Why an eternal hell? (2)

[Nihilist420]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Why an eternal hell?"

 

[Metal Minister]

Is the lake of fire a literal physical lake of fire?

Is there any scripture that says otherwise?

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[holo]

Fred V B,

"Once again, torture in eternity is not mentioned but torment is, which was explained several times. The burning is a metaphor, there will be anguish there is anguish forever that is mentioned, what it will be will be in total fairness as Yahweh is perfectly just in his goodness, how is that saying he is evil let alone infinitely so? This is using twisted logic that does not recognize what is really said."

Not sure if I'm getting you right. Tormenting someone eternally for sins committed during a lifetime is "total fairness" how, exactly? How is it NOT unfair and evil to punish someone infinitely more than they deserve?

 

[holo]

Wow, you're splitting hairs here. Our bodies are finite. Our souls continue on after our bodies die right? So how does that make our souls finite? Those in hell are suffering the eternal punishment of death away from God, and fire. Eternal life is life with God.

May God Richly Bless you!

I'm not arguing that because our bodies will die the spirit must also die. I'm arguing that the BIBLE SAYS that the soul that sins shall DIE. And this:

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

That means that man didn't have eternal life to begin with, and that's still the case for anybody born today.

edit: fixed a serious typo in the first sentence

 

[Metal Minister]

Because the sin is, well, finite. I stole money once. I got caught and paid the price and it's over with. I'm not continually stealing money forever and ever just because I did it once, and I'm not infinitely guilty.

What happens to your "infinite" sin when you are saved?

How can Jesus have paid the price and not be in hell right now if the price is eternal pain?

Your theft was from another finite being, making it a finite punishment. God is infinite so the punishment for transgressions against Him are infinite. When Jesus died, He took those sins to the grave. He is infinite as well. He always was. He became flesh so that he could pay for those sins. Hell is only for those who reject that sacrifice.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[holo]

Is there any scripture that says otherwise?

Maybe not, but there aren't any verses that say the great prostitute in Revelation isn't a physical prostitute either

 

[Metal Minister]

I'm arguing that because our bodies will die the spirit must also die. I'm arguing that the BIBLE SAYS that the soul that sins shall DIE. And this:

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

That means that man didn't have eternal life to begin with, and that's still the case for anybody born today.

You're missing the point. That passage isn't talking about the soul. It's talking about a physical body. The flesh had become corrupted by sin, and God could not allow that flesh to live forever. Can you imagine what atrocities man could commit if the flesh was eternal? And you keep conflating physical death with what the bible teaches about hell. Eternity away from God in hell is the second death.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[Metal Minister]

Maybe not, but there aren't any verses that say the great prostitute in Revelation isn't a physical prostitute either

Actually, there are. It's symbolism for the false religion that the false prophet will install at the coming of the anti-christ. The great harlot mystery Babylon is that religion. Revelations is tough without a seriously good latin/English dictionary and a lot of patience. Lol

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[holo]

Your theft was from another finite being, making it a finite punishment. God is infinite so the punishment for transgressions against Him are infinite.

It still doesn't make sense. The punishment fits the CRIME, not the (in)finity of the victim.

By your own rationale, since you and I are also infinite beings, your sin against me would also be infinite, and you would indeed deserve eternal torment for stealing my car!

When Jesus died, He took those sins to the grave. He is infinite as well. He always was. He became flesh so that he could pay for those sins. Hell is only for those who reject that sacrifice.

But that doesn't in any way explain why/how Jesus can not be in hell as we speak.

If I read you right:
- God is infinite, therefore sin must be punished infinitely.
- Humans are also infinite, but that doesn't mean sin against us must be punished infinitely.
Why not?
- Jesus paid for our sins but is not in hell right now, because... that's where I really don't follow you anymore. What do you mean?

 

[holo]

You're missing the point. That passage isn't talking about the soul. It's talking about a physical body. The flesh had become corrupted by sin, and God could not allow that flesh to live forever. Can you imagine what atrocities man could commit if the flesh was eternal? And you keep conflating physical death with what the bible teaches about hell. Eternity away from God in hell is the second death.

