Why an eternal hell?

[dies-l]

Sorry, it's too clear to be misinterpreted by exegesis. Go ahead and show me your "eisegesis" as to why it is misinterpreted, because whatever you say definitely wont be exegetical.

There is now 90 pages of exegesis on the topic of eternal torment. Anything I say now would be repeating the same points I have made at least a half a dozen times already. And, when you admit that you haven't read any of it and still have the nerve to accuse me of eisegesis, I have no reason to believe that you would consider any reasoned argument that I might make. So, why would I waste my time?

 

[dies-l]

Stop!

Hold the Phone!

Think!

What would happen if God let everyone into heaven? Rapist, murderers, child molesters, thieves?

That is a good argument against universalism, not the one I would use, but a good one. But what does it have to do with the current debate?

 

[Armistead14]

Stop!

Hold the Phone!

Think!

What would happen if God let everyone into heaven? Rapist, murderers, child molesters, thieves?

Heaven will be full of people that did all these things and worse. It's not about the sin, but the sin nature. God won't allow the sin nature in heaven. We are all guilty of sin, no one is righteous.

 

[Metal Minister]

That doesn't answer any of my points, just insists that I am somehow in league with the devil for disagreeing with him, even though Scripture provides little if any evidence for eternal torment, and much evidence to cause reasonable person to reject that doctrine.

Also, ask yourself this question. If a person denied God in life, why would they suddenly love Him in hell? They wouldn't. They would continue to hate God, and considering our souls are eternal, that hatred would continue eternally. If you continue to hate God, why would He be just in simply ending your suffering when you were placed in suffering for hatred of God? He would be rewarding you by ending your punishment even though you hadn't repented.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[Blessedj01]

Stop!

Hold the Phone!

Think!

What would happen if God let everyone into heaven? Rapist, murderers, child molesters, thieves?

LOL, for some reason your post made me laugh.

 

[dies-l]

Please go to the site I listed. This was only one of many blogs that I chose, and they all contain scriptural basis for their determinations.

May God Richly Bless you!

Meh. You have already posted the part that you think is the most convincing argument. I am going to go out on a limb and say that a non-participant in this conversation is not going to have a well articulated response to it.

 

[dies-l]

Also, ask yourself this question. If a person denied God in life, why would they suddenly love Him in hell? They wouldn't. They would continue to hate God, and considering our souls are eternal, that hatred would continue eternally. If you continue to hate God, why would He be just in simply ending your suffering when you were placed in suffering for hatred of God? He would be rewarding you by ending your punishment even though you hadn't repented.

May God Richly Bless you!

I find it troubling that you would consider eternal death a reward. I sure wouldn't.

 

[Metal Minister]

Meh. You have already posted the part that you think is the most convincing argument. I am going to go out on a limb and say that a non-participant in this conversation is not going to have a well articulated response to it.

I didn't post the one I thought best, just one of many. I literally only took a part of one by random choice. (I've read the bulk of them and think they're all very good.)

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[Metal Minister]

I find it troubling that you would consider eternal death a reward. I sure wouldn't.

Which is more of a punishment for an eternal sin against God? To not exist or to burn for eternity?

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[holo]

I've now posted no fewer than twice an excerpt and link to a blog by a very prominent, well versed Pastor that answers the points very well, and I don't believe a single person even bothered to glance at it. That is the source of my frustration. We have page after page of the definition of slang and the word buddy, and a lot of emotion and feeling, but no substantive, scriptural based discussion or evidence.

May God Richly Bless you!

I've answered several points in your excerpt (I'll admit I rarely follow people's links to an argument, I'd rather read their (and not some other dude's) argument in their own post). But I don't think you've replied to my reply, but if you did, pleasy reply where you replied it.

 

[holo]

Or imagine... what if He let rockytopva into heaven...

 

[Metal Minister]

I've answered several points in your excerpt (I'll admit I rarely follow people's links to an argument, I'd rather read their (and not some other dude's) argument in their own post). But I don't think you've replied to my reply, but if you did, pleasy reply where you replied it.

My apologies, I cannot find your reply. Can you repost it for me?

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[holo]

and considering our souls are eternal

What's the biblical basis for saying that the soul is eternal? If it is, then what does it mean that God will give the righteous eternal life, and what does it mean that the wages of sin is death?

 

[Blessedj01]

I wish some of you would actually read your Bible.

 

[Armistead14]

I love how everyone arguing in favor of a finite hell has completely ignored my post. This just goes to show these people do not want the truth, they just want a fairytale that makes them feel good. "I don't believe in a God that would torment people for eternity!" That's fine, but that aint the God of the Bible. Sorry. This "I don't believe in hell" heresy is a complete joke in light of scripture.

“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. ” -Revelation 14:10-11

​

​

This verse seems to indicate that the torment that last forever {again ages} will be in the presence of the Lord and holy angels. Will the Lord and these holy angels be in hell watching the torment forever? The torment is day and night, does the sun go up and down in hell or could it be a metaphor to denote time?

 

[holo]

Which is more of a punishment for an eternal sin against God? To not exist or to burn for eternity?

May God Richly Bless you!

There it is again. "Eternal sin." I can't remember reading about such a concept in the bible. Neither can I remember anything from the bible that suggests God would not only grant eternal life to a sinner, but also, in effect, cause the sinner to sin infinitely and forcing Himself to punish the sinner infinitely. Speaking of which, is this eternal punishment something God WANTS to do or something He is FORCED to do?

