Why Abortion Should Be Allowed in the Early Stages

[Semper-Fi]

In those days children were seen as an asset. They were often times helpers on the farm, etc. Also, if it were his first and only son, a man would have no one to pass on his inheritance.

That does not answer the question.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Jacob moved his family to Egypt. The names of those who went are recorded in Genesis 46.

The Bible says that the sons and daughters (plural) who descended from Jacob’s first wife Leah, and who made it to Egypt, numbered 33 (Genesis 46:15).

15These be the sons of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob in Paddan–aram, with his daughter Dinah: all the souls of his sons and his daughters were thirty and three.


Yet there are only 32 names given for those who went
and only one of them is a daughter. Why the discrepancy?

 

[GenemZ]

Ah, so you think the biological life in a human womb is not really human because you don't think it has a soul in its early stages. And so I suppose you think until the baby is out of the womb and breathing it cannot be identified as human? And according to your perception, the breath of life is this independent first breath the baby breathes?

God's breath of life is not air to breath. Its the infusion of a human soul into the body. As shown already in several posts.... the Greek and Hebrew consistently speaks of life beginning "from the womb." Your argument is not with me. Some dishonest translators will say "in the womb." But, the Bible in the Hebrew and Greek say no such thing.

I once had a discussion with an Israeli young lady. We were discussing Hebrew. I asked her what "min betin" means. She told me today it would mean out from the belly. After wards, she gave a big "hmmmmmmm" as she pondered it. She spoke Hebrew. She never had that pointed out to here before.

Trouble is. We too in the churches, often get fake news taught superficially. Taught what appeals to our natural logic and reason. That is so Satan can pit one side against another leading to an unresolvable battle. No resolve because God will only honor those who have His Word understood.

Satan keeps believers unbalanced that way. Only finding and holding an accurate understanding could put an end to game. But, only for the one holding it, if the numbers are too low to fight back, because of having too many believers playing into the hands of erroneous understanding. Satan plays with such confusion. False teachings which causes emotions to run high with fights and even revolution when it gets too far.

Only the Truth will keep us free. Not good intentions. The other side may be wrong. But, having our side wrong as well, does not ultimately please the Lord.

 

[GenemZ]

That does not answer the question.

Financial loss. Children when old enough became a part of the family work force as a family unit. The judges would determine the fine.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Financial loss. Children when old enough became a part of the family work force as a family unit. The judges would determine the fine.

But if any harm follows, then you shall give "life for life”

 

[SPF]

God's breath of life is not air to breath. Its the infusion of a human soul into the body. As shown already in several posts.... the Greek and Hebrew consistently speaks of life beginning "from the womb." Your argument is not with me. Some dishonest translators will say "in the womb." But, the Bible in the Hebrew and Greek say no such thing.

I once had a discussion with an Israeli young lady. We were discussing Hebrew. I asked her what "min betin" means. She told me today it would mean out from the belly. After wards, she gave a big "hmmmmmmm" as she pondered it. She spoke Hebrew. She never had that pointed out to here before.

Trouble is. We too in the churches, often get fake news taught superficially. Taught what appeals to our natural logic and reason. That is so Satan can pit one side against another leading to an unresolvable battle. No resolve because God will only honor those who have His Word understood.

Satan keeps believers unbalanced that way. Only finding and holding an accurate understanding could put an end to game. But, only for the one holding it, if the numbers are too low to fight back, because of having too many believers playing into the hands of erroneous understanding. Satan plays with such confusion. False teachings which causes emotions to run high with fights and even revolution when it gets too far.

Only the Truth will keep us free. Not good intentions. The other side may be wrong. But, having our side wrong as well, does not ultimately please the Lord.

Are you then of the opinion that for people who believe as you do that an abortion at any stage before birth would be permissible?

 

[GenemZ]

But if any harm follows, then you shall give "life for life”

Does it say its always the case? Come on. Post the passage and its context for all to see, please. Then we will discuss what's there. Not what you think is there.

If a woman was only one/ two months pregnant? The fruit of the womb would surely be dead with no direct contact from the offender outside of the womb. Its would be unfair to declare that he killed the child that could have never survived.. Nor, could anyone even know she was really pregnant at such an early pregnancy while fighting. She may have not even appeared to be pregnant, but she was.