May God Richly Bless you!

Maybe you're correct about the tree of life giving eternal bodily life. But surely God would rather have fallen humans on earth for eternity than in hell for eternity?

Anyway, as you say, the second DEATH. Death, as in absence of life.

 

[Metal Minister]

It still doesn't make sense. The punishment fits the CRIME, not the (in)finity of the victim.

By your own rationale, since you and I are also infinite beings, your sin against me would also be infinite, and you would indeed deserve eternal torment for stealing my car!

No, I'm not sinning against your law, nor am I sinning against your soul. I'm breaking our finite human laws, and sinning against the infinite creator and His laws. His laws are infinite, our are not.

But that doesn't in any way explain why/how Jesus can not be in hell as we speak.

If I read you right:
- God is infinite, therefore sin must be punished infinitely.
- Humans are also infinite, but that doesn't mean sin against us must be punished infinitely.
Why not?
- Jesus paid for our sins but is not in hell right now, because... that's where I really don't follow you anymore. What do you mean?

Ok, Jesus is part of the trinity of God right? Which means His sacrifice would therefore have paid an infinite price. He had to become flesh to pay that price, but He was always infinite. He took the wrath of God, and buried it in the grave for those who will follow Him.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[Metal Minister]

Maybe you're correct about the tree of life giving eternal bodily life. But surely God would rather have fallen humans on earth for eternity than in hell for eternity?

Anyway, as you say, the second DEATH. Death, as in absence of life.

Yes, an absence of life with God. Death in the spiritual sense does not equal death in the physical sense.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[FredVB]

Fred V B,

"Once again, torture in eternity is not mentioned but torment is, which was explained several times. The burning is a metaphor, there will be anguish there is anguish forever that is mentioned, what it will be will be in total fairness as Yahweh is perfectly just in his goodness, how is that saying he is evil let alone infinitely so? This is using twisted logic that does not recognize what is really said."

Not sure if I'm getting you right. Tormenting someone eternally for sins committed during a lifetime is "total fairness" how, exactly? How is it NOT unfair and evil to punish someone infinitely more than they deserve?
It still doesn't make sense. The punishment fits the CRIME, not the (in)finity of the victim.

But that doesn't in any way explain why/how Jesus can not be in hell as we speak.
- God is infinite, therefore sin must be punished infinitely.
- Humans are also infinite, but that doesn't mean sin against us must be punished infinitely.
Why not?
- Jesus paid for our sins but is not in hell right now, because... that's where I really don't follow you anymore. What do you mean?

Being in in anguish under fair judgment forever (which is the only sense that there could be agreement of a meaning of being punished infinitely) is not to say they are punished infintely more than is deserved, that is using words to argue against a position not being posted, a straw man argument.


As I have been saying, there will be torment for the unredeemed, which can be understood as extreme pain or anguish of body or mind, not the same as meaning they are being tortured, who have dismissed the grace of Yahweh God for them, through Christ. It is unending according to what is said in the Bible, even by Christ. Perfect justice with the goodness of God comes with this as fair judgment, the only kind of judgment that can come from him. Those who are saved deserved that too, Christ bore the penalty for them, indeed any could come to him on his terms and be saved, his payment was effective just because it was as God bearing a penalty a mere man could not and payment for sin was through absolute being bearing it. All sin must be payed for according to true justice. Those living and then dying without having Christ to cover them and bear it take the penalty for all their sin themselves, but with them, payment for sin is never finished, they will never be clean of the sin to come into heaven in God's presence. They will suffer their torment at the level fair for them but it goes on forever according to God's word. No one should want that. But many dismiss it and will not come to God on his terms.

 

[Blessedj01]

This is a pretty big thread...perhaps it's going to run eternally!

 

[createdtoworship]

Thrown into the lake of Fire Rev 20:10
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


a few verses later

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."


the best argument offered for these verses from an annihilationist is that they "read differently"

wow, thats an argument?

