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Exactly. So what does Romans have to say on the matter? I don't have the time to sift through it, I'm afraid.ah then this all comes down to "what it means to be a Christian". Romans, its a book in the bible, it explains what it takes to become/mean a Christian.
Its quite a long book with a lot to say about the mater. If you are really interested in this topic I suggest you read it because the Jon version wont do it justice.Exactly. So what does Romans have to say on the matter? I don't have the time to sift through it, I'm afraid.
YOU ARE FREE TO DO OTHERWISE! HE JUST KNOWS YOU WILL NOT DO 'the otherwise'!!!I disagree: if he knows what we will do, what our actions will be, then how are we free to do otherwise? For omniscience to exist, the universe must be predictable.
YOU ARE FREE TO DO OTHERWISE! HE JUST KNOWS YOU WILL NOT DO 'the otherwise'!!!
For him to have foreknowledge, the universe must be deterministic. How, then, can such a probabalistic thing as free will exist in a deterministic universe?IF you were going to do otherwise, HE'D OF KNOWN THAT TOO. You're still free to pick it; He just knew what you'de pick. Still your choice.
I'm baffled at how this doesn't make sense to some.
God can know what you WILL DO ahead of time BECUZ HE'S OUTSIDE OF TIME AND SPACE (not created). He isn't bound by our constraints of beginning and end.
I find it absurd that God made the tree in the first place. I find it more absurd that the Serpent is the one who told them the true effect of eating the fruit, whilst God lied. Catagorically lied.God even foreordained Christ to die [for sin] before the foundations of the world... DID GOD MAKE ADAM & EVE SIN?? No, God gave them 1 tree in a garden and put 1 restriction on it. (how strict could He get? lol).
Psychics are not omniscient; vague notions about the future, however true they may be, can be fulfilled by a variety of scenarios. For an omniscient, only one scenario will fulfill it's predictions.Call it "psychic"! maybe then it will make more sense to you.
[/color]A condradiction of terms, my dear. If he knows that I will not do otherwise, how am I free to?
For him to have foreknowledge, the universe must be deterministic. How, then, can such a probabalistic thing as free will exist in a deterministic universe?
What should God have put in the garden? An Ipod?? if you turn on the ipod you're disobeying.I find it absurd that God made the tree in the first place. I find it more absurd that the Serpent is the one who told them the true effect of eating the fruit, whilst God lied. Catagorically lied.
Question: if he is outside time and space, how can he do anything? A timeless entity can perform no action.What contradiction? HE IS OUTSIDE TIME AND SPACE - He sees before, during AND after.
We're seeing light that has taken years to reach us; the image they depict is often ancient. However, observing the past is different from observing the future.You do realize that the stars we see out in the universe, we're seeing outside our time frame? (light years from now???).
On this we disagree.God knowing isn't removing or forcing your decision.
He shouldn't have put anything in the Garden that he didn't want touched. It's just asking for trouble (especially when you also create a Temptor).What should God have put in the garden? An Ipod?? if you turn on the ipod you're disobeying.
Then leave. I'm not stopping you.You know as I read your replies here, I'm not inclined to even continue on this thread (which is why I originally didn't participate much). Nothing we've said has even penetrated into your understanding.
If you reject it all, fine. There's no more left to say that hasn't already been covered by others.
Of course it's STUPID & silly to you - it's so SIMPLE, that you refuse it for the brilliance that it actually is. Oh well. I posted the verses that God's way is FOOLISH to those rejecting their salvation. AND IT IS! To me, IT'S LIBERATING & BRILLIANT in it's simplicity while at the same time its all powerful, profound and complex!
With all due respect, you have explained nothing.You're mind looks made up and/or closed off to hearing what's been explained, so I will bid you a fair weekend.
and again if you want to define free will as probabilistic then no one denies it doesn't exist. Actually if this is how you want to define free will it can only exist with a super natural force because by definition that is the only way to get around the determination of causation.[/color]How, then, can such a probabalistic thing as free will exist in a deterministic universe?
Wiccan, we have discussed this to we are blue in the face and you conceded all of my main points. You maintain that knowledge isnt causal. But you maintain that foreknowledge constraint freedom (which is a cause claim).
No one here is denying determinism, we are just denying that Gods foreknowledge causes our actions.
If I drop a ball do I know with certainty that it will fall towards earth at 9.8 meters per second unless another force gets in its way? Does this knowledge cause the ball to fall, is this what constrains the balls action?
Just because an entity does not have free will doesn't mean that it doesn't have the illusion of free will, or that it isn't sentient (and therefore capable of aquiring knowledge and making predictions).and again if you want to define free will as probabilistic then no one denies it doesn't exist. Actually if this is how you want to define free will it can only exist with a super natural force because by definition that is the only way to get around the determination of causation.
I don't see how. For foreknowledge to exist, the universe must be of a certain form. It's like the anthropic principle: life doesn't force the universe to be hospitable, but the existance of life tells us that it just happens to be.
