Why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will.

[Gukkor]

Ah, so morality is circumstantial, purely subjective. On this we agree.

Not quite in the same sense that most people think of when they hear such a statement. Most people, when they say that morality is subjective or relative, think that that means that it is insubstantial, that morality is just something humans make up in their heads, and that there is thus no final authority on morality. I don't think this way at all. I think that morality is real and that God is the final authority on what is right and what is wrong. HOWEVER, I also think that God is wise enough to know that what is best for one person isn't necessarily what is best for another. Thus, the "rules," such as they are, may differ from individual to individual on some issues.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[MrdeRastignac]

Ok. So are you saying that God is not omniscient?

No, I'm saying He possibly limited His omniscient nature Himself.

All Christians believe God is Almighty, although very few Christians would see God as a being who would do 'evil' things (or what we perceive to be evil). Even from a Biblical point of view one could conclude that God's Almightiness is subject to Him being Love and Justice as well. So God's Almighty nature cannot contradict God's Love nature or God's justice, because otherwise He wouldn't be the same God anymore.

So now we're talking about how God is omniscient; however in the same way as for the Almighty attribute, His omniscient nature (actually part of the Almighty attribute) cannot be contradictory to for example His other attributes, being in this case His free will.
Having given this attribute to angels and men one could state (like I did in my previous post) that in essence that means God limits His omniscient nature to comply with His and men's free will. This could explain God creating His Creation, Satan's fall, and Him not immediately destroying Satan after His fall as otherwise He would have foreseen this and maybe altered His creation. Though like I said He didn't want to be a "Master of Puppets pulling stings".

In this light one could also read the Revelation and one of the many other prophecies of the Apocalyps in the Bible; as God will wait with His ultimate Justice untill that very day, having given the opportunity to mankind to be saved by His perfect Love (Jesus Christ) and will finally use His Almighty power to bring about this Justice...

Whether or not you conclude He isn't truly omniscient or Almighty is only a matter of definition here as He is still the ultimate being and all begins and ends through Him.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Not quite in the same sense that most people think of when they hear such a statement. Most people, when they say that morality is subjective or relative, think that that means that it is insubstantial, that morality is just something humans make up in their heads, and that there is thus no final authority on morality. I don't think this way at all. I think that morality is real and that God is the final authority on what is right and what is wrong. HOWEVER, I also think that God is wise enough to know that what is best for one person isn't necessarily what is best for another. Thus, the "rules," such as they are, may differ from individual to individual on some issues.

Hope that makes sense.

It does indeed. And this form of Cosmic Justice is the most just I can think of. Hurrah!

 

[Digit]

Suppose I, an entity allegedly with free will, and God*, an entity allegedly omniscient, are in a room with two boxes, A and B. God asks me to pick one of the boxes.

God knows I will pick box A (in this scenario, at least). I don't know God knows this, nor have I made my decision (such that it may be).

• Can I pick box B?
  • If so, then God is not omniscient.
  • If not, then I do not have free will.

This is why a true omniscient being cannot coexist with an entity with true free will.

*The word is only a placeholder for 'the omniscient'. Don't read too much theology from this

That makes no sense, whatsoever.

The fact that you have a choice is what free will is. The fact that God knows what your choice will be makes Him omniscient. The two are not mutually exclusive. You still have a choice and it doesn't matter what your decision will be, God will always know.

*headdesk*
Digit

 

[Wiccan_Child]

That makes no sense, whatsoever.

My apologies.

The fact that you have a choice is what free will is. The fact that God knows what your choice will be makes Him omniscient. The two are not mutually exclusive. You still have a choice and it doesn't matter what your decision will be, God will always know.

Then how can there be a choice? If God knows exactly what I which box I will pick, how is there any possibility of me picking the other box?

 

[Digit]

My apologies.


Then how can there be a choice? If God knows exactly what I which box I will pick, how is there any possibility of me picking the other box?

Why do you confuse choice with knowledge?

Just because your Mum knows that you will react badly when you find out that she has taken your PC away as a punishment, it doesn't mean you have no choice in how you will react.

Digit

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Why do you confuse choice with knowledge?

Just because your Mum knows that you will react badly when you find out that she has taken your PC away as a punishment, it doesn't mean you have no choice in how you will react.

Digit

My mum predicts that I will react badly. It may just happen that I have a brain aneurism and react gleefully.
She does not know anything beyond her own existance, the existance of the reality she exists in, and the existance of her sensory input. All other things are based on fundamental assumptions (for example, that the sensory input correlates to the reality.
But she does not know that there is such a correlation).

 

[Digit]

My mum predicts that I will react badly. It may just happen that I have a brain aneurism and react gleefully.
She does not know anything beyond her own existance, the existance of the reality she exists in, and the existance of her sensory input. All other things are based on fundamental assumptions (for example, that the sensory input correlates to the reality.
But she does not know that there is such a correlation).

Ok, she predicts it.

