Why an eternal hell?

[Timothew]

It doesn't say that it's a place of eternal torment. Not even one time.

 

[dies-l]

What is it that you disagree with? The fire part of hell, or the eternal part of hell?

These verses deal with the fire part.

Matthew 13:37-42

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the [a]end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the [b]end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [c]all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

49 So it will be at the [a]end of the age; the angels will come forth and [b]take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


As for the eternal part:

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46).

It's very clear. Hell contains fire. It is a place of eternal punishment.

Is this a deliberate strawman or have you really missed the point?

My disagreement is with the notion that non-believers suffer eternal torment in hell. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment in hell. "Eternal punishment" and "eternal destruction" are consistent with this notion. Death with no hope of resurrection is an eternal punishment. Destruction, with no hope of recreation, is eternal.

The promise of the Gospel is restoration and resurrection. Death and destruction that come with this are only temporary. Death and and destruction that come without this promise are eternal. Why do we keep evading the plain meaning of words to make hell out to be something that it isn't; hell as it relates to the topic at hand is the place in which the dead are destroyed forever.

 

[Timothew]

Is this a deliberate strawman or have you really missed the point?

My disagreement is with the notion that non-believers suffer eternal torment in hell. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment in hell. "Eternal punishment" and "eternal destruction" are consistent with this notion. Death with no hope of resurrection is an eternal punishment. Destruction, with no hope of recreation, is eternal.

The promise of the Gospel is restoration and resurrection. Death and destruction that come with this are only temporary. Death and and destruction that come without this promise are eternal. Why do we keep evading the plain meaning of words to make hell out to be something that it isn't; hell as it relates to the topic at hand is the place in which the dead are destroyed forever.

Exactly. So now that they have been proven wrong, they don't want to play anymore? Where is the apology for saying we don't believe the scriptures? They can say anything they want and just leave? What is that?

 

[theFijian]

You better stop, Fijian...you've already called God a liar by denying that Adam & Eve died on THE DAY God said they would. There is no equivocation justified here. Since their bodies were still alive then it was a spiritual death (separation from God) that occurred.

Emm, that's exactly what I said

Why is it hard for you to grasp that they died spiritually THAT DAY...

Emm that's what I am grasping...

and began to die physically THAT DAY?

Which is fine except you are inferring that from scripture, that's not what the bible actually says. As such I can't for the life of me work out why you claim I'm making God a liar by not adding to his word.

The fact is....ALL of us are dying. We are dying slowly because death is in our members and we will eventually complete the act of dying on the day God has appointed.

We will all die physically some day but our spirit will go to be with the Lord at the appointed time.

The proof of this is that death came into the world by Adam's sin...not by Adams death at 933 yrs.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

I don't think anything I said could be taken as disputing any of that.

 

[theFijian]

Exactly. So now that they have been proven wrong, they don't want to play anymore? Where is the apology for saying we don't believe the scriptures? They can say anything they want and just leave? What is that?

I would take martyrs with a large pinch of salt. He gets extremely indignant when someone has the temerity to disagree with him.

 

[theFijian]

Reference?

For the spiritually dead part or the spiritually dead through Adam part?

 

[dies-l]

For the spiritually dead part or the spiritually dead through Adam part?

Any and all.

 

[theFijian]

Does the bible ever use the term "spiritual death"?
I don't know if I have ever seen this phrase in the bible. I hear it quoted a lot. I've never seen it. I could be wrong, can someone show me "spiritual death" written in the bible?

Does the Bible ever use the term 'trinity'?

 

[dies-l]

Does the Bible ever use the term 'trinity'?

Thats a valid argument if and only if you show a biblical basis for the concept of "spiritual death".

 

[Timothew]

Does the Bible ever use the term 'trinity'?

No, but it can be easily proven that God the Father is God, God the Son is God and God the Holy Spirit is God.

Eternal Torment cannot be proven using scriptures and contradicts many other scriptures which state that the wages of sin is death and the penalty is destruction.

Does the Bible ever use the term "happy happy dancer"?

 

[AHJE]

Spiritual death?

Jesus said to Let the dead bury their dead ... didn't He?

 

[Martyrs44]

Emm, that's exactly what I said

Emm that's what I am grasping...

Which is fine except you are inferring that from scripture, that's not what the bible actually says. As such I can't for the life of me work out why you claim I'm making God a liar by not adding to his word..

Oh, gee, that's soooooooo hard to figure out now isn't it?

Yes, you are calling God a liar if you deny that Adam experienced a death on THE day God told him he would...

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17

It's not like you haven't been informed of this before...who knows how many times!

Adam sinned and was therefore spiritually separated from God on the day he ate the forbidden fruit...that's spiritual death...and the beginning of his physical death which happened over 900 yrs later. BUT..........death came into the world because of Adams sin (i.e. Cain killed Abel, Seth, Cainen, Enos, etc. died) long before he finally passed away. This is proof the curse of death was in the world long before Adam's body died.

