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Featured Why Abortion Should Be Allowed in the Early Stages

Discussion in 'Debates on Abortion' started by JerseyChristianSuperstar, May 25, 2019.

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  1. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    It says that...but it also says that God formed in him the womb, so the fetus is not just a mass of cells or an organ of the mother, etc. And it also says that while he was not yet delivered/born, God consecrated him--again, him, as opposed to something not a human.
     
  2. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Yet? Where is the soul? Are you saying the parents create the soul? Or, God?

    The human body is the physical biological "vehicle" for the immaterial soul to navigate through our material world.

    If you were placed in a sporty BMW to drive? Your ability to drive would be enhanced. Yet? You would be the same person who may drive a Chevy Cruze.

    The genius formation of a body is God simply placing a soul inside a "vehicle" which enables that soul the power to do more. The soul adapts to the body God places it in. That is why when we all are given our resurrection bodies? Even those who now appear weak and slow amongst us? Are all going to make Einstein appear to be quite simple minded.
     
  3. dstamps

    dstamps New Member Supporter

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    The Bible is unified Scripture toward a single Purpose. Therefore, giving one verse a purpose that is contradicted by another is a sign of incorrect interpretation. Instead an interpretation that unifies the Scripture is necessary. This will result in an interpretation that applies primarily to the Spiritual State of Man.

    I believe the following verses contradict your interpretation and given purpose of Genesis 2:7. Luke 1:26-42 has an unborn 6 month old baby recognize the recently conceived baby Jesus. This is very early in pregnancy that Scripture tells us a recently conceived baby is a living Soul recognized by the Holy Spirit in an unborn 6 months old baby.

    Abortion is not the best way to prevent unwanted children. The best way is chastity before marriage. We hear little about this because the self-serving nature of Man wants immorality without consequences.
     
  4. Servant of Yeshua

    Servant of Yeshua Member

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    Colossians 3:17 "And whatever you do,in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus,giving thanks to God the Father through Him." Abortion cannot ever be done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Where there is life, there is hope. Abortion hurts the woman spiritually, emotionally and physically. There is no way anyone can know how killing a part of oneself will change a woman spiritually, emotionally or physically. Our laws are to protect. Half of the country ( and most of our world) once thought it was one's legal right to own slaves. There was such horrible fighting and death as people disagreed. Many tried to use the bible to justify it and say that it was ok. Now we can agree that it was an abomination to the Lord. It was disgusting and horrendous offense against God in every way and to all humanity and our country and world is still damaged by this. Abortion is killing our country and eventually God will say enough, as He did with ancient Israel. Do a search of Jonathan Cahn New York Gruesome Law of Baal. It is only 12 minutes. And remember Colossians 3:17. We have the responsibility to shine Jesus to the world. If we are like chameleons just trying to blend into a society that has mostly rejected God, reflecting the thoughts of the day, then we will also be like those during the times of slavery that were for slavery, or could care less and just let everyone decide for themselves. People are not property.
     
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    :sigh: There is nothing in that passage which separates the soul of the new human from the body.
     
  6. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi Well-Known Member

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    see Post #169

    The word “soul” is translated from Hebrew,
    the word nephesh, which means a living creature,
    man and animals are called living creatures "soul"

    Now if you refer to [the spirit in man] - first this is
    not Gods holy spirit it's mans, every human has this.

    This God gives to the new creation in the womb, after
    the seed of man and woman conceive, but before birth.

    1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth
    the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    - science calls it your conscience, they can't see,
    or feel, or touch it, calling it human nature.

    8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of
    the Almighty giveth them understanding.

    - this it what imparts thought, it separates mans brain and thoughts from animals instincts, but science cant understand it.

    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
    and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    -you could say a recording of your life returns to God,
    but without you're body it knows nothing and it's not immortal or alive by itself - having no body means it has no ears or mouth or eyes to see, or physical brain.
    -

    God can also impart the power of the Holy Spirit to anyone. They too will become a new creation, [begotten] now heir, and born into the kingdom
    when Christ returns.
     
  7. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Augustine proposed ensoulment, but that certainly was not the opinion of the early church. His contemporary St Basil vehemently opposed ensoulment and taught that it was murder at all stages of a pregnancy from the moment of conception. Augustine also considered it to be wrong to abort before the mother felt the movement of the child. He was proposing a different form of punishment between the two. Again, even that distinction was considered to be wrong. St Justin Martyr, for example, from the second century taught the teaching of the church from the apostolic times. There is a vast amount of historical evidence to display the opinion of the early Church - considering abortion at all stages to be murder.

    To use a few select quotes from church fathers, while ignoring the vast amount of writings calling abortion murder from conception is a prime example of cherry picking quotes from Church history.
     
  8. JerseyChristianSuperstar

    JerseyChristianSuperstar Member

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    Six months is at the end of the second trimester and into the third trimester, at which point the majority of pro-choice people, myself included, are opposed to abortion as murder, because the unborn child is clearly viable at that point.
     