God however knows. That knowledge and your choice are not mutually exclusive. I don't see why you would think they were. We are given free will to choose, and nothing in this world hinders our choice except us and our makeup. Without having to rewrite another post I made, if you want to know how I view time, God and our free will have a gander here. It's long though, just FYI. It's not really on topic of your question, yet I reconcile an all powerful God with our free will as explained there. Maybe it helps.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[elcapitan]

Ok, she predicts it.

God however knows. That knowledge and your choice are not mutually exclusive. I don't see why you would think they were. We are given free will to choose, and nothing in this world hinders our choice except us and our makeup. Without having to rewrite another post I made, if you want to know how I view time, God and our free will have a gander here. It's long though, just FYI. It's not really on topic of your question, yet I reconcile an all powerful God with our free will as explained there. Maybe it helps.

Cheers,
Digit

That link did not solve the problem at hand.

Not all of us, but lets say you and I for sure. So as we live, God sees and knows how we live and what me getting up and being late for work on Monday morning will bring. Yet maybe if God had decided to intervene and wake me instead, he would have seen that I would have been hit by a car and killed whilst walking to work, because I had plenty of time to get there and wasn't concentrating when crossing the road.

There are two options:
1.You wake up early, and die on the way to work.
2. You sleep in, and arrive late to work.

If it's up to God to choose one or the other, then He cannot be omniscient. If He is omniscient, He would already know which one happens, and so could not choose the other one.

Also note that you yourself do not have free will in this episode. You cannot choose when you wake up. You can't choose to skip work on Monday. Worst of all, you cannot choose to concentrate when crossing the road, thus saving your own life even if God let you wake up early.

 

[chris777]

Is their any way to answer your predesigned justification for your arguement and not justify your arguement?

thats the problem with these cutesy so called academic scenarios, they are inherently designed to entrap the one answering the question into giving the one posing the question the answer that their non omniscient minds can fathom.

if the only answer that can be given are predetermined by you, then the one who replies to your scenario is denied free will, because the replies you designed, and provided will only fit in your carefully arranged scenario,

I find it puzzling someone that is such a fan of science would come up with such a decidedly slanted, and preconcieved "theory"

 

[Digit]

That link did not solve the problem at hand.

There are two options:
1.You wake up early, and die on the way to work.
2. You sleep in, and arrive late to work.

If it's up to God to choose one or the other, then He cannot be omniscient. If He is omniscient, He would already know which one happens, and so could not choose the other one.

You have omitted that I don't think God operates in time as we do. I find backing for this in scripture and it happens to support my position of how God operates in our lives quite well.

Also note that you yourself do not have free will in this episode.

Again, you confuse free will with knowledge. In hindsight in a theoretical timeline we can look back and clearly see choice layed out before us, the fact that I chose one or another does not eliminate my free will. The fact that we have hindsight in this instance and know what I chose, does not eliminate my free will. My choice was no more predetermined than anything else in that scenario, we simply have knowledge of what it is that I chose and you are taking that knowledge to mean I had no choice.

You cannot choose when you wake up.

I know precious few people that can choose when to wake up.

You can't choose to skip work on Monday.

I could, but I did not. If I had, then God perhaps nothing would have happened.

Worst of all, you cannot choose to concentrate when crossing the road, thus saving your own life even if God let you wake up early.

Well, choosing when to concentrate or not is largely wishful thinking, as anyone knows who has been dead tired and is in zombie mode in the morning. I probably could have chosen to concentrate more, the choice is still there, yet due to sleep deprivation, bright sunshine and the prospect of heading to a dreary days work (lets say) I did not, I chose to stumble on my way to work as it was less effort.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[elcapitan]

No, I'm saying He possibly limited His omniscient nature Himself.

So...in other words, He is not omniscient. Limited omniscience is not omniscience, because it is unlimited by definition.

All Christians believe God is Almighty, although very few Christians would see God as a being who would do 'evil' things (or what we perceive to be evil). Even from a Biblical point of view one could conclude that God's Almightiness is subject to Him being Love and Justice as well. So God's Almighty nature cannot contradict God's Love nature or God's justice, because otherwise He wouldn't be the same God anymore.

So now we're talking about how God is omniscient; however in the same way as for the Almighty attribute, His omniscient nature (actually part of the Almighty attribute) cannot be contradictory to for example His other attributes, being in this case His free will.
Having given this attribute to angels and men one could state (like I did in my previous post) that in essence that means God limits His omniscient nature to comply with His and men's free will. This could explain God creating His Creation, Satan's fall, and Him not immediately destroying Satan after His fall as otherwise He would have foreseen this and maybe altered His creation. Though like I said He didn't want to be a "Master of Puppets pulling stings".

That is to say that one of God's "natures" contradicts one of his other "natures.". So God, by nature, condradicts Himself? The alternative is that omniscence is not part of His nature (because as stated earlier, limited omniscience is not omniscience).

In this light one could also read the Revelation and one of the many other prophecies of the Apocalyps in the Bible; as God will wait with His ultimate Justice untill that very day, having given the opportunity to mankind to be saved by His perfect Love (Jesus Christ) and will finally use His Almighty power to bring about this Justice...

Whether or not you conclude He isn't truly omniscient or Almighty is only a matter of definition here as He is still the ultimate being and all begins and ends through Him.