That second premise (determinism implies a lack of free will) is what you have yet to offer ANY evidence for; that is you have yet to show that determinism denys free will in any other sense then defining free will to be mutually exclusive with determinism. I mean think about it; your argument has a stipulatory definition and is analytic. If your argument is to really mean anything it should be synthetic in some manner. Basically what you are saying is Determinism is incompatible with something that denies determinism by definition where we will call something “free will”.[/color]
As am I. My argument is that God's foreknowledge implies a deterministic universe, which in turn implies an absence of free will.
Under the disproven system of Newtonian mechanics, you know the motion of the ball: it is deterministic. Under the as-yet undisproven system of Quantum mechanics, you do not know the motion of the ball: it is probabalistic. It is likely to fall towards the Earth at a uniform acceleration, but there is no guarantee that it will.
You are arguing to argue, you understand the point I am making. Also you don’t have a good understanding of the uncertainty principle. The UP makes claims about what we can know, or be certain of; not about governing principles. [/color]Probabalistic guesstimations do not constitute foreknowledge.
I have made no claims about perception of will.Just because an entity does not have free will doesn't mean that it doesn't have the illusion of free will, or that it isn't sentient (and therefore capable of aquiring knowledge and making predictions).
Question: if he is outside time and space, how can he do anything? A timeless entity can perform no action.
We're seeing light that has taken years to reach us; the image they depict is often ancient. However, observing the past is different from observing the future.
On this we disagree.
He shouldn't have put anything in the Garden that he didn't want touched. It's just asking for trouble (especially when you also create a Temptor).
Then leave. I'm not stopping you.
[/color][/b]There's no reason to believe the Christian myth of salvation, any more than there is to believe the Islamic myth of salvation, or the Buddhist myth of 'salvation' (freedom from samsara), etc. Why should a person consider Christianity instead of the plethora of other faiths?
With all due respect, you have explained nothing.
Question: if he is outside time and space, how can he do anything? A timeless entity can perform no action.
We're seeing light that has taken years to reach us; the image they depict is often ancient. However, observing the past is different from observing the future.
Because of the following:There's no reason to believe the Christian myth of salvation, any more than there is to believe the Islamic myth of salvation, or the Buddhist myth of 'salvation' (freedom from samsara), etc. Why should a person consider Christianity instead of the plethora of other faiths?
Do you maintain that God caused the choice the person made?
No, God gives people the ability to choose weather or not to obey. So God's will is that all should have free will. I think God would want everyone to believe, but He wills their free will.
Nope. The choice is made when you actually make it. Foreknowledge does not violate this.
God's knowing what you will choose doesn't eliminate your free choices. If God knows that someone is going to reject Him, that still does not eliminate the possibility that they would accept God; if they did accept God though, that would just mean God knew differently. Free choice is still not violated.
Why does God create people who He knows will freely choose to reject Him?
We're still free to choose either.
That second premise (determinism implies a lack of free will) is what you have yet to offer ANY evidence for; that is you have yet to show that determinism denys free will in any other sense then defining free will to be mutually exclusive with determinism. I mean think about it; your argument has a stipulatory definition and is analytic. If your argument is to really mean anything it should be synthetic in some manner. Basically what you are saying is Determinism is incompatible with something that denies determinism by definition where we will call something free will.
On the contrary, by demonstrating that your particular analogy is flawed, you are forced to present another that does convey your point, or explain your point more clearly.You are arguing to argue, you understand the point I am making.
The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle places restrictions on how accurately we can measure a particles position and momentum at the same time, and also the time it is in a certain energy state and the energy of the state itself. The product of the uncertainity in momentum and position, or in duration and energy, is always greater than or equal to ħ/2. My statements are valid.Also you dont have a good understanding of the uncertainty principle. The UP makes claims about what we can know, or be certain of; not about governing principles.
You said: Actually if this is how you want to define free will it can only exist with a super natural force because by definition that is the only way to get around the determination of causation.I have made no claims about perception of will.
Where on Earth did I say such a thing? I don't expect Nadiine to respond, so I leave this as an open question.According to you, ONLY YOU explain anything correctly... good day
That is one reason why God is a Trinity. For its the Holy Spirit and Son who enter into time and space. The Father is always remaining transcendent.
I'm sorry? I do not see how this is relevant to my point, nor what this statement means as is.God is mind boggling if you try to put him in a box.
Because of the following:
Luke 10:22 (New International Version)
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
Salvation is not just making up ones mind to believe something (though, religious people do that). Salvation is an experience that opens the eyes of the one who has believed to what could not be seen before.
Now, don't give me that "its the power of suggestion" mantra. I was born a Jew.
Born into a Christian family, and raised to believe Christian mythology. Try not to take things literally.
How were you 'born' a Christian?
Did you have a point, or...?Prayers...
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