Remember... induced labor from such a fight will usually produce birth some time afterwards. Most likely, a good time after the fight ended. Its the mother who could receive physical harm by being entered into the fight.


And if men struggle/fight . . .
and strike/hurt a pregnant woman . . .
so that she has a miscarriage . . .
and yet there is no further injury . . .
he {the offender} will definitely be fined,
according as the woman's husband may demand of him . . .
and he shall pay as the judges decides
{the husband states his damages and the judges decide a fair
amount- financial damages only - no criminal charges}.

{Capital Punishment though if the Mother Dies}

 

[GenemZ]

Are you then of the opinion that for people who believe as you do that an abortion at any stage before birth would be permissible?

No. I hate the thought of abortion. But, there have been cases where an abortion would save the life of a mother. I know a Catholic when explaining to her when God imputes the soul,,, she told me a Catholic hospital where she lives would always save the child at the expense of the mother if they could save either one.

Knowing the truth how God imputes life would allow the husband to demand to save the life of his wife. The RCC believes the human being exists at conception.

There is more than one reason for abortions. I thought what she told me was cruel and bizarre, but she said that is what that hospital believed. This was back in the 80's.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Does it say its always the case? Come on. Post the passage and its context for all to see, please. Then we will discuss what's there. Not what you think is there.

“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely[causes a miscarriage], yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life” (Exodus 21:22-23; New King James Version).

 

[topher694]

Viability means that the fetus if born prematurely up to a certain point where God would impute a human soul. If a one month fetus miscarries or is aborted? No way would God have given that a human soul. That is where the viability matter comes in. Viability may be described the point of development where once out side the womb the child can live.

And what about the baby that is born right on the edge, survives for 2 weeks, but ultimately dies because it just couldn't make it? Did it have a spirit (not soul)? Does God wait until he knows the baby will make it (read: viable) before making it "a living soul"? You can play this game any which way, but in the end it is all one big, stupid game that in no way lines up with God's character or nature.

 

[hedrick]

“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely[causes a miscarriage], yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life” (Exodus 21:22-23; New King James Version).

The obvious meaning of this is that the "any harm" refers to somethng other than the miscarriage, i.e. harm to the woman. However the phrase prematurely (causes a miscarriage) is disputed. I agree that miscarriage is meant, but not everyone does.

 

[hedrick]

And what about the baby that is born right on the edge, survives for 2 weeks, but ultimately dies because it just couldn't make it? Did it have a spirit (not soul)? Does God wait until he knows the baby will make it (read: viable) before making it "a living soul"? You can play this game any which way, but in the end it is all one big, stupid game that in no way lines up with God's character or nature.

But if he gives every embryo a soul at conception, we have a huge number of embryonic souls due to spontaneous miscarriage. Reasonable calculation suggests something like 80% of heaven is made up of these (assuming, as conservatives typically do, that only about 10% of adults are saved). This isn't impossible, but seems unlikely.

 

[GenemZ]

two men fighting and causes a women's womb

“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely[causes a miscarriage], yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life” (Exodus 21:22-23; New King James Version).

And if men struggle/fight . . .
and strike/hurt a pregnant woman . . .
so that she has a miscarriage . . .
and yet there is no further injury . . .
he {the offender} will definitely be fined,
according as the woman's husband may demand of him . . .
and he shall pay as the judges decides
(the husband states his damages and the judges decide a fair
amount- financial damages only - no criminal charges).

(Capital Punishment though if the Mother Dies)

 

[Semper-Fi]

(Capital Punishment though if the Mother Dies)

There was already a law on the books,
thou shalt not kill. This verse is talking about a
fetus that was discharged from the womb.


notice Ecclesiastes 11:5: “As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything” (Revised Standard Version).

The spirit in man is given in [the womb], not at the baby's first breath.

 

[GenemZ]

And what about the baby that is born right on the edge, survives for 2 weeks, but ultimately dies because it just couldn't make it? Did it have a spirit (not soul)? Does God wait until he knows the baby will make it (read: viable) before making it "a living soul"? You can play this game any which way, but in the end it is all one big, stupid game that in no way lines up with God's character or nature.

Too much confusion. No normal human being has a human spirit at birth. He is born body and soul only. That is why Jesus said that man needs to be born "again." The second birth the Spirit begets 'spirit.'

