Why ... (2)

[Loudmouth]

God did not need to fine-tune the universe, the universe is fine tuned because God's purpose was mankind.

Based on what evidence?

If the constants were different then the new universe would have some feature that was unique to that universe. Every universe is going to have something that is unique to that universe. To jump to the conclusion that every universe was fine tuned to produce that unique feature is completely unwarranted.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Okay, let me rephrase - why did God need to fine-tune the universe to make mankind?

Psalm 19:1-4
"The heavens tell of the glory of God. The skies display His marvelous craftsmanship. Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make Him known. They speak without a sound or a word; their voice is silent in the skies; yet their message has gone out to all the earth, and their words to all the world..."

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rom. 1:20 , "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."[/FONT]

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

It is rather like Loudmouth keeps repeating about the fingerprint being left at the scene. God says that we who are made will understand by searching the world that He exists.

 

[Loudmouth]

It is rather like Loudmouth keeps repeating about the fingerprint being left at the scene. God says that we who are made will understand by searching the world that He exists.

Humans wrote that, not God. Secondly, it is an empty assertion bereft of all evidence.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Based on what evidence?

If the constants were different then the new universe would have some feature that was unique to that universe. Every universe is going to have something that is unique to that universe. To jump to the conclusion that every universe was fine tuned to produce that unique feature is completely unwarranted.

It is supportive evidence.

 

[Loudmouth]

It is supportive evidence.

No, it isn't. All you have are empty assertions, not evidence.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Humans wrote that, not God. Secondly, it is an empty assertion bereft of all evidence.

I guess all I can say is that it is evidence for those who can see it. If one wishes to deny it, or for those who refuse to even allow that it supports the Christian's worldview, nothing will ever be enough.

 

[Oncedeceived]

There was this one, about a gap that you want your god to fill:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7771588-87/#post64150989

And this one, where I ask if you can phrase your claims in the form of a falsifiable hypothesis, something objectively testable:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7771549-75/#post64122001

The third was the request for your criteria for determining design.

Originally Posted by Oncedeceived

I believe the ability to reason in truthful and meaningful ways is evidence for God.
​

Is that the gap you have settled on? "God" explains our ability to reason? Does this extend to the rest of the animal kingdom, or do they go it alone? Can you state this in the form of a testable, falsifiable hypothesis?

Are you sure there is a gap there big enough for your god to fit into?

You continue to either misunderstand or ignore what my point is. I am not saying that because the materialistic worldview lacks an explanation (which they do) that is not what God fills. I am trying to explain that there are worldviews that have within that view ways that explain the world we live in. It is important in determining which worldview is more consistent and can explain the reality the best. That is what I am doing.

All evidence in all of science is used to support one hypothesis or another. That is what it is based upon. So there is evidence that supports the materialistic worldview and evidence that supports mine.

P.S. The other link is to the closed thread so I am not going to respond to it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Based on what evidence?

If the constants were different then the new universe would have some feature that was unique to that universe. Every universe is going to have something that is unique to that universe. To jump to the conclusion that every universe was fine tuned to produce that unique feature is completely unwarranted.

I find it quite humorous that the self proclaimed Empiricist uses a totally unobserved unsubstantiated multiverse to reject something that is observed and substantiated by many top physicists. What does that tell you?

 

[lasthero]

Psalm 19:1-4
"The heavens tell of the glory of God. The skies display His marvelous craftsmanship. Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make Him known. They speak without a sound or a word; their voice is silent in the skies; yet their message has gone out to all the earth, and their words to all the world..."

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rom. 1:20 , "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."[/FONT]

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

It is rather like Loudmouth keeps repeating about the fingerprint being left at the scene. God says that we who are made will understand by searching the world that He exists.

...you didn't really answer my question. Why did God need to fine-tune the universe to make mankind?

 

[Loudmouth]

I guess all I can say is that it is evidence for those who can see it.

Then it isn't evidence. Evidence is not dependent on the person. Evidence is independent of the person.

If one wishes to deny it, or for those who refuse to even allow that it supports the Christian's worldview, nothing will ever be enough.

You have not presented any evidence that God fine tuned the universe to produce humans. You have simply asserted it.

 

[Loudmouth]

I find it quite humorous that the self proclaimed Empiricist uses a totally unobserved unsubstantiated multiverse to reject something that is observed and substantiated by many top physicists. What does that tell you?