You are responsible before God to understand this. There really isn't another alternative that makes sense and still be biblical.

I won't approach you on this again so things don't get ugly.

 

[Martyrs44]

Spiritual death?

Jesus said to Let the dead bury their dead ... didn't He?

He sure did. The people He was talking about were spiritually dead and needed to be saved.

 

[Timothew]

Spiritual death?

Jesus said to Let the dead bury their dead ... didn't He?

Yes, and He didn't say "Let the spiritual dead bury their dead", did He?

If someone talks about "spiritual death" what can anyone honestly say except "What in the world are you talking about, spiritual death is not in the bible?" If you can add "spiritual" to what Jesus said, why can't I add words to what He said? Perhaps he said "let the clinical dead bury the dead", "let the dead tired bury the dead", or "let the un dead bury the dead", The last example is fun because it also provides biblical proof for the existence of vampires.

 

[theFijian]

Oh, gee, that's soooooooo hard to figure out now isn't it?

Yes, you are calling God a liar if you deny that Adam experienced a death on THE day God told him he would...

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17

It's not like you haven't been informed of this before...who knows how many times!

Adam sinned and was therefore spiritually separated from God on the day he ate the forbidden fruit...that's spiritual death...and the beginning of his physical death which happened over 900 yrs later. BUT..........death came into the world because of Adams sin (i.e. Cain killed Abel, Seth, Cainen, Enos, etc. died) long before he finally passed away. This is proof the curse of death was in the world long before Adam's body died.

You are responsible before God to understand this. There really isn't another alternative that makes sense and still be biblical.

I won't approach you on this again so things don't get ugly.

So if I'm calling God a liar by not inserting words into scripture, then should we make of you. Well let's have a look shall we...

Rev 22:18 - I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to them the plagues described in this book...

Praying for you Martyrs

(I think from this we can see that even when in the main you agree with Martyrs he will still accuse you of things like calling God a liar!)

 

[Martyrs44]

Yes, and He didn't say "Let the spiritual dead bury their dead", did He?

If someone talks about "spiritual death" what can anyone honestly say except "What in the world are you talking about, spiritual death is not in the bible?" If you can add "spiritual" to what Jesus said, why can't I add words to what He said? Perhaps he said "let the clinical dead bury the dead", "let the dead tired bury the dead", or "let the un dead bury the dead", The last example is fun because it also provides biblical proof for the existence of vampires.

This kind of spiritual death.

"But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." I Tim. 5:6

You claim to be born again but you reject long held orthodox doctrines of the Christian faith which have been known and believed for ages:

Quote: "Let the dead bury their dead: there are enough to bury the dead; persons that are spiritually dead, not alive to God, let them take care of those meaner office." Matthew Poole Commentary on the Bible.

Quote: "The spiritually dead are always on hand to bury the physically dead, if one's real duty is with Jesus. Chrysostom says that, while it is a good deed to bury the dead, it is a better one to preach Christ." A.T. Robertson.

Quote: "When God calls, leave the business of the world to them who are dead to God.." John Wesley.

Quote: "Let the spiritually dead perform the office of burying those who are naturally dead. At present, your duty to preach the Gospel supersedes all other duties." British Family Bible.

Quote: "Let the dead; the spiritually dead. Bury their dead; the literally dead. Let those who are impenitent sinners without spiritual life bury your father, and do you now what I command you." Family Bible Notes.

Quote: "Let men, says he, who are uninterested in my work, and who are dead in sin, (Eph 2:1,) take care of the dead." Albert Barnes Commentary on the Bible.

Quote: "Leave the spiritually dead to bury their natural dead. All the common offices of life may be performed by any person; to preach the glad tidings of the kingdom of God is granted but to a few..."
Adam Clarke Commentary.

You are far off the mark but like the clearly stated, clearly understood doctrine of hell fire, you won't accept what is right in front of your eyes.

 

[Martyrs44]

So if I'm calling God a liar by not inserting words into scripture, then should we make of you. Well let's have a look shall we...

Rev 22:18 - I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to them the plagues described in this book...

Praying for you Martyrs

(I think from this we can see that even when in the main you agree with Martyrs he will still accuse you of things like calling God a liar!)

Pray for yourself. You are the one in error.

Bye.

P.S. Psssst: someone whisper to Fijian: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." for his eyes go blind on that verse.

 

[theFijian]

Pray for yourself. You are the one in error.

Bye.

P.S. Psssst: someone whisper to Fijian: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." for his eyes go blind on that verse.

Exactly... not ... "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely begin to die. Repeating your error only strengthens my point

 

[theFijian]

Any and all.

OK I didn't really think that the idea of being 'dead in trespasses and sin' through Adam's disobedience was that novel an idea.

Gen 2:15 - The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. [sup]16[/sup]And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; [sup]17[/sup] but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die

Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

Eph 2:4,5 - But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, [sup]5[/sup]made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

 

[Martyrs44]

He's on 'ignore' now. Anyone else?