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Why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will.

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Wiccan_Child

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Because the creator cannot be part of it's creation. If that were case then he wouldn't be anything more than a participant in creation. Christians believe that God created the world exnilo Out of nothing.

Perhaps, but in my scenario, the only trait of God is omniscience. How does this necessitate spacelessness and timelessness?
Indeed, if one is outside of time, how does one act? If one exists outside of space, how is one able to process information?


No-
once again God is not part of the system. OUR objective reality is that there is free will and that random things happen. GOD is not part of our system so it is wrong to apply the same standard to God.
I don't understand your objection. The reality of the situation is known by God (what with being omniscient and all). I am a limited entity, and my perceptions are possibly limited. That I percieve free will does not mean free will de re exists.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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It seems to me you do not listen to your own.
I assure you, I hold consistancy in very high regard.

You STATED in the open that the omni will know
Indeed. As the creator of the scenario, I can set it up any which way.

HAVE you not read your own mind?
To reiteraite:
No: I have not made my decision yet. The omniscient knows what I will pick, but I have not even considered the scenario.

Note that the 'I' here is the fictional me. Naturally, I myself have never been in such a scenario, but in the thought experiment 'I' find myself in it.
 
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MrdeRastignac

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That's doublethink. If He didn't know exactly what He would be doing in the year 2356, He would no longer be omniscient.
Of course, this brings up another argument: If god is omniscient, can He Himself have free will? If He doesn't have free will, is He truly omnipotent?

So, now are you saying that God isn't omniscient? Is he just almost omniscient (i.e. knows everything except what He Himself will do)?


But what if God doesn't have free will?
Even if you think He does, how does that imply that man would have free will? Man obviously doesn't have all the attributes of God, so why would he have free will in particular?

I guess you misread my post, first you split the 1st part of the argument into 2 parts and then take them to mean 2 different things. But they're not 2 different things! I agree though that point 1) was a little dense due to the amount of info (I'm thinking faster than I write).

I believe He has free will because otherwise there would be something 'above' God which could be called 'destiny' or something and God would be its slave in a certain way. In point one I gave the example of 1 person healed @ Bethesda (but there were a lot of sick people there), but there are a lot of other parts in Scripture where you can see God has free will (conversation with Satan in the book of Job; the disciples healing a sick man near the temple which was 'always' there, but was not healed when Jesus was alive; the story of Abraham and especially the 'Sodom' part etc.).

I already indicated that in my original answer to my first post, I made it green in the following quote. However there's also 'real proof' in Scripture like the near-sacrifice of Abraham's son; the fall of Satan (proving angels have free will); the tree in the Garden of Eden, the names that Adam could give to the animals; Satan tempting Jesus in the desert (which essentially is proof of both man and God having free will) etc. etc..

Okay, having posted this myself, let's try to explain something like this. Please note that this is only a possible theological/philosophical and hypothetical explanation just made up by me.

1) God is omniscient, however God has a free will of his own. But God can't know exactly what He would be doing in the year 2356, as otherwise He would be a slave of His own omniscient nature. All He does is good and just.. of course! But God is also Grace and He clearly doesn't heal or punishes everybody who asks for it. So that gives Him a choice (just one person was healed @ Bethesda).
In a way one could argue that this omniscient nature is only truly valid outside God.

2) Man was created in a way that (one way or another) he 'd resemble God. Just like God we've free will. Let's see that 'free will' as a kind of divine attribute (being in a way part of God, or God's nature). Hence, following from 1) the omniscient nature of God doesn't have to be 100% valid with respect to us men....

How could the Heavens rejoice for every saved sinner, if they already knew this before Creation. That would just be old news...

Actually in science this approach wouldn't even be weird, as a lot of stuff is only valid in certain conditions or with respect to a certain reference frame. To see the original context, refer back to my original post though, where I am reacting on my previous post in which I'm saying the OP has a point.
 
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elcapitan

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I guess you misread my post, first you split the 1st part of the argument into 2 parts and then take them to mean 2 different things. But they're not 2 different things! I agree though that point 1) was a little dense due to the amount of info (I'm thinking faster than I write).