I am simply showing that your same assertions will apply to any universe. Each and every universe will have a unique feature that would require a very precise arrangement of constants. Even more, you haven't even shown that life was the focus of the fine tuning. There are more black holes in the universe than there are people, so why conclude that humans were the goal? For the universe to produce a planet like Venus it requires just as much fine tuning as humans do, so why conclude that humans were the goal and not Venus?

 

[Loudmouth]

It is important in determining which worldview is more consistent and can explain the reality the best.

When has "God did it" ever turned out to be a useful explanation?

 

[Oncedeceived]

What fine tuning?

I defined it earlier?

 

[Davian]

I believe the ability to reason in truthful and meaningful ways is evidence for God.

God of the gaps again? Argument from ignorance? "I can't see how the ability for critters in this world could have evolved the ability to reason so goddidit?"

You continue to either misunderstand or ignore what my point is. I am not saying that because the materialistic worldview lacks an explanation (which they do) that is not what God fills. I am trying to explain that there are worldviews that have within that view ways that explain the world we live in. It is important in determining which worldview is more consistent and can explain the reality the best. That is what I am doing.

Reality is not determined by the use of false dichotomies. Showing a weakness is another's worldview (straw versions or not) does not validate yours. You are wasting your time.

All evidence in all of science is used to support one hypothesis or another. That is what it is based upon. So there is evidence that supports the materialistic worldview and evidence that supports mine.

Then present this evidence in an objectively testable, falsifiable hypothesis that supports your claims.

P.S. The other link is to the closed thread so I am not going to respond to it.

Evasion noted.

 

[Davian]

I defined it earlier?

No, you have only asserted it, then acted like it was fact.

Where is this testable criteria that you would used to determine that the universe was "designed"?

Where is this math you says exists for those probabilities you mentioned? Any luck finding that yet?

 

[Davian]

God did not need to fine-tune the universe, the universe is fine tuned because God's purpose was mankind. The universe was planned for intelligent life and the universe being able to be discerned by intelligent life is God's proof to us. This of course is totally from a Christian's point of view.

Why the need for fine-tuned anything? Could not an all-powerful deity have life as we know it arise on the surface of Venus? Mercury? The Sun?

Why did it only arise where it appears scientifically possible to arise?

 

[Oncedeceived]

I am simply showing that your same assertions will apply to any universe.

You base this on what evidence?

Each and every universe will have a unique feature that would require a very precise arrangement of constants.

The evidence that there is more than one universe? Your evidence that they (if the existed at all) would need very precise arrangement or that the arrangements would be constant?

Even more, you haven't even shown that life was the focus of the fine tuning.

Supportive evidence of my position.

There are more black holes in the universe than there are people, so why conclude that humans were the goal?

I am always arguing the Christian worldview. Why would I defend or argue something outside of the frame of reference?

For the universe to produce a planet like Venus it requires just as much fine tuning as humans do, so why conclude that humans were the goal and not Venus?

The universe is a whole. It would seem to me, being only human after all, that I could imagine that the other planets that we are able to explore show no intelligent life. It points back to us. That is not to say that there couldn't be intelligent life out there. However, if there was, I would have to look at differently.

 

[Davian]

I guess all I can say is that it is evidence for those who can see it. If one wishes to deny it, or for those who refuse to even allow that it supports the Christian's worldview, nothing will ever be enough.

Nothing?

Have you tried using testable criteria? Objective evidence? Falsifiable hypotheses? Scientific methodology?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Why the need for fine-tuned anything? Could not a all-powerful deity have life as we know it arise on the surface of Venus? Mercury? The Sun?

Why did it only arise where where it appears scientifically possible to arise?

The fine-tuning is our way to Know that God exists.

For it to be scientifically possible is conclude that science somehow creates the reality when in fact science explores the reality. It can be known intelligently because it is mathematical in nature and man is made in God's own image.

 

[lasthero]

The fine-tuning is our way to Know that God exists.

But you could say that regardless of the situation. No matter where life popped up, you could make the argument that the universe was fine-tuned for life - because if it wasn't you wouldn't be alive to make that assertion. Even if we were somehow living on the Sun, we could still argue that the universe was fine-tuned for us to live as we do. There's no conceivable situation where life exists where that life, once it's capable of making observations, can't turn around and say that the universe was 'fine-tuned' for life.

Or could God make a universe that isn't fine-tuned for life, but has life anyway? Wouldn't that be like making a rock that's too heavy for him to lift? And even if he created such a universe, wouldn't the fact that life exists despite the impossibility of it make it a constant miracle? Wouldn't that be proof of God?