believers being tormented eternally in Hell."
B: "Well, what about this verse that says "they" will tormented forever?"
A: "The 'they' in that verse refers to the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, not to non-believers on the whole. In fact the specificity of that verse undermines the claim that eternal torment is the general fate of non-believers."
B: "Well, are you saying that the false prophet is not a non-believer?"
A: "No, I am saying that the false prophet is not all non-believers."
B: "Well, why do keep saying that Hell doesn't exist? I've shown you plenty of verses to show that it does."
A: "I have never said that Hell doesn't exist. In fact, I believe that it does exist and probably lasts forever."
B: "Then why do you keep saying that it's not eternal? If eternal life is eternal, then so is eternal hell?"
A: "I have not claimed that hell is not eternal?"
B: "Why do you keep ignoring what the Bible clearly says?"
A: "The Bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death and the fate of the wicked is their destruction; it never says anything about them be subject to eternal torment."
B: "But what about . . . [repeat the same 4 or 5 prooftexts as before]"
A: [Point out that those 4 or 5 prooftexts don't say what the ETs think they do]
B: "Hmph! Why do you keep ignoring Scripture?!?!?!?"
A:
I've now posted no fewer than twice an excerpt and link to a blog by a very prominent, well versed Pastor that answers the points very well, and I don't believe a single person even bothered to glance at it. That is the source of my frustration. We have page after page of the definition of slang and the word buddy, and a lot of emotion and feeling, but no substantive, scriptural based discussion or evidence.
May God Richly Bless you!
dies-l said:Sorry I missed that. I looked back over the last 10 pages or so and I don't see it, and I don't remember seeing it. Can you repost it?
Metal Minister said:An excerpt from a blog entitled "Is God A Monster".
Nearly fifty years ago, the British agnostic Bertrand Russell penned these words: "There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment" (Bertrand Russell, Why I Am Not a Christian).
Philosopher John Hick echoed those sentiments when he called hell "a perversion of the Christian gospel." He believed the doctrine of hell attributed to God "an unappeasable vindictiveness and insatiable cruelty."
We expect statements like that from fallen, unregenerate minds. But what do we do when we hear similar things from prominent, professing evangelical writers? "How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God..." (Clark H. Pinnock, "The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent").
It's become popular today for professing evangelicals to join the ranks of Pinnock, atheists, and agnostics in protesting the doctrine of hell. They are preaching sermons, writing articles, and publishing books, and some are wandering into the comment threads of Christian blogs. Here's a small sampling from Grace To You's blog in our recent series on hell:
"What kind of God torments people for all eternity?" "...Satan loves the false doctrine of eternal torment" "[eternal torment is] cruel and unusual punishment" "[eternal torment] makes God out to be a cruel tyrant," "absolutely cruel and malevolent" "How can you in your right minds even consider this to be justice?"
If the doctrine of hell as eternal, conscious torment hadn't been the position of the Christian church for two millennia, it might be easy to think we're seriously out of step--a bunch of mindless minions who worship a monster-god! But when you examine the biblical evidence, without an agenda, you'll find we sound a lot like Jesus and the apostles.
So, how could someone who claims to be faithful to Scripture ridicule the idea of eternal punishment? What is at the heart of their rejection of a never-ending hell? It's simple, really--they minimize the seriousness of human sin and guilt, and they distort the perfection of divine justice. That's the crime of Protestant Liberalism and every false religion.
Minimizing the Sinfulness of Sin
To one degree or another, we're all guilty of minimizing sin. I remember the first time I read the account of Lot's wife. God turned her into a pillar of salt as she was leaving Sodom. Her crime? A backward glance (Gen. 19:26). Reading that story as an unbeliever provoked me to ask the question: "Was that really an offense worthy of death--turning your neck to take one final look at your home?" As I explored more of the Bible, other accounts of God's judgment appeared equally capricious and severe to me.
Nadab and Abihu deviated from the priestly procedures. God consumed them with fire (Lev. 10:1-2). One man gathered wood on the Sabbath. God commanded Moses to stone him (Num. 15:35). Achan took a few forbidden items from the spoils of Jericho. God commanded Joshua to stone and then burn Achan along with his entire family (Josh. 7:24-25). Uzzah kept the ark of God from falling into the mud by reaching out his hand and taking hold of it. God immediately struck him dead (2 Sam. 6:6-7). Ananias and Sapphira lied to the apostles. God killed them both in front of the entire church. (Acts 5:1-10).
We often struggle to understand how something seemingly so trivial could enact such a severe judgment. Our flesh wants to cry out in protest, "That's not fair!" But responses like that reveal our failure to grasp the depth of sin. We see only actions--a devoted father gathering firewood to keep his family warm; a zealous Israelite anxious to keep the Ark of God off the ground--but God sees things differently, more clearly, than we do. He sees our sin as insurrection, rebellion against His holiness (Ex. 31:14; Num. 4:15). What's more, He sees the hidden motives and intentions at the core of our actions (Mt. 5:28; Heb. 4:12).
One of the most basic tenets of justice is that the punishment must fit the crime. So, if the ultimate punishment for those who die without Christ is hell, then what is the crime? What do men do to merit the eternal sentence of hell? Put plainly, they sin.
You can read the rest here:
http://www.gty.org/blog/B110518
May God Richly Bless you!
Are you referring to the smattering of prooftexts that you provide here that have been shown numerous times to be wildly misinterpreted by proponents of eternal torment?
May God Richly Bless you!
dies-l said:That doesn't answer any of my points, just insists that I am somehow in league with the devil for disagreeing with him, even though Scripture provides little if any evidence for eternal torment, and much evidence to cause reasonable person to reject that doctrine.
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