Why an eternal hell?

[Timothew]

He's on 'ignore' now. Anyone else?

Me please and thank you!

 

[dies-l]

OK I didn't really think that the idea of being 'dead in trespasses and sin' through Adam's disobedience was that novel an idea.

Gen 2:15 - The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. [sup]16[/sup]And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; [sup]17[/sup] but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die

Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

Eph 2:4,5 - But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, [sup]5[/sup]made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Thanks. I asked for references because I notice that people throw around terms and ideas that are gleaned from their interpretation of Scripture that are not immediately clear to others, because those words and ideas do not explicitly appear in Scripture. Tim is right when he says that the Bible never mentions "spiritual death", so understanding where you glean that concept from is helpful in understanding what you mean by it.

The first two references aren't terribly helpful for me as they both appear to be talking about death in the everyday sense of the word (non-existence after a period of living). The reference from Ephesians is perhaps a bit more on point. It mentions that we were once "dead in our transgressions". I will have to meditate on this a bit, but at first blush it seems to be talking about the death sentence that all receive on account of out transgressions.

 

[dies-l]

He's on 'ignore' now. Anyone else?

Go ahead and put me on there as well if you don't mind.

 

[Timothew]

There's a much easier way to ignore everyone who disagrees with you, Martyr.
Just don't log on.

 

[Martyrs44]

Go ahead and put me on there as well if you don't mind.

Immediately.

 

[theFijian]

He's on 'ignore' now. Anyone else?

 

[Timothew]

There there, I know it's hard, the Martyr is dead to us now. We have to try to carry on the best that we can.

 

[createdtoworship]

I thought you said there was eternal torment. None of these verses say anything about eternal torment. Isn't there any verse spoken by Jesus or His Disciples that supports your belief that the dead are tormented forever in hell? My position is belief in what Jesus actually said. How do you know whether or not the Lord is pleased, anyway? Psalm 147:11 says that the Lord is pleased with those who worship him and trust his love. I worship the Lord. I trust his love. I know that true love doesn't torture anyone. So according to the Bible, The Lord is pleased with me. Do you trust his love? Do you think that he torments people?

how is the fire not being quenched NOT speak of eternal hell. Every fire I have ever known is put out eventually with TIME alone.

 

[Martyrs44]

"I thought you said there was eternal torment."

how is the fire not being quenched NOT speak of eternal hell. Every fire I have ever known is put out eventually with TIME alone.

That individual doesn't heed what the scriptures say.

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I've quoted every single verse in the N.T. on hell and it hasn't made a dent in his thinking nor that of his comrades who likewise deny the doctrine.

The teaching is very clear and very strong but that doesn't matter to him/them. Just thought you should know what you may encounter sooner or later.

P.S. I've enjoyed reading your posts. AND....I John 5:7 is a big

 

[dies-l]

how is the fire not being quenched NOT speak of eternal hell. Every fire I have ever known is put out eventually with TIME alone.

Fire that is eternal =/= eternal torment for individuals. You seem to assume that the fires of hell are eternally fueled by suffering humans. I would ask where you got that notion from.

 

[createdtoworship]

Fire that is eternal =/= eternal torment for individuals. You seem to assume that the fires of hell are eternally fueled by suffering humans. I would ask where you got that notion from.

red herring, I never said anything of the sorts. I merely suggest the fires to be eternal.

 

[dies-l]

red herring, I never said anything of the sorts. I merely suggest the fires to be eternal.

In that case, I don't see where you disagree with me. If you are not arguing that unredeemed sinners are tormented for eternity in hell, then I am not disagreeing with you. If that is what you are arguing, then your comment is admittedly off-topic.

 

[createdtoworship]

In that case, I don't see where you disagree with me. If you are not arguing that unredeemed sinners are tormented for eternity in hell, then I am not disagreeing with you. If that is what you are arguing, then your comment is admittedly off-topic.

why is it off topic? I said they burn forever in Hell?

The fires by definition do not go out.

Therefore the duration of Hell is eternal. That is the point I was making.

 

[dies-l]

why is it off topic? I said they burn forever in Hell?

The fires by definition do not go out.

Therefore the duration of Hell is eternal. That is the point I was making.

