Why an eternal hell? (2)

[seeingeyes]

eternal hell = not in the bible

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So you've done some studying up, then? I seem to remember that you started one of these hell threads awhile back. Have you learned a lot (other than the fact that threads on hell are hell )?

 

[blankCrossfire]

eternal hell = not in the bible

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If God is eternal, sinners will reap their just retribution for eternity.
The wages of sin is death.

Jesus Christ is the only way we can be seen as righteous, without blemish.
Our sins are washed by His blood. Sinners in hell will never be forgiven. They will receive their just retribution for as long as God lives. Jesus Christ didn't die for nothing.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

Fred V B,

"Once again, torture in eternity is not mentioned but torment is, which was explained several times. The burning is a metaphor, there will be anguish there is anguish forever that is mentioned, what it will be will be in total fairness as Yahweh is perfectly just in his goodness, how is that saying he is evil let alone infinitely so? This is using twisted logic that does not recognize what is really said."

Not sure if I'm getting you right. Tormenting someone eternally for sins committed during a lifetime is "total fairness" how, exactly? How is it NOT unfair and evil to punish someone infinitely more than they deserve?

LOL, I like your Avatar, is that bamboo shoot?

There is nothing metaphorical about eternal torment. Those in eternal hell are given a "worm" unlike the human body and it is designed to withstand this troment. So in other words it will be unbearbly bearable. We, the ones born from above, endure the hell and torment of this current earthly plane we exist in as we await heaven, dont we?

We cant get our minds around hell because we dont understand how something can exist in such a place or why a merciful God would send anyone there. But scripture states that the smoke from their worm ascends for eternity. I liken it a stuntman who is set ablaze, he is in a specially designed suit to withstand the heat, but nevertheless it is incredibly uncomfortable.

I have had debates with many people who actually state that they do not want to go to heaven under any circumstance because they literally believe God to be evil, and that they actually want to go to hell because they think it will be one big giant party. A place has to be set aside for eternal beings who will not bow their knee and confess to almighty God.

That said, I did walk away from actively participating in Church fellowship for a year or two because my Pastor at the time coudnt give me a satisfactory reason for eternal hell. It is a very difficult thing for us to get our heads around. And exceedingly frightening if you ask me.

 

[ssammoh]

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

1. Satan will be burned forever. That might be why the fire is eternal.
2. Everlasting fire can mean the effects are eternal.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If your soul goes into nonexistence forever, the punishment lasts forever. It doesn't mean he destroys you over and over forever.
Just like if your mom grounds you for a week, the punishment lasts a week. It doesn't mean she grounds you over and over for a whole week.

If God is eternal, sinners will reap their just retribution for eternity.

Even if eternal torment is a true doctrine, God being eternal doesn't prove it.

The wages of sin is death.

This verse doesn't prove or disprove eternal torment.

Jesus Christ is the only way we can be seen as righteous, without blemish. Our sins are washed by His blood.

I love Jesus and I know He died for my sins, but I have no idea how this sentence is relevant to what I said.

Sinners in hell will never be forgiven.

Most obvious statement of the universe, also doesn't prove or disprove eternal torment.

They will receive their just retribution for as long as God lives.

By 'just retribution' you mean eternal torment?

Jesus Christ didn't die for nothing.

Of course He didn't. He died to save us. But that doesn't prove or disprove eternal torment.

I'm not a firm believer in either eternal torment or conditionalism, but I think that people often make irrelevant arguments in favor of both opinions.

 

[ssammoh]

So you've done some studying up, then? I seem to remember that you started one of these hell threads awhile back. Have you learned a lot (other than the fact that threads on hell are hell )?

I learned a whole bunch of things that affected my opinion on whether or not eternal torment is a false doctrine.

And I like threads about it. They are my favorite threads to read. One thing that would be interesting to see, is someone changing their mind on the matter. But I have a feeling I won't be seeing that for a long time.

 

[seeingeyes]

I have had debates with many people who actually state that they do not want to go to heaven under any circumstance because they literally believe God to be evil, and that they actually want to go to hell because they think it will be one big giant party. A place has to be set aside for eternal beings who will not bow their knee and confess to almighty God.

How about people who would rather be in hell themselves than sitting in bliss while their loved ones burn forever? Talked to anyone like that?

 

[seeingeyes]

I learned a whole bunch of things that affected my opinion on whether or not eternal torment is a false doctrine.

And I like threads about it. They are my favorite threads to read. One thing that would be interesting to see, is someone changing their mind on the matter. But I have a feeling I won't be seeing that for a long time.

