Why 2012?????

According to Biblical prophecy, the tribulation begins when the Anti-Christ negotiates a peace treaty with Israel. When that document is signed, count 7 years and BINGO, you get the time of Christ's return.

So, I doubt it can be 2012 anyway. The anti-Christ hasn't made himself known yet.

DeaconDean said:

Exactly! And if you want to be exact, Jerusalem is still being "trodden down of the Gentiles." Israel does not possess all of Jerusalem yet.

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And who or what is "Israel"
You have bloodshed between 2 semite religions over a plot of land that has no more future biblical difference than Africa or China.

John 11:48 if we may let him alone thus, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and will take away both our place and nation.'

Lamentations 2:1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

Reve 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city] is like the great city?

OreGal said:

Let me just say something, I hope if anybody who believes any of the many 'Jesus returning' predictions has children, I hope you don't share this with your children.

Let me tell you why.

Back in the 70's and 80's my mother was very into these predictions (she still is but God's freed me from those heretical teachings). As a child I, as children do, believed my mother and trusted her. Jesus didn't come back in the 80's and then He forgot to come back in the 90's and those dates came and went. She now seems to believe 2005 (or it seems to be shifting into 2006) is the year. God's really helped me to forgive her but that doesn't erase the fact that these teachings caused me a great deal of confusion and pain as a child.

Nobody knows the day or hour and they don't even know the year. Some people seem to think that natural disasters will occur in intensity and within the year, we'll be out of here. However, looking at God's timescale, it could be another 40 years or 400 years.

Stay away from the predictions. Keep watch for Him because He could come back in a blink of an eye or it could be 40 or more years from now. Don't lose your focus and I do firmly believe these predictions make Christians lose their focus. So, in this case, let's say for a moment 2012 comes and goes, do you just find another person who has a prediction (and there is always a prediction) to latch onto?

This is said in love simply because I don't want people to go through what I have been through in my lifetime.

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If you teach your children the truth from the Word of God, then why should you or your child fear?

For those of us watching for Christ's return, it is a blessing not an anxiety.

Prophecy verses "predictions" are the SOURCE.

Prophetic ministries come from the Holy Spirit verses predictions that come from demonic power.

When you know and love Christ, there is no fear. For perfect love casts out all fear. Child or Adult. Jesus' promises will come to pass about His Return. Those of us who love Him are watching diligently for Him. Sometimes it's even fun to talk about it with other believers.

I think if you keep your child in the dark about the truth of the Word of God, then you are not being a faithful steward over that child's soul.

The Bible says we will not know the day or hour.
It doesn't mention year or month.

Warrior4ChristAL said:

According to Biblical prophecy, the tribulation begins when the Anti-Christ negotiates a peace treaty with Israel.

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That's according to Tim LaHaye, not Biblical prophecy.

HowardDean said:

The Bible says we will not know the day or hour.
It doesn't mention year or month.

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I think that's what the Russelites said when they said the Lord would return in 1914.

Prophecy verses "predictions" are the SOURCE.

Prophetic ministries come from the Holy Spirit verses predictions that come from demonic power.

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I have a hard time telling the difference here LOL.

According to Biblical prophecy, the tribulation begins when the Anti-Christ negotiates a peace treaty with Israel.

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Jipsah said:

That's according to Tim LaHaye, not Biblical prophecy.

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Yes. The Joseph Smith of christianity.

Matt 23: 38 "See! Your house is left to you a Wilderness;

Reve 19:3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, "Amen! Alleluia!"

It occured to me today that there is a presidential election in 2012. By then, we should have electronic voting machines as well. I just thought it was ironic concerning this thread. I'm not saying anything, I just thought it was interesting

Not that interesting. The Olympics will be then, too.

HowardDean said:

Not that interesting. The Olympics will be then, too.

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And the beggining of trouble with the Social security and 401k systems.

HowardDean said:

The Bible says we will not know the day or hour.
It doesn't mention year or month.

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Some Messianic Jews believe He will return during the Feast of Trumpets.

Everything having to do with the O.T. Feasts were a type and shadow of Christ and His Ministry.

He died on Passover to be the Passover Lamb, they believe He will return on Trumpets because of the 7 Trumpets of Revelation go hand and hand with the Feast.