I believe He has free will because otherwise there would be something 'above' God which could be called 'destiny' or something and God would be its slave in a certain way. In point one I gave the example of 1 person healed @ Bethesda (but there were a lot of sick people there), but there are a lot of other parts in Scripture where you can see God has free will (conversation with Satan in the book of Job; the disciples healing a sick man near the temple which was 'always' there, but was not healed when Jesus was alive; the story of Abraham and especially the 'Sodom' part etc.).

I already indicated that in my original answer to my first post, I made it green in the following quote. However there's also 'real proof' in Scripture like the near-sacrifice of Abraham's son; the fall of Satan (proving angels have free will); the tree in the Garden of Eden, the names that Adam could give to the animals; Satan tempting Jesus in the desert (which essentially is proof of both man and God having free will) etc. etc..



Actually in science this approach wouldn't even be weird, as a lot of stuff is only valid in certain conditions or with respect to a certain reference frame. To see the original context, refer back to my original post though, where I am reacting on my previous post in which I'm saying the OP has a point.
Ok. So are you saying that God is not omniscient?
 
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mooduck1

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Perhaps, but in my scenario, the only trait of God is omniscience. How does this necessitate spacelessness and timelessness? Lets say i carve a wooden horse. I created the horse (albeit not ex nilo as God works). Can I be part of that horse? No. Can God yes - but is he necessarily part of it? No. God can interact with his creation on a level that I cannot interact with mine nevertheless we are still by definition not part of our creations.
Indeed, if one is outside of time, how does one act? If one exists outside of space, how is one able to process information?

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I don't understand your objection. The reality of the situation is known by God (what with being omniscient and all). I am a limited entity, and my perceptions are possibly limited. That I percieve free will does not mean free will de re exists.
I can't really dispute your logic assuming IF I assume that things work for us the same way they work for God. Since I cannot even speak however, of a "universe" where God resides since he is the creator, I believe it to be rash to assume this logic to be a good tool for understanding what God experiences.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Lets say i carve a wooden horse. I created the horse (albeit not ex nilo as God works). Can I be part of that horse? No.

If you construct it aroud yourself, or if you are integral to it's design, or if you subsequently enter the horse: yes.

Can God yes - but is he necessarily part of it? No. God can interact with his creation on a level that I cannot interact with mine nevertheless we are still by definition not part of our creations.

I can't really dispute your logic assuming IF I assume that things work for us the same way they work for God. Since I cannot even speak however, of a "universe" where God resides since he is the creator, I believe it to be rash to assume this logic to be a good tool for understanding what God experiences.
I never said God was the Creator. Merely an omniscient being.
 
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metherion

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Indeed. But the omniscient still knows.
Yes, but that knowledge in and of itself is the only thing the being possesses, and that knowledge alone is not making it impossible for you to choose box B.

If there is a possibility of it happening, then you cannot state that it won't happen: that is the very definition of probability. If it is possible, then you cannot state that it won't. The two are mutually exclusive terms.

If I may restate what you say;

If the ability for it to happen is there, then I cannot state that it will not happen.
If it is possible to happen, I cannot state that it will not happen.

If you think that this is an unfair representation of what you have said, then say so and ignore the following bit. I'm just shuffling your words a bit while trying to keep the same meaning to make my response easier, and if I failed to keep the meaning straight just say so.

Now, again, it seems you are confusing can't and won't. Something may have the ability to happen, but no possibility of happening. For instance, the pH of water is 7. That means that 10^-7th of the water molecules are H+ and OH- at any given time. (Another way to think about it is 10^-5 % of them are torn apart at any given point in time.) Now, because which ones are currently torn apart and which are not is random, it is possible that all the water on the planet could separate at the same time (which would, obviously, kill everything on the planet.) It is physically possible for that to happen. But it will not happen. The same occurs with you and your two boxes. At no point is the choice of box B denied to you in any way. There is nothing preventing you from picking it. But you won't. Remember, you don't know the being knows you will pick box A, you didn't even say in the OP that you knew of a prediction! You would probably wind up dithering for some amount of time wondering which box it picked for you to pick and eventually just pick one, without the being having ever influenced you in any way. There was nothing to stop you from picking the other box, you just didn't pick it, and the being knows that after your dithering you won't pick it, that at any point in time you could have picked it, and you might even have picked it and then decided to actually pick the other one several times, but you could have finalized it as your choice at any time.


