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Why Abortion is Immoral

redleghunter

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Thank you so much for falling back on Jeremiah. It proves your absolute ignorance of what He was trying go tell us all. If you think Jer.1:5 is proof of life before birth, how do you explain Eph. 1:4, where God is said to know us from before the universe existed (from before the foundations of the world)? At that time, no universe yet existed, much less a man, woman, egg, fertilized embryo, or fetus.

Why would He convey such a statement to us? What was His true purpose? I know you don't have the answer, but I am willing to share something with you that is definite food for thought.

Moses asked who he should say has sent him to those in the valley below. God told him to say I AM has sent him. Pretty strange name for a god, don't you think? Why would He choose that Name?

Picture a string stretched tight. Let the string represent time. Mentally segment the string as many times as you want and in every single one of those segments, just as the string is ONE THING, God is I AM all at the same time (from our perspective). He is not I WAS, or I WILL BE. He is I AM. God does not live a linear existence as man is forced to do. He is eternal not simply because He doesn't die, but because He is I AM yesterday, today, and forever, all at once.

All He was trying to convey to use in those 3 combined passages was this: the creation is subject to time, NOT the Creator.

Which lends full support to my point of Jeremiah 1:5. It reveals God's mind to us somewhat on our worth to Him. And that begins not only in the womb but in His very plan for us.

Who are we to voluntarily destroy design God knows before we do?

Now I can see you making the above claim for abortion if you were a hyper Pauline-Calvinist.

Or the flipside a form of Deistic fatalism.

Yet your explanation does not advocate early to late term abortion in the TaNaKh.
 
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redleghunter

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I don't. Worth would indicate some sort of numerical grading system. I consider humans to either be at a stage where they are people or non people (ie a corpse or not yet cognizant)



I consider the case the other person has made to see if I find merit in their position and then adjust my view of person/non person accordingly.

Egad! Based on the above YOUR moral determinations are objective morality. It's based on YOU!

Why didn't you just tell us it was your way?
 
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ChurchStumblingBlock

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I am not personally in favor of abortion. However, my being in favor or against abortion has nothing to do with the rights of every other person to make that choice for themselves. God doesn't force us to believe in Him or to serve Him, nor to observe His ways. He gives us all a choice. That is not to say He doesn't already know what choice we will make. He does. And, as such, having given us free will, He knows what reproductive decisions we will make throughout our lives. HE gives us that freedom. YOU presume to take away what HE gives? What gives YOU the right?
 
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redleghunter

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You equate the impregnating of a woman with when life begins??? LOL Wow! There is a cure for dogma, but not if you're unwilling to see and hear it.

So, when God gives us His definition of when life begins, His EXPLICIT definition, you choose to ignore Him?? Turn off your dogma switch and read, THINK, and gain understanding. Until you abandon the dogma, you'll never understand the Truth.

No I reject YOUR flawed eisegesis of Exodus 21.

I provided exegesis of the verses and refuted your claim to finding a definition of abortion or how God deems life.

Now we know from Torah life begins with fathering a child.

We also know scientifically human life begins at conception.

Once again science eventually discovering a truth of God.
 
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redleghunter

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I am not personally in favor of abortion. However, my being in favor or against abortion has nothing to do with the rights of every other person to make that choice for themselves. God doesn't force us to believe in Him or to serve Him, nor to observe His ways. He gives us all a choice. That is not to say He doesn't already know what choice we will make. He does. And, as such, having given us free will, He knows what reproductive decisions we will make throughout our lives. HE gives us that freedom. YOU presume to take away what HE gives? What gives YOU the right?

Was the above addressed to me.
 
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ChurchStumblingBlock

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No I reject YOUR flawed eisegesis of Exodus 21.

I provided exegesis of the verses and refuted your claim to finding a definition of abortion or how God deems life.

Now we know from Torah life begins with fathering a child.

We also know scientifically human life begins at conception.

Once again science eventually discovering a truth of God.

The verses you quoted prove only that children were BORN to the stated individuals. It says nothing of when life begins whatsoever. And HUMAN life is non-existent until there is a human SPIRIT in the body. Once again, dogma replaces truth at the expense of understanding on your part.