You are right. We are not told the "day or hour" but that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit cannot quicken us to the year. It's just important not to proclaim a specific year because then you will be called a "false prophet" if it doesn't come to pass. We are suppose to be a people of integrity too. The world doesn't need any other thing to label Christians with more distain.

Jipsah said:

That's according to Tim LaHaye, not Biblical prophecy.

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[FONT=Arrus BT, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the corner of the altar, desolating abominations, even until the end. Daniel 9:27[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=+1]
BTW - I base MY DOCTRINE on the Holy Word of God, not Tim LaHaye, thank you very much!!

[/SIZE][/FONT]Christ warned, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:15-22). Obviously, the setting up of the “abomination of desolation” is the one most important event signaling the beginning of the Great Tribulation! But what is it? Where is it to be set up? Who, or what, does it represent? When will we see it in place? Matthew warned, “Whoso readeth, let him understand,” so God intends we should understand what Christ meant not be ignorant of one of the most important events in future history.

[SIZE=+2]C[/SIZE]hrist’s strange warning about an “abomination of desolation” means, literally, “the abomination of the desolater,” which all authorities generally agree meant an idol, or idolatrous apparatus, to be set up in the holy place by the individual who would destroy Jerusalem, or cause it to become “desolate.”
An “abomination” is something God detests, and comes from the Hebrew word shakaz, for an idol; something, or someone who is worshiped in place of the true God.
Christ specifically stated He was referring to the same thing written in the book of Daniel. Daniel’s prophecy mentions this “abomination” several times: Daniel 9:27; 11:31 and 12:2 are examples. These scriptures identify, in symbol, the perpetrator.
Of Daniel’s prophecy, Kitto says, “This appears to have been a prediction of the pollution of the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes, who caused an idolatrous altar to be built on the altar of burnt offerings, whereon unclean things were offered to Jupiter Olympius, to whom the temple itself was dedicated” (Encyclopedia of Biblical Literature, John Kitto, Vol. 1, p. 22).
Daniel wrote of a “little horn” coming up among the ten horns of the beast a symbol of a government, or ruler, who succeeds in overthrowing three successive kings, then holds sway over the final seven heads of the Holy Roman Empire. We shall see much more of this “little horn” later in this article.
Of the abomination of desolation and the one who puts it in place, Daniel wrote, “Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down” (Daniel 8:11).
The Critical and Experimental Commentary says, “Though robbed of its treasures, it was not strictly ‘cast down’ by Antiochus; so that a fuller accomplishment is future. Antiochus took away the daily sacrifice for a few years; the Romans, for many ages, and ‘cast down’ the temple; and Antichrist, in connection with Rome, the fourth kingdom, shall do so again, after the Jews in their own land, still unbelieving, shall have rebuilt the temple and restored the Mosaic ritual” (Faussett, Vol. 4, p. 427, emphasis mine).
Obviously, since Antiochus reigned hundreds of years before Christ, his desecration of the temple was only a forerunner of Daniel’s prophecy, which is referring to the time of the end (Daniel 12:4-11).
A second forerunner of this prophesied event took place shortly after Christ’s warning prophecy of Matthew 24:15, at the destruction of Jerusalem by the armies of Titus.
“This may with probability be referred to the advance of the Roman army against the city with their image-crowned standards, to which idolatrous honours were paid, and which the Jews regarded as idols. The unexpected retreat and discomfiture of the Roman forces afforded such as were mindful of our Saviour’s prophecy an opportunity of obeying the injunction which it contained, (i.e., Christ’s warning {Mat. 24:16} that they should ‘flee to the mountains.’)” (Kitto, Vol. 1, pp. 22, 23).
There was another later and more specific abomination of the holy place accomplished by emperor Hadrian, who with “...studied insult to the Jews, set up the figure of a boar over the Bethlehem gate of the city which rose upon the site and ruins of Jerusalem (Euseb. Chron., 1, i. p. 45, ed. 1658), but he erected a temple to Jupiter upon the site of the Jewish temple and caused an image of himself to be set up in the part which answered to the most holy place” (ibid., Vol. 1, p. 23).
These abominations, which took place over a vast span of time in history, are not the fulfillment of Christ’s end-time prophecy! Notice again the time setting of Christ’s Olivet prophecy:
“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...stand in the holy place...then let them which be in Jerusalem flee into the mountains...for then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
“And except those days should be shortened [by Divine intervention God’s heavenly signs, plagues, and the Second Coming of Christ], there should no flesh be saved [alive], but for the elect’s sake, those days shall be shortened” (Matthew 24:15-22).
The warning concerning the final abomination to be set up in the “holy place” is directly connected to the beginning of the great tribulation, which has as one of its main features the horrible martyrdom of saints (Daniel 7:20-21; Matthew 24:9).