 

[dies-l]

Thrown into the lake of Fire Rev 20:10
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

a few verses later

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

the best argument offered for these verses from an annihilationist is that they "read differently"

wow, thats an argument?

One verse speaks of eternal torment. The other stops short of eternal torment. The one that speaks of eternal torment if one of only two verses on the entire Bible that mention eternal torment. Both are in contexts in which they are obviously talking about something more grevious than sin and disbelief. And then you point to another verse that supposedly is your magic bullet that condemns unbelievers to the same fate as the devil. And guess what? No mention of eternal torment.

You are grasping at straws now, saying that since one talks about eternal torment on lake of fire and the other talks about the lake of fire that the eternal torment is somehow implied. Never have I seen a clearer example of eisegesis.

And you can, with a clean conscience, accuse me of making a weak argument?!?!? Gimme a break!

 

[dies-l]

This is a pretty big thread...perhaps it's going to run eternally!

That would be eternal torment.

 

[createdtoworship]

One verse speaks of eternal torment. The other stops short of eternal torment. The one that speaks of eternal torment if one of only two verses on the entire Bible that mention eternal torment. Both are in contexts in which they are obviously talking about something more grevious than sin and disbelief. And then you point to another verse that supposedly is your magic bullet that condemns unbelievers to the same fate as the devil. And guess what? No mention of eternal torment.

You are grasping at straws now, saying that since one talks about eternal torment on lake of fire and the other talks about the lake of fire that the eternal torment is somehow implied. Never have I seen a clearer example of eisegesis.

And you can, with a clean conscience, accuse me of making a weak argument?!?!? Gimme a break!

so you admit there is a verse for eternal torment, thats a start.

secondly, the verses in revelation are in close proximity to one another suggesting the same context. So taking light of these two points, I would say that this argument is not in your favor.

 

[Metal Minister]

One verse speaks of eternal torment. The other stops short of eternal torment. The one that speaks of eternal torment if one of only two verses on the entire Bible that mention eternal torment. !

That is because the over-arching theme of the bible is faith, grace, hope and love. God is looking for us to come to salvation, not hell, therefore He mentions it only briefly.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[dies-l]

so you admit there is a verse for eternal torment, thats a start.

I have been saying that for at least the last 50 pages of this thread. The implication that you are making here is just plain dishonest.

secondly, the verses in revelation are in close proximity to one another suggesting the same context. So taking light of these two points, I would say that this argument is not in your favor.

Once again, consider the following example: "If you kill someone, you will go to prison, where you will stay until you die" followed a few sentences later by "If you break into someone's home and steal their belongings, you will go to prison." By your reasoning, the above statements would mean that the penalty for burglary is the same as the penalty for murder: life in prison. But, that is not a reasonable inference from the above sentences. In fact, the difference between those two sentences would suggest that the most reasonable inference is that there is distinction between the penalty for murder and the penalty for burglary.

Now, lets' turn to Revelation 20:

10 And the devil, who deceived them,(AE) was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur,(AF) where the beast(AG) and the false prophet(AH) had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.(AI)

So, the Bible says that the punishment set aside for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet is (a) to be thrown into the lake of burning sulfur and (b) to be tormented day and night forever and ever.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life(AX) was thrown into the lake of fire.


And, the punishment set aside for those who names are not found written in the book of life is being thrown into the lake of fire.

This is not just a matter of the two passages "read differently." This is a material difference that shows that the two passages point to two different types of punishments. Their proximity, combined with their material differences, emphasizes that fact, and in no way diminishes it.

It would be a very bizarre rule of textual interpretation to say that to two passages, written in very similar language and in close proximity to each, but with a pronounced a very material omission in the second of the two passages, must mean exactly the same thing the material omission notwithstanding. When two passages read very similarly, but where one of the passages is different in some material way, the proper rule of textual interpretation would lead a reasonable person to believe that the omission was intentional and points to a material difference in meaning.