A body lies on the ground and exhibits no breathing, no heartbeat. It is still a HUMAN body, but the spirit has departed. Due to this departure, we say the body is DEAD, or NOT ALIVE, NO LONGER LIVING. It is not the absence of a heatbeat that makes this body dead, it is the absence of the spirit that makes it so. There is no difference between this and the recognition that a human spirit not yet inhabiting a human body makes it not yet alive, in the HUMAN sense of the word "life", disregarding the scientific definition since we are not trying to decide when science says life begins, but when GOD says it does. In case you don't have your hierarchy straight, God has the final say.

If, as you say, "life", HUMAN life, begins before birth, describe to us all the entirety of your pre-birth experiences, including surrounding trees, buildings, other persons present, activities in which they were engaged, and any other details you can prove. I'm sure we would all be fascinated to hear.

The Church is destroying its ability to carry out its ONLY mission -- Go ye unto all the world and preach the gospel in My Name -- by pursuing issues outside the parameters of the given mission. If it does not stop, there will never be another person who is now lost that will become His through efforts of The Church. If The Church had not abandoned its prior method, praying for lost souls, rather than attacking them, abortion would eventually become a non-issue. No one would avail themselves of its provisions if they all belonged to Him.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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A pig is not a human being made in the image of God.

Yeah I know, pigs are wonderful creatures. My son raised one last year for FFA stock show. Loyal and gentle if you raise them right. Loved that Durok pig. Alas he is stock and not a human being made in the Image of God.

We sold the good beast to a breeder in hopes he would be successful as a stud. Don't know if he is still doing that or if he ended up a Sunday dinner.

But ol Hamlot is a pig and not a human being.

I agree one hundred percent. So let us figure out wherein lies the difference.
 
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redleghunter

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The verses you quoted prove only that children were BORN to the stated individuals. It says nothing of when life begins whatsoever. And HUMAN life is non-existent until there is a human SPIRIT in the body. Once again, dogma replaces truth at the expense of understanding on your part.

A body lies on the ground and exhibits no breathing, no heartbeat. It is still a HUMAN body, but the spirit has departed. Due to this departure, we say the body is DEAD, or NOT ALIVE, NO LONGER LIVING. It is not the absence of a heatbeat that makes this body dead, it is the absence of the spirit that makes it so. There is no difference between this and the recognition that a human spirit not yet inhabiting a human body makes it not yet alive, in the HUMAN sense of the word "life", disregarding the scientific definition since we are not trying to decide when science says life begins, but when GOD says it does. In case you don't have your hierarchy straight, God has the final say.

If, as you say, "life", HUMAN life, begins before birth, describe to us all the entirety of your pre-birth experiences, including surrounding trees, buildings, other persons present, activities in which they were engaged, and any other details you can prove. I'm sure we would all be fascinated to hear.

The Church is destroying its ability to carry out its ONLY mission -- Go ye unto all the world and preach the gospel in My Name -- by pursuing issues outside the parameters of the given mission. If it does not stop, there will never be another person who is now lost that will become His through efforts of The Church. If The Church had not abandoned its prior method, praying for lost souls, rather than attacking them, abortion would eventually become a non-issue. No one would avail themselves of its provisions if they all belonged to Him.

Yet the goal posts shift sir. You stated the Exodus 21 passage shows us what God thinks of preborn Life but now you said such cannot be determined from the passage.

In another post you asserted the same passage as God speaking on abortion.

You were speaking from a tone of authority as if your view was the infallible answer.

On both accounts I showed the error of your assertions. The passage makes no mention of abortion, miscarriage or still birth. So we are left with the child either survives the premature birth or not. Survive no further mischief, punishment in like for further mischief. I supported my claim using the lexicon of Hebrew. I also showed other chapters where still born, miscarriage are indicted and a different word than in Exodus 21.

Your response each time was to respond with your own eisegesis once again from a tone of ex cathedra.

Now you are taking the position we are not made in the image of God until we take our first breath or at some arbitrary time of ensoulment.

Yet you cannot infallibly point to the said time of ensoulment.

Which morally speaking you are indicating we really don't know. If that is the case, that would be the first humble admission on this thread and lead us all to take the position of do no harm to human life from conception. Which I might add the ancient churches uphold and in which I join them.
 