Notice! “All these are be beginning of sorrows [tribulation].”

There are of course differing opinions on that!


THE REAL QUESTION CONCERNS THE IDENTITY OF "HE" IN VERSE 27
The entire issue circles around the identity of the "he" in verse 27.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: …
Who is the "he" who confirms a covenant with many for one week? Futurists, who believe that the entire 70 weeks is not yet fulfilled, contend that the "he" is the antichrist. Preterists and Partial Preterists contend that the "he" is not the antichrist but is the Messiah the Prince, Jesus Christ. Let us prove that the "he" most certainly is Jesus Christ.
It has been argued by some Futurists that Preterists teach the prince in verse 26 is Jesus, and that Preterists therefore teach that Jesus destroyed the temple accord to the statement, "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." This is simply a straw man argument (an argument that attacks a belief supposedly held by another group while in reality the other group holds no such belief at all!).
Jesus is certainly the Messiah the Prince of verse 25. Nobody in Christianity argues that. The second prince noted in verse 26, "the prince that shall come," is not Jesus Christ. That is not the problem between Futurists and Preterists. The real issue is the identity of the "he" noted in the first phrase of verse 27.
THERE ARE TWO PRINCES MENTIONED IN THE DISCOURSE
In the straw man argument proposed by some futurists, the aspect of the lower case letter "p" in the word "prince" from the phrase, "prince that shall come," is a matter of supposed proof that Preterists are incorrect. Once again, Preterists do not believe the prince in verse 26 is Jesus. So the argument about who this prince is, is not an issue anyway! But simply for the sake of noting proper study manners, I do wish to point out that it is unwise to prove a doctrine based upon the translators' preference of capitalization in a word! In the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, every word was comprised of capital letters! This shows some very weak study manners used by those Futurists who argue their point using such methods as pointing to what words are capitalized or not..
The prince in verse 25 is Jesus and the prince in 26 is not Jesus.
That is a fact.
That is not the question, though. The question is the identity of the "he" in verse 27.
So it is not a question of whether Jesus destroyed the temple and the city according to verse 26. The prince in verse 26, who was responsible for the temple and city destruction of 70 AD, was not Jesus! It was the Roman "prince". The Roman people came and destroyed the temple and City by 70 AD. Jesus and His people did not destroy the temple.
GRAMMAR PROVES CHRIST IS THE "HE"
Analyzing the grammar of verses 25 through 27 shows us that the "he" who confirms a covenant for seven years is Jesus Christ. The subject of the discussion is found in verse 25, and is the Messiah the Prince. Verse 25 mentions a span of time of "seven weeks" and "threescore and two weeks." Seven plus sixty-two is sixty-nine. The Messiah the Prince is on the scene after the first 69 weeks. And we read that after the "threescore and two weeks", Messiah shall be cut off. What is "after" the threescore and two weeks? It is the 70th WEEK! During the time after the 69th week, which is during the 70th week, Messiah is cut off. And this fits perfectly with the sequence of events that occurred in the Biblical texts of the New Testament. Jesus came, and 3.5 years later was crucified, or cut off. The "week" is a week of seven years. All agree with that. And in the midst of the "week", the sacrifice and oblation ceased. God would never again accept sacrifice of blood, since Christ was the final sacrifice God would ever recognize. This refers to the crucifixion where Christ was "cut off" due to an untimely death, as opposed to death by natural old age. He was "cut off" since He was killed. And he was not cut off for Himself! He died for the salvation of humanity! Praise God!
Not only would Christ be cut off after the 69 weeks, but the people of the prince that shall come would destroy the city and the sanctuary (temple). This was fulfilled by the year 70 AD. Desolations were "determined." Jesus Christ referred to the destruction of the Temple, Himself, in Matthew 23.
Matthew 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
"Your house is left unto you desolate."
And then we come to the verse in question. After all this information is provided, we suddenly read of "he" who confirms the covenant with many for one week. Grammar demands this "he" simply cannot be the "prince that shall come" in verse 26. The subject in question is the Messiah the Prince of verse 25.
Get the sequence of events.
The Messiah comes and is cut off.
Then a certain people destroy the city and sanctuary.
And "he" confirms the covenant with many for one week. Who? "He." This "he" must be the Messiah of verse 25! It cannot be the "prince that shall come" because this reference to the "prince that shall come" is not the subject in any point of the entire writing! After noting the cutting off of the messiah, we read that a certain people come and destroy the city and temple. And a side note to this temple destruction is that this particular people belong to a "prince that shall come". The point that is stressed, though, is not this "prince that shall come". Reference to this second prince serves only as a side note, telling us who this "people" belong to and what nation they are from.
Saying that the "he" in verse 27 is some antichrist, is similar to misinterpreting the following sentence, "Steven went to the store beside the house owned by Mr. Brown, and he purchased a loaf of bread." To say that the "he" at the end of the phrase is Mr. Brown is to make the same error as do the Futurists when they say that the "he" in verse 27 is antichrist. The '"he" in my example of Steven going to the store is of course referring to Steven. It is not Mr. Brown. It cannot be due to the grammar I used. "Steven" is the subject. Mr. Brown is only a side note! And that is exactly the manner in which the prince that shall come is involved in the discussion. He is a side note, and only a clarifier as to the identity of the people who will destroy the city and temple. He is not the subject in any sense of the word. And to make him the grammatical "subject" of Verse 27 is to simply destroy all methods of proper grammar and the association of sentences and their grammatical "subjects" with one another in the context of the particular discussion.
The Bible says nothing about a "prince" other than Jesus who confirms a covenant with anybody for seven years.
TO "MAKE" OR "CONFIRM" A COVENANT FOR 7 YEARS
Those who argue this reasoning state that Jesus did not make a covenant with anybody for a seven year period. The text reads that he would confirm a covenant with many for seven years. To confirm a covenant is to refer to an already existent covenant! It is to support a covenant and make it sure. And Jesus most certainly did make a covenant sure! He "confirmed" the covenant.
Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me
In other words, God never did ultimately desire animal sacrifice. Jesus Christ fulfilled the perfect will of God by coming as the sacrifice ultimately planned before the foundation of the world. He confirmed this covenant of God in the statement noted in Hebrews 10:5.
Jeremiah noted the covenant as follows:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
And Hebrews speaks of this covenant that Jesus made sure through His death.
Hebrews 8:6-13 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Guys the reason 2012 is so relevant, is because of this story: http://www.gvnr.com/74/3.htm