You are wise, indeed!

It's important to remember that whatever description we have of 'hell' is also a description of our God. There's no tip-toeing around it.

So when we talk about hell, we are not dithering over some silly theological knick-knack like whether turtles have souls, we are talking about the very nature and character of our God.

Minds may be changed, but only by the Spirit.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

How about people who would rather be in hell themselves than sitting in bliss while their loved ones burn forever? Talked to anyone like that?

Yes. I have, I'm kind of in that boat myself sometimes. Someone once said I was a terrible example of Christianity on forum and that I drove people away form Christ intead of to him, and I said "If I stood in front of the Lord on Judgement day and He said to me", 'All these people are going to hell becuase of you, I would jump into hell and I wouldnt need to be pushed.

How about you?

 

[seeingeyes]

Yes. I have, I'm kind of in that boat myself sometimes. Someone once said I was a terrible example of Christianity on forum and that I drove people away form Christ intead of to him, and I said "If I stood in front of the Lord on Judgement day and He said to me", 'All these people are going to hell becuase of you, I would jump into hell and I wouldnt need to be pushed.

How about you?

Absolutely. I was one of those who "cross land and sea to make one convert, and then turn that person into twice the child of hell" that I was. But then it occurred to me that the God I was 'selling' wasn't even half as good as I was. I, by simply ignoring others out of self interest, was 'gooder' than this God that I was preaching.

Of course, when I say this 'occurred' to me, I mean that the Spirit knocked me upside the head.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

Absolutely. I was one of those who "cross land and sea to make one convert, and then turn that person into twice the child of hell" that I was. But then it occurred to me that the God I was 'selling' wasn't even half as good as I was. I, by simply ignoring others out of self interest, was 'gooder' than this God that I was preaching.

Of course, when I say this 'occurred' to me, I mean that the Spirit knocked me upside the head.

The Spirit is good like that.

 

[seeingeyes]

The Spirit is good like that.

Yep. lol

So I had some sacred cows to kill off, and that was scary. (Can we trust our Father to hold us up even if our theology is wrong?) But I had to look at these issues very honestly, without fear, because the theology I had led straight to the conclusion (among others) that Random Unbeliever X who would rather go to hell himself than watch his loved ones go to hell without him was wrongheaded and foolish even though this is exactly the attitude and action we see in Christ.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

Yep. lol

So I had some sacred cows to kill off, and that was scary. (Can we trust our Father to hold us up even if our theology is wrong?) But I had to look at these issues very honestly, without fear, because the theology I had led straight to the conclusion (among others) that Random Unbeliever X who would rather go to hell himself than watch his loved ones go to hell without him was wrongheaded and foolish even though this is exactly the attitude and action we see in Christ.

"Can we trust our Father to hold us up even if our theology is wrong?"

Of opurse. I believe there are many saved professing atheists in the world because they are possessing Christians who at one point believed the gospel and have now been deceived.

"even though this is exactly the attitude and action we see in Christ"

What do yo mean by that?

 

[seeingeyes]

"Can we trust our Father to hold us up even if our theology is wrong?"

Of opurse. I believe there are many saved professing atheists in the world because they are possessing Christians who at one point believed the gospel and have now been deceived.

There's a vast chasm between intellectually believing that and actually stepping out in faith.

"even though this is exactly the attitude and action we see in Christ"

What do yo mean by that?

We follow a God who sees that there is not even one virgin pure enough for a sacrifice, so he throws Himself into the volcano for the sake of the tribesman.

We follow the Son who prayed 'Father forgive them' regarding the people who were currently murdering him.

Who the hell does that? (pun intended)

This is what love looks like. It's backwards and upside down and it's messy and it's the most beautiful thing ever. It's the face of our God.

So when people say that they have no interest in heaven if it means abandoning those they love, it is the exact same impulse shown by our Lord on the cross. He would not abandon us though it meant his own life.

It's not foolish, it's unutterably wise. It's not wrongheaded, it's the only 'right' thing there is. And woe to those who, in the name of God, try to talk these souls out of their sacrificial love.

 

[ssammoh]

You are wise, indeed!

It's important to remember that whatever description we have of 'hell' is also a description of our God. There's no tip-toeing around it.

So when we talk about hell, we are not dithering over some silly theological knick-knack like whether turtles have souls, we are talking about the very nature and character of our God.

Minds may be changed, but only by the Spirit.

Thanks for calling me wise.