I disagree. From my point of view, nothing has changed. But to an impartial observer (such as the omniscient itself), I am limited to one choice: box A.
Remember, the choice is not fixed until after it happens. The omniscient knows the outcome of the choice because it knows everything about after the choice is made. But up until the choice is made it is not fixed. The being knows what happens after the 'fixing point', but until that point, the choice is still a free one. The fact that the outcome is known does not deny they choice itself.


Now, I figure I'll put in my own view on omniscience. Ialways figured that omniscience is knowing everything. Which, in this case, would mean knowing all possibilities of the choice of box, and all the dilemmas the choice of each box would lead to, and all the choices to those dilemmas, and the further dilemmas each of those choices would cause, and their possible solutions, and so on. Kind of like a cone from the point in time we are at.

Metherion
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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God has planned for you to learn to ride a bike. He planned for you to meet that best friend you hang out with. God planned for you to get married to that girl.

God didn't plan for you to purposely ride that bike into your neighbors car, to stab your friend in the back by kissing his girlfriend, and to cheat on that girl. God plans the situations and the trials, but not the sin or the decisions. He's quite a good organizer.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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God has planned for you to learn to ride a bike. He planned for you to meet that best friend you hang out with. God planned for you to get married to that girl.

God didn't plan for you to purposely ride that bike into your neighbors car, to stab your friend in the back by kissing his girlfriend, and to cheat on that girl. God plans the situations and the trials, but not the sin or the decisions. He's quite a good organizer.
So if it's good, it's God, but if it's bad, it's us? Sounds like a bit of a cop-out to me...
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Yes, but that knowledge in and of itself is the only thing the being possesses, and that knowledge alone is not making it impossible for you to choose box B.
The whole point of the thread is to discuss whether or not the knowledge of an omniscient restricts our options by proxy.

If I may restate what you say;

If the ability for it to happen is there, then I cannot state that it will not happen.
If it is possible to happen, I cannot state that it will not happen.

If you think that this is an unfair representation of what you have said, then say so and ignore the following bit. I'm just shuffling your words a bit while trying to keep the same meaning to make my response easier, and if I failed to keep the meaning straight just say so.
It is an accurate rephrasing, though I am curious as to what you mean by 'ability'.

Now, again, it seems you are confusing can't and won't. Something may have the ability to happen, but no possibility of happening. For instance, the pH of water is 7. That means that 10^-7th of the water molecules are H+ and OH- at any given time. (Another way to think about it is 10^-5 % of them are torn apart at any given point in time.) Now, because which ones are currently torn apart and which are not is random, it is possible that all the water on the planet could separate at the same time (which would, obviously, kill everything on the planet.) It is physically possible for that to happen. But it will not happen.
Why on Earth not? Remember that pH is a statistical average: 1/10^7 an average. I take it you have some chemical background: you must know how water can evapourate at room temperature and pressure.
And this is before we add quantum to the mix!
Basically, all the water in the universe could go into such a form. There is no reason why it won't, it is perfectly capable of doing so, and thus we cannot say that it won't. We can say that it probably won't, but that's a rather different statement.

The same occurs with you and your two boxes. At no point is the choice of box B denied to you in any way. There is nothing preventing you from picking it. But you won't.
I disagree: the existance of foreknowledge alters reality.

Remember, you don't know the being knows you will pick box A, you didn't even say in the OP that you knew of a prediction! You would probably wind up dithering for some amount of time wondering which box it picked for you to pick and eventually just pick one, without the being having ever influenced you in any way. There was nothing to stop you from picking the other box, you just didn't pick it, and the being knows that after your dithering you won't pick it, that at any point in time you could have picked it, and you might even have picked it and then decided to actually pick the other one several times, but you could have finalized it as your choice at any time.
I agree with your assesment of the scenario: for all intents and purposes, I am not aware of the omniscients existance.
But the fact remains that the omniscient exists (in the scenario, at least), and it is my belief that it's foreknowledge denies the existance of free will.