It's about the polar reversal and the damage it'll do.

I remember when it was getting to the turn of the century people were prophecying falsely dates of the Messiah's return. While we are closer than ever before, it's important not to make such assumptions and then when it passes, be labeled a liar and a false prophet.

Yes, it's getting very close. We can line up our daily news to Bible prophecy. But what is wrong with setting dates and predicting years will show the world and even some in the church that you are immature, especially when that year comes and goes and we are all still here, still waiting.

Don't give the enemy more weapons to use against you through others. He already has enough ammo.

be werey of those who put dates on Christs return noone knows nor will they ever until the at least the begining of the tribulation see Matthew 24 verse 36

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,'
49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.
50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.
51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All of these predictions are exactly when the "end" will NOT happen. It is not for us to know nor for us to figure out...
Bless you all in the name of Jesus!

/

Utah Knight said:

be werey of those who put dates on Christs return noone knows nor will they ever until the at least the begining of the tribulation see Matthew 24 verse 36

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,'
49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.
50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.
51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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I've come to realize that often people don't 'see' verses in the Bible until they are revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. The timeline isn't what is important and I do believe the people making predictions are wrong on so many levels because I believe they deceive. We are to be ready always. Whether it was 1900 years ago, 1000 years ago, 10 years ago, 10 years from now, 1000 years from now and so on...The year doesn't matter. We need to keep our eye on the ball so to speak.

OreGal said:

I've come to realize that often people don't 'see' verses in the Bible until they are revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. The timeline isn't what is important and I do believe the people making predictions are wrong on so many levels because I believe they deceive. We are to be ready always. Whether it was 1900 years ago, 1000 years ago, 10 years ago, 10 years from now, 1000 years from now and so on...The year doesn't matter. We need to keep our eye on the ball so to speak.

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