As for the thing about describing our God...exactly! I was trying to figure out why I like those threads so much. Minutes after reading your post I realized it's because the doctrine of Hell significantly alters one's opinion on God.

One's opinion on Hell can--it doesn't always, but it can--have huge effects on a person. Changing your mind from conditionalism to eternal torment can really mess with your mental health and decrease your love for God. Believing in eternal torment is very painful. When I first found out about it, I couldn't have fun anymore. My friends had a lot of fun with me and tried to cheer me up but I really couldn't stop picturing people burning in Hell all day. I still have my doubts about conditionalism.

 

[blankCrossfire]

1. Satan will be burned forever. That might be why the fire is eternal.
2. Everlasting fire can mean the effects are eternal.

If you read 1 John 3, people who rebel against God and live in sin are no different from their father, the devil. The verse you're responding to says that God will cast the condemned into hell, a place originally intended for the devil and his angels. If the devil will be punished for eternity, why do you think other people in hell won't? The bible says they will be eternally damned over and over again for their rebellion.

If your soul goes into nonexistence forever, the punishment lasts forever. It doesn't mean he destroys you over and over forever.
Just like if your mom grounds you for a week, the punishment lasts a week. It doesn't mean she grounds you over and over for a whole week.

Nonexistence? What? How can a person be punished for their sins forever and not exist forever?

There is no time limit when we deal with eternity.
Eternity is forever. Your analogy doesn't work since time is involved.
There is no end when dealing with eternity.

Jesus Christ didn't die for nothing.
He didn't sweat blood for nothing.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Do you believe that eternal life isn't really eternal either?

Why do you assume that one is and one isn't?

Do you believe that God is lying when he says the righteous will inherit eternal life while the wicked receive eternal punishment?

Even if eternal torment is a true doctrine, God being eternal doesn't prove it.

But it does.
You would have to understand just how much God hates sin though.
God does not take sin lightly. And for as long as God lives (eternal) the wicked will be rightly punished...for eternity (Matthew 25:46) (Hebrews 10:26-31).

This verse doesn't prove or disprove eternal torment.

You would have to deny the bible to deny eternal life and eternal damnation.

Why do you think you can accept one and deny the other?

By 'just retribution' you mean eternal torment?

Yes.

James 2:13
For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

I'm not a firm believer in either eternal torment or conditionalism, but I think that people often make irrelevant arguments in favor of both opinions.

One is based on scripture, the other is based on emotion.

 

[bricklayer]

Hell is not eternal. Eternal means non-temporal (eternal) and therefore non-physical and non-spatial.

Hell is quite physical, spatial and temporal.

Hell is not eternal; it is never ending.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

There's a vast chasm between intellectually believing that and actually stepping out in faith.

No there isnt. A christian places intellectual faith in facts. We agree with God, its just that simple. "What does "stepping out in faith" mean? It's waffle in my opinion.

 

[seeingeyes]

No there isnt. A christian places intellectual faith in facts. We agree with God, its just that simple. "What does "stepping out in faith" mean? It's waffle in my opinion.

Ooops, sorry. Didn't mean to hit you with the 'Christianese' without explaining myself.

How comfortable are you at examining the facts of your faith? In regard to hell you said, "we dont understand how something can exist in such a place or why a merciful God would send anyone there" and that you left off going to church for a while over the issue.

Did you ever get your answer?

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

Ooops, sorry. Didn't mean to hit you with the 'Christianese' without explaining myself.

How comfortable are you at examining the facts of your faith? In regard to hell you said, "we dont understand how something can exist in such a place or why a merciful God would send anyone there" and that you left off going to church for a while over the issue.

Did you ever get your answer?

No matter what my underatanding of it is doesnt matter because we are not to lean on our own understanding. I decided that God is good and I worked back from there. Justice and wrath is "love" too. Still, Mind = blown, will always be my state.

I was hoping to get other peoples perspectives, that's all.

 

[seeingeyes]

No matter what my underatanding of it is doesnt matter because we are not to lean on our own understanding. I decided that God is good and I worked back from there. Justice and wrath is "love" too. Still, Mind = blown, will always be my state.

I was hoping to get other peoples perspectives, that's all.

Our understanding matters in terms of our faith. Is it possible to trust a complete stranger? If someone's motivations are a mystery to us, we wouldn't hand them the keys to our car, let alone trust them with our 'immortal soul'.

In what way is justice and wrath "love"? Is it possible to follow the commands of Jesus by showing justice and wrath to our neighbors? What would that look like?