  9. ChicanaRose

    ChicanaRose Well-Known Member

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    So you assert hermeneutical autonomy despite what Calvin himself taught?

    "For the fetus, though enclosed in the womb of its mother, is already a human being, (homo,) and it is almost a monstrous crime to rob it of the life which it has not yet begun to enjoy..."

    Exodus 21 Commentary - John Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible

    Your revelation of Genesis 2:7 is not quoted by anyone else in history. Are you not at least a bit concerned about the source of such unique and individual inspiration that even your own church has neither approved nor supported? Have you checked with your pastor yet regarding your perspective?
     
  10. messianist

    messianist Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The wage of sin is death.
     
  11. ChicanaRose

    ChicanaRose Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering myself if it is time to shake the dust off my feet metaphorically (Ref. Matt. 10:14).
     
  12. Albion

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    How do you know that to be so? Whenever any modification in abortion laws is proposed or legislation introduced to that effect at the state or federal level, the opponents instantly do everything possible in those legislatures to ridicule the idea and defeat it--even when it is abortion after the baby is delivered. And they usually have enough power to defeat it.

    Those elected officials must think they are representing someone, and they are answerable to their constitutents. So why would we think that most people who favor abortion are against second trimester abortions?
     
  13. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I’m curious as to why you even include quotes from St Augustine and Thomas Acquinas when you reject so much of the other things they taught. If the idea is to show that the early church didn’t consider it to be murder, then take a look at the other writings of the Church. The writings and teachings of the early Church will soundly refute that proposition. Otherwise, I don’t see the point of including small sections of what they wrote.
     
  14. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    That's not true. It was because of Elizabeth's great joy in the Spirit in which the fetus reflected and demonstrated its intensity by leaping. Its was a hormonal reaction in sympathy with the intensity of Elizabeth's experience. If a mother is in fear? Adrenalin is being pumped an a fetus will become agitated as well. The same fetus that after birth must first learn to fear things.

    John did not hear anything. It says it was when the sound of Mary's voice reached Elizabeth's ears that the reaction was set into motion. A fetus can not see, not hear,nor know what a person outside the womb is saying. It does not even know vocabulary yet.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  15. ChicanaRose

    ChicanaRose Well-Known Member

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    Cherry picking is the beginning of cults and heresies.

    "The imago Dei is the common element of all human beings—born and preborn...God creates an awe-inspiring and wonderful work of divine and living art—another human being who bears God’s image."

    The Four Points of Proof for Life: Biblical - Human Coalition

    So prior to 6 months, the fetus reflects an image of whom or what?
     
  16. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    You cut too short on that passage. Its context was lost.

    22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."


    That speaks of a baby being delivered prematurely and outside of the womb. It becomes a body and soul at that point. If the baby is then killed? That would be the equivalent of a post birth abortion.

    And, normally a delivery is not rapid and is a process that takes time. The baby does not simply pop out in the middle of a fight. The baby would most likely be born well after the fight is over. The issue was that the labor was induced by the blow received.

    It also speaks of the mother's health. For a baby is born without teeth. No tooth for a tooth applies.

    Yet? If the baby is killed after alive? Being outside of the womb? Then the person will be judged for murder. But if it comes out not alive? No judgement can be determined not knowing if it were stillborn.

    The Bible is not always that simple. Its why God assigned judges over the people to be guided by the Word. Its also why liberals walk over dogmatic well intentioned believers who do not know their Bible in detail and depth. Frustration. No freedom.
     
  17. ChicanaRose

    ChicanaRose Well-Known Member

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    "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--" (Ephesians 1:4-5)

    I'm sure you know these verses well as a Calvinist. But you argue that God only chooses to give souls to fetuses who make it through the first five months, who would be viable outside of the womb.

    So this is when God's sovereign choice begins? When the a person is 6 months old inside the womb?

    You not only make extra-biblical arguments but also border on extra-apostolic (contrary to the church fathers) and extra-denominational ones, with extraordinary and individualistic interpretation of Genesis 2:7.

    While you don't need to agree to everyone, it is concerning to me that you have not at least considered to look into the perspectives that others have provided.
     
  18. dstamps

    dstamps New Member Supporter

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    The point is that Jesus was conceived just a few days, at most, before Mary visited Elisabeth. That implies that life begins at conception--not birth or 6 months after conception.
     
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  19. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    Actually, given the text and context, it makes more sense that we have John, being filled with the Holy Spirit, leaping for HIS joy at the sound of Mary’s voice - because Mary was carrying Jesus. It’s a testimony to Jesus is what it is. The Spirit inside John knew Jesus was in the womb of Mary.
     
  20. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I don't agree with you.
    But since you have already said that abortion is a sin, why worry about what we call it? Why do you think it a sin if you don't believe that the embryo that is destroyed is alive?
    Sin is sin. In God's eyes the sin of murder is just as bad as the sin of manslaughter, or the sin of lying, gossiping, cheating etc. You say that abortion is sin; that is the important bit.
     
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