Confusion abounds because many believe being born again means receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation only began once the church age began. Because Jesus had to be first glorified before the Spirit could be given!

"On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said
in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water
will flow from within them.”By this he meant the Spirit, whom
those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that
time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet
been glorified." Jn 7:37-39​

Jesus was telling Nicodemus that the problems some of the Pharisees were having concerning who He was , was because they needed to become first regenerated. They needed to become 'born again.' Any Jew who believed in the Lord God of Israel were in that day "born again." They did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, but did receive a human spirit making them able to grasp truth. When filled with the Spirit, we not only grasp truth. The truth can also become our very life when filled with the Spirit. The OT Jews could only acknowledge and know Truth. Spirit filled church age believer can go beyond what the OT Jews had. Now we came "become" the Truth is our very being. That is why Paul said that many in his congregations were being transformed into the Image of the Lord. OT believers could only know about the Lord. Big difference!

 

[topher694]

But if he gives every embryo a soul at conception, we have a huge number of embryonic souls due to spontaneous miscarriage. Reasonable calculation suggests something like 80% of heaven is made up of these (assuming, as conservatives typically do, that only about 10% of adults are saved). This isn't impossible, but seems unlikely.

See, more thought games with real lives. Not how God works.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Too much confusion. No normal human being has a human spirit at birth. He is born body and soul only. That is why Jesus said that man needs to be born "again." The second birth the Spirit begets 'spirit.'

Talk about confusion, every human has a 'spirit in man'
before birth, as the bible calls it.

The spirit in man is what makes us above animals.

also separate, Gods Spirit can be added or given at his will,
then we Christians become [begotten] now .

The second birth we will be spirit beings,
at Christs return, when our change comes.

 

[GenemZ]

There was already a law on the books,
thou shalt not kill. This verse is talking about a
fetus that was discharged from the womb.

They had no problem since knowing the meaning of the Hebrew that a soul is given at birth "from outside the womb. Not before. You need to keep that in mind, please.

If God chose not to give a soul and the fetus came out not alive? Would have been stillborn? They could not know with certainty if it would have been still born. Only if the child survived birth, died, and showed signs of trauma from the fight, could it be considered murder.

And, if the woman was only a month or two pregnant? Many could have known she was pregnant. Especially, if she jumped into the fight to protect her husband. That is why it was written in the Law a woman can not grab the private parts of a man her husband was fighting.,.

"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes
to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out
and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand.
Show her no pity." Deut 25:11-12
​

The woman could have been charged in such a fight as well! There is more than meets the eye here. That is why the judges were needed to sort things out afterwards.

notice Ecclesiastes 11:5: “As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything” (Revised Standard Version).

The spirit in man is given in [the womb], not at the baby's first breath.

Hold on a second. That is simply saying that with their limited scientific knowledge of how things work, they did not know how the fetus became animated inside the mother. Also. Very important! It spoke specifically of the life spirit coming to the *bones.* Is that where your human spirit resides"? And, not in your soul?

The word "spirit' back then, like today - was used in various ways. When saying a girl on a team played with great spirit? That means she is born again? Or, if someone is mean spirited? That they are possessed?

Please ... Don't over simplify to try to find instant satisfaction. Too many Christians abuse the Bible in that fashion, and it makes Christians who do so look foolish. Its a bad witness to the unbeliever with common sense.

 

[hedrick]

See, more thought games with real lives. Not how God works.

You do know that this is a non sequitur, right?

 

[GenemZ]

Talk about confusion, every human has a 'spirit in man'
before birth, as the bible calls it.

The spirit in man is what makes us above animals.

also separate, Gods Spirit can be added or given at his will,
then we Christians become [begotten] now .

The second birth we will be spirit beings,
at Christs return, when our change comes.

Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward
and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?" Ecc 3:21

Animals are spiritual beings too? Is that why evil men are referred to as mere animals? Or, the Anti-Christ the "Beast?" We got to be careful in determining how a word was being used.

Solomon was being philosophical as he was many times throughout Ecclesiastes. The word translated 'spirit' referred to he 'life breath' of the creature. Not a human spirit that must be begotten by the Holy Spirit when one is born again.


That passage only speaks in terms of how they thought. Its speaks of the life-breath of both man and animals.