Your argument is that people burn forever in hell, which appears n
owhere in Scripture. My argument is that the unredeemed are destroyed in hell, which appears throughout the New Testament.

Your proof is that since the fires of hell burn forever, hell is eternal. But, it does not logically that people burn or are tormented there forever.
And since your argument is not logically connected to your proof and contradicts the plain meaning of the words in Scripture, it is not compelling to me.

 

[createdtoworship]

Your argument is that people burn forever in hell, which appears n
owhere in Scripture. My argument is that the unredeemed are destroyed in hell, which appears throughout the New Testament.

Your proof is that since the fires of hell burn forever, hell is eternal. But, it does not logically that people burn or are tormented there forever.
And since your argument is not logically connected to your proof and contradicts the plain meaning of the words in Scripture, it is not compelling to me.

so then in your view, the people die, and Hell just keeps on burning forever. See my point?

 

[Timothew]

why is it off topic? I said they burn forever in Hell?

The fires by definition do not go out.

Therefore the duration of Hell is eternal. That is the point I was making.

There is a difference between a fire being quenched and a fire going out by itself because all of the fuel is gone. If I have a campfire and I want to go to sleep right away, I throw a bucket of water on the fire. This quenches the fire. I often don't want to do this because I want the wood to burn to ash, so I don't quench the fire. I sit up late watching the fire until all of the wood is consumed. The fire is never quenched, it goes out when all of the wood is burned to ash.

You said "the fire is not quenched", this is true and biblical. It doesn't follow that the fire never goes out. The fire is just not put out (quenched), it can still go out when the fuel is gone without being quenched. Therefore "the fire is not quenched" is not proof that the duration of hell is eternal. It only lasts until the wicked are destroyed. After the wicked are destroyed, they remain destroyed forever. That's what "eternal destruction" means.

 

[Kormagh]

What purpose does it truly serve? Is there anything one person can do that is so horrible that they deserve an eternity of indefinite torture? No bible quotes please just opinions. The bible can be interpreted every which way and there are verses supporting both sides of either arguments. What purpose does an eternal hell serve? Or an afterlife for that matter. What do we accomplish by being alive after death, or more importantly what does god? Supposedly only humans are allowed this divine privilege. Perhaps other creations are considered inferior? Just curious what anyone thinks on the matter.

Humans were made in the image of God. God is perfect and we have sinned against him. God, being perfectly just, must punish sinners; and since we have sinned against the most perfect, holy being in the universe, even the smallest act of disobedience toward him is justly deserving of an eternity in the lake of fire that was prepared for Satan and the angels that followed him in disobedience.

Sent from my dumb smart phone using CF

 

[Timothew]

Humans were made in the image of God. God is perfect and we have sinned against him. God, being perfectly just, must punish sinners; and since we have sinned against the most perfect, holy being in the universe, even the smallest act of disobedience toward him is justly deserving of an eternity in the lake of fire that was prepared for Satan and the angels that followed him in disobedience.

Interesting. Can I see the scripture you used to come to this conclusion?
Paul said that the result of sin is death, and death entered the world through sin. (Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23, basically all of Romans 5 and 6)
Where does the bible say "the smallest act of disobedience toward God is justly deserving of an eternity in the lake of fire"?

 

[dies-l]

so then in your view, the people die, and Hell just keeps on burning forever. See my point?

No, I don't. Are humans the only beings that are punished in Hell?

 

[dies-l]

There is a difference between a fire being quenched and a fire going out by itself because all of the fuel is gone. If I have a campfire and I want to go to sleep right away, I throw a bucket of water on the fire. This quenches the fire. I often don't want to do this because I want the wood to burn to ash, so I don't quench the fire. I sit up late watching the fire until all of the wood is consumed. The fire is never quenched, it goes out when all of the wood is burned to ash.

You said "the fire is not quenched", this is true and biblical. It doesn't follow that the fire never goes out. The fire is just not put out (quenched), it can still go out when the fuel is gone without being quenched. Therefore "the fire is not quenched" is not proof that the duration of hell is eternal. It only lasts until the wicked are destroyed. After the wicked are destroyed, they remain destroyed forever. That's what "eternal destruction" means.

Interesting point. It would appear that even I have been reading too much into that passage.