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redleghunter

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I agree one hundred percent. So let us figure out wherein lies the difference.

Your profile indicates Baptist. Are you asking as a Christian who knows there are moral absolutes or are you asking for purely science? Or both?

Let me know and we can discuss. If you believe such a discussion would derail the OP let me know and I will start a thread in a Christian forum.
 
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Belk

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How do you know? In answer to your question--as far as I am trying to remember it--about how one can know that there is objective morality... I think one knows through the intuitive-rational light of human personhood. For example, I can know intuitively that women have dignity--that is is very good that they are--and that nobody should ever rape or kill them.

Show me the quanta of morality. Distill out an ounce of kindness. I know because it is something that is not a physical reality to be measured. It is wholly a product of the human mind.
 
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Belk

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Egad! Based on the above YOUR moral determinations are objective morality. It's based on YOU!

Why didn't you just tell us it was your way?


Don't be silly. It is completely subjective. especially if it is based on me.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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A body lies on the ground and exhibits no breathing, no heartbeat. It is still a HUMAN body, but the spirit has departed. Due to this departure, we say the body is DEAD, or NOT ALIVE, NO LONGER LIVING. It is not the absence of a heatbeat that makes this body dead, it is the absence of the spirit that makes it so.
If, as you say, "life", HUMAN life, begins before birth, describe to us all the entirety of your pre-birth experiences,

I am waiting for your response to http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-abortion-is-immoral.7923648/page-34#post-69059992
 
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patricius79

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I am not personally in favor of abortion. However, my being in favor or against abortion has nothing to do with the rights of every other person to make that choice for themselves. God doesn't force us to believe in Him or to serve Him, nor to observe His ways. He gives us all a choice. That is not to say He doesn't already know what choice we will make. He does. And, as such, having given us free will, He knows what reproductive decisions we will make throughout our lives. HE gives us that freedom. YOU presume to take away what HE gives? What gives YOU the right?

Having free will doesn't mean we have the right to abort, lie, rape, steal, etc. God wants us to follow his laws of love so that we can be truly free.
 
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patricius79

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Show me the quanta of morality. Distill out an ounce of kindness. I know because it is something that is not a physical reality to be measured. It is wholly a product of the human mind.

I think that your belief that nothing is objectively wrong is connected with your assumption that something has to be measurable and physical to be real. But your assumption cannot be measured. Nor is it physical. It is a metaphysical doctrine involving the belief that even rape and abortion are not objectively evil.
 
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Belk

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I think that your belief that nothing is objectively wrong is connected with your assumption that something has to be measurable and physical to be real. But your assumption cannot be measured. Nor is it physical. It is a metaphysical doctrine involving the belief that even rape and abortion are not objectively evil.

I see. Then explain to me the process by which you can determine objective morality.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Your profile indicates Baptist. Are you asking as a Christian who knows there are moral absolutes or are you asking for purely science? Or both?

Let me know and we can discuss. If you believe such a discussion would derail the OP let me know and I will start a thread in a Christian forum.

I am a Christian and of course God sets our moral compass. I also believe that in the sermon on the mount Jesus revealed to us that God's morality is very much higher than ours and we are still playing catch up on what morality truly is. Now having said that, pigs, as intelligent as they are, never rise to the level of personhood. So . . . what do they lack?

a) They lack language.
b) They lack moral responsibility
c) They cannot contemplate eternity

But . . . is this list definitive?
 
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redleghunter

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I am a Christian and of course God sets our moral compass. I also believe that in the sermon on the mount Jesus revealed to us that God's morality is very much higher than ours and we are still playing catch up on what morality truly is. Now having said that, pigs, as intelligent as they are, never rise to the level of personhood. So . . . what do they lack?

a) They lack language.
b) They lack moral responsibility
c) They cannot contemplate eternity

But . . . is this list definitive?

They also lack humanity.
 
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Flashlight

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What we must remember is that God aborts babies quite regularly and God is perfect. Calling abortion wrong is calling God a sinner. We are called to be holy because He is holy so we should be asking what percentage of pregnancies should be aborted to achieve the holiness that God requires. Being against abortion is completely incompatible with being a Christian.
 
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