Remember, the choice is not fixed until after it happens. The omniscient knows the outcome of the choice because it knows everything about after the choice is made. But up until the choice is made it is not fixed. The being knows what happens after the 'fixing point', but until that point, the choice is still a free one. The fact that the outcome is known does not deny they choice itself.
Of course it does: if it is not fixed, if the possibility of picking box B remains, then the omniscient does not know what will happen. Conversly, that the omniscient does know what will happen belies the possibility of picking box B, and implicitly fixes the decision.

Now, I figure I'll put in my own view on omniscience. Ialways figured that omniscience is knowing everything. Which, in this case, would mean knowing all possibilities of the choice of box, and all the dilemmas the choice of each box would lead to, and all the choices to those dilemmas, and the further dilemmas each of those choices would cause, and their possible solutions, and so on. Kind of like a cone from the point in time we are at.
While that would be very, very close to omniscience, it is a hair's breadth away from true omniscience: it doesn't know what option will be taken at each junction.
If free will truely exists, then this is as close to omniscience as any entity can hope to be. But it is not omniscience, since everything is not known.
And interesting thought though; I hadn't considered that.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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So if it's good, it's God, but if it's bad, it's us? Sounds like a bit of a cop-out to me...

No, if it's good it's us, if it's bad it's us. God has absolutely no say in our decisions. The most He can do is knock on your head and say "Look, I think this is a bad idea" much like the devil can do the opposite and encourage it. I don't believe man is naturally wicked, just naturally sinners. We're capable of doing good on our own.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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No, if it's good it's us, if it's bad it's us. God has absolutely no say in our decisions. The most He can do is knock on your head and say "Look, I think this is a bad idea" much like the devil can do the opposite and encourage it. I don't believe man is naturally wicked, just naturally sinners. We're capable of doing good on our own.
Unfortunately, God seems to be telling people contradictory things. He tells some people homosexuality is equivalent to heterosexuality, and to others he condemnds it as an abomination.
 
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Gukkor

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Unfortunately, God seems to be telling people contradictory things. He tells some people homosexuality is equivalent to heterosexuality, and to others he condemnds it as an abomination.

Perhaps it is equivalent for some and an abomination for others.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Perhaps it is equivalent for some and an abomination for others.
Which is my point: why does God tell some people one thing and other people another?
Unless, of course, God does no such thing.
 
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Gukkor

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Which is my point: why does God tell some people one thing and other people another?

People's needs are different. Their personalities and circumstances vary widely. What is alright for one person may well turn out to be spiritually, or even physically harmful for someone else.
 
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Armistead

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I haven't read everything, but the OP makes a good point. I've often thought about it in regards to prayer.

God being all knowing of the future, he already knows every prayer I'm going to pray and has already answered it trillions of years before I was born..just to put it in perspective.

How can my prayer change his mind? If it would cause him to change his mind, he would already know that result. Actually, this dilemma couldn't happen to God.

So let's say I pray for protection for something every night. Then one night I didn't and something happened.
Did lack of prayer change the result? Let's say I did pray every night, but if I hadn't something bad would happen.
God has already determined the result..either way.
Where is freewill in the prayer process.

That make sense.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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People's needs are different. Their personalities and circumstances vary widely. What is alright for one person may well turn out to be spiritually, or even physically harmful for someone else.
Ah, so morality is circumstantial, purely subjective. On this we agree.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I haven't read everything, but the OP makes a good point. I've often thought about it in regards to prayer.

God being all knowing of the future, he already knows every prayer I'm going to pray and has already answered it trillions of years before I was born..just to put it in perspective.

How can my prayer change his mind? If it would cause him to change his mind, he would already know that result. Actually, this dilemma couldn't happen to God.

So let's say I pray for protection for something every night. Then one night I didn't and something happened.
Did lack of prayer change the result? Let's say I did pray every night, but if I hadn't something bad would happen.
God has already determined the result..either way.
Where is freewill in the prayer process.

That make sense.
Aha, you are creating causality loops. An exotic solution, I must say. :thumbsup:
 
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