Ok. The point of this thread, though, was whether true omniscience was compatible with free will.

 

[Digit]

I think the problem you guys are having is that in this theoretical scenario, the choices are known... and you are confusing those knowns with the perception of free will and thus eliminating the prospect of having free will (as it's merely a perception) and by subsequent elimination you run down the line and knock out most of scripture as unreliable as it's all based off of a loving omniscient God and Him loving us so to give us a choice (free will) until you get to the point where you have to the two lowest common denominators, God, and free will which you can't reconcile due to the known choices. Which is great if you need to do that to support your position in that both are mutually exclusive.

I don't think that way however, as explained. So... *shrug* Each to their own I guess.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[sentipente]

It always amazes me the confidence the creatures have that they know the characteristics of the Creator. If is almost as if the creatures are the ones who made the Creator.

 

[Digit]

It always amazes me the confidence the creatures have that they know the characteristics of the Creator. If is almost as if the creatures are the ones who made the Creator.

Exactly.

Digit

 

[elcapitan]

You have omitted that I don't think God operates in time as we do. I find backing for this in scripture and it happens to support my position of how God operates in our lives quite well.

If that's the case, then all time exists simultaneously and the past is as immutable as the future.

Again, you confuse free will with knowledge. In hindsight in a theoretical timeline we can look back and clearly see choice layed out before us, the fact that I chose one or another does not eliminate my free will. The fact that we have hindsight in this instance and know what I chose, does not eliminate my free will. My choice was no more predetermined than anything else in that scenario, we simply have knowledge of what it is that I chose and you are taking that knowledge to mean I had no choice.

But you are talking about hindsight. You know what you chose because you have this hindsight; the past is immutable. In the same way, God has foresight and knows what will choose; the future is immutable.

I know precious few people that can choose when to wake up.

In the scenario, however, God chooses when you wake up.

I could, but I did not. If I had, then God perhaps nothing would have happened.

So why couldn't God have woken you up early, and then you decided to skip work?

Well, choosing when to concentrate or not is largely wishful thinking, as anyone knows who has been dead tired and is in zombie mode in the morning. I probably could have chosen to concentrate more, the choice is still there, yet due to sleep deprivation, bright sunshine and the prospect of heading to a dreary days work (lets say) I did not, I chose to stumble on my way to work as it was less effort.

But what if you had chosen to concentrate?

The problem is that you are looking at these situations in hindsight. (You did this, you were that.) But the problem is not what has already happened, the problem is what will happen.

If God exists outside of time and to God everything is as if it already happened, then the future is as immutable as the past. You can't go back and change your past choices; likewise you'd never be able to change your future choices. How, then, can there be free will?

 

[elcapitan]

I think the problem you guys are having is that in this theoretical scenario, the choices are known...

Yes, an omniscient being knows them

and you are confusing those knowns with the perception of free will and thus eliminating the prospect of having free will (as it's merely a perception)

The scenario is a simplification. Even if the choices are not known to us, and omniscient knows them.

and by subsequent elimination you run down the line and knock out most of scripture as unreliable as it's all based off of a loving omniscient God and Him loving us so to give us a choice (free will)

I don't think anyone has done that on this thread.

until you get to the point where you have to the two lowest common denominators, God, and free will which you can't reconcile due to the known choices. Which is great if you need to do that to support your position in that both are mutually exclusive.

um...right

 

[elcapitan]

Exactly.

Digit

I think he was referring to you.

You're the one who claims to know all about how God works, after all.

 

[Digit]

If God exists outside of time and to God everything is as if it already happened, then the future is as immutable as the past.

Which future? *headdesk*

You still think there is only one possible one and that is limited by the fact that God already KNOWS it and as such our free will is simply an illusion.

What if there are an infinite amount of possible futures, all dictated by our free will to choose and do as we wish. That appears to me, how it is now. Sans God.

Now add in the fact (theoretical or otherwise) that God exists and God knows about all of these infinitely possible futures. What does that change?

Nothing.

It simply means He knows about them. He has knowledge. He is omniscient. That doesn't mean we suddenly don't have choice, or free will, it simply means God is omniscient and is aware of every single possible outcome.

You can't go back and change your past choices; likewise you'd never be able to change your future choices. How, then, can there be free will?

Why does knowledge of our choice mean we don't have free will? I still don't understand why you feel compelled to make one of these a square peg and the other a round hole unless it's as Chris777 says, it's a loaded question. Is it?

I don't pretend to know how time works and what impacts our choices have on timelines in our lives and those of others, but I am happy to have reconciled something that bothered me for a time, which was primarily God and suffering. In light of that I am ok with two things:
1) I see no issue with God knowing what we will do in our lives, and free will. Knowledge of one does not eliminate choice of the other.
2) I am content in not knowing the full extent of some things. I don't need all the answers, as surely then, I would be God myself.

Digit

 

[sentipente]

It appears to me that the problem in this discussion is that the two focal terms, omniscient and free will, have not been adequately defined. It seems both sides are talking past each other increasing their post count but adding nothing to the body of knowledge.