 

[OzSpen]

What's the biblical basis for saying that the soul is eternal? If it is, then what does it mean that God will give the righteous eternal life, and what does it mean that the wages of sin is death?

If you are seriously interested in what the Bible says about hell and the immortality of the soul (you haven't demonstrated it this far), I have some of the biblical material online in my brief article, 'Immortality of the soul'.

I use material from both OT and NT.

Oz

 

[seeingeyes]

You are right that there is a lot of that going on from those who insist on eternal torment.

This is how the discussion has gone so far:

A: "I don't believe that nonbelievers are tormented in Hell forever".
B: "Why not?"
A: "Because the Bible teaches over and over again that the price of sin is death and destruction, not eternal torment."
B: "What about this verse that says that Hell lasts forever"?
A: "That verse says that Hell lasts forever, but says nothing about people being tormented there forever".
B: "Well what about this verse that talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth?"
A: "That verse is interesting, but once again, nothing about non-believers being tormented eternally in Hell."
B: "Well, what about this verse that says "they" will tormented forever?"
A: "The 'they' in that verse refers to the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, not to non-believers on the whole. In fact the specificity of that verse undermines the claim that eternal torment is the general fate of non-believers."
B: "Well, are you saying that the false prophet is not a non-believer?"
A: "No, I am saying that the false prophet is not all non-believers."
B: "Well, why do keep saying that Hell doesn't exist? I've shown you plenty of verses to show that it does."
A: "I have never said that Hell doesn't exist. In fact, I believe that it does exist and probably lasts forever."
B: "Then why do you keep saying that it's not eternal? If eternal life is eternal, then so is eternal hell?"
A: "I have not claimed that hell is not eternal?"
B: "Why do you keep ignoring what the Bible clearly says?"
A: "The Bible clearly says that the wages of sin is death and the fate of the wicked is their destruction; it never says anything about them be subject to eternal torment."
B: "But what about . . . [repeat the same 4 or 5 prooftexts as before]"
A: [Point out that those 4 or 5 prooftexts don't say what the ETs think they do]
B: "Hmph! Why do you keep ignoring Scripture?!?!?!?"
A:

Great recap!

But you left out 'repeat ad nauseum' at the end. You are the very picture of diplomacy.

 

[Blessedj01]

Philosophical arguments can't beat scriptural arguments.

 

[holo]

I couldn't find my post in this messy thread, I figure it'll be quicker to post a new reply, and it goes a little like this:

If the doctrine of hell as eternal, conscious torment hadn't been the position of the Christian church for two millennia, it might be easy to think we're seriously out of step--a bunch of mindless minions who worship a monster-god! But when you examine the biblical evidence, without an agenda, you'll find we sound a lot like Jesus and the apostles.

It's an overstatement to say that the christian church has been preaching the doctrine of hell for two millennia. Paul, for one, did not preach it.

So, how could someone who claims to be faithful to Scripture ridicule the idea of eternal punishment? What is at the heart of their rejection of a never-ending hell? It's simple, really--they minimize the seriousness of human sin and guilt, and they distort the perfection of divine justice. That's the crime of Protestant Liberalism and every false religion.

That's not fair. The fact that I reject a doctrine says nothing about why I reject it. For some people, the worse the message, the harder the salvation, the narrower the road, the fewer that find it, the more commandments one must keep, the more it scratches their itching ears. Just because the message that people will NOT be tortured forever by God is a wonderful and happy message doesn't mean it's false.

The way I see it, the problem isn't minimizing sin, but "maximizing" it, as it were. I don't know any verse in the bible that says stuff like "God is infinite, so sin against Him must have infinite punishment" or any such thing (on the contrary, God talks about one sin being more serious than another). But it does sound a lot like something you'd have to make up to justify your belief in a God who will burn you forever.

Just think about that for a moment. God - GOD - is going to TORTURE you. And never stop. After ten thousand millennia, He is still going to torture you for another million gazillion years and never ever stop. Please, just think about it for a minute.

Nadab and Abihu deviated from the priestly procedures. God consumed them with fire (Lev. 10:1-2). One man gathered wood on the Sabbath. God commanded Moses to stone him (Num. 15:35). Achan took a few forbidden items from the spoils of Jericho. God commanded Joshua to stone and then burn Achan along with his entire family (Josh. 7:24-25). Uzzah kept the ark of God from falling into the mud by reaching out his hand and taking hold of it. God immediately struck him dead (2 Sam. 6:6-7). Ananias and Sapphira lied to the apostles. God killed them both in front of the entire church. (Acts 5:1-10).

But that's nothing compared to eternal torture. You can't say that just because it may be righteous to punish someone with a fine, it must also be righteous to punish them by hanging.

One of the most basic tenets of justice is that the punishment must fit the crime.

My point exactly.

So, if the ultimate punishment for those who die without Christ is hell, then what is the crime?

Indeed, what IS the crime? What sort of "infinite" sin have I, or anybody else, committed?

And again (sorry if you've answered this already, I'm honestly losing track), if God could simply forgive sins like He often did in the OT, why must he torture anybody forever later? And if the blood of animals could cover sin in the OT, mustn't those animals be burning in hell as we speak? And, if Jesus did in fact pay for our sins, how can He not be in hell right now, suffering forever and ever?