Why ... (2)

[Loudmouth]

You base this on what evidence?

The same evidence you are using. If the constants were different then the results would be different. Those results would be unique to those constants and would therefore count as being fine tuned.

Supportive evidence of my position.

Where is your supportive evidence that life was the focus?

I am always arguing the Christian worldview. Why would I defend or argue something outside of the frame of reference?

The christian worldview appears to include making empty assertions and then pretending you have presented evidence to support those assertions.

The universe is a whole. It would seem to me, being only human after all, that I could imagine that the other planets that we are able to explore show no intelligent life. It points back to us.

How does that point back to us? Earth is but one planet amongst billions in our galaxy. Our galaxy is one of billions in the solar system. So out of trillions and trillions of planets just one has intelligent life, and you somehow think that the goal of the universe was to produce life on just that one planet? That sounds like hubris to me.

 

[Oncedeceived]

When has "God did it" ever turned out to be a useful explanation?

The fact that the universe is mathematical in nature, that it is consistent and uniform allows for Science to work at all. So God did it, actually makes everything work.

There have been great discoveries by men who were Christians or religious that brought great discoveries and methodology to the field of Science. Many made their discoveries due to knowing that the universe was uniform and intelligent due to an intelligent Creator. So in fact, God Did It, has been very useful throughout history.

 

[Oncedeceived]

...you didn't really answer my question. Why did God need to fine-tune the universe to make mankind?

God's plan was for humans.

 

[Oncedeceived]

God of the gaps again? Argument from ignorance? "I can't see how the ability for critters in this world could have evolved the ability to reason so goddidit?"

Where did you get that?

Reality is not determined by the use of false dichotomies. Showing a weakness is another's worldview (straw versions or not) does not validate yours. You are wasting your time.

I didn't say it did. Yes, I am probably wasting my time.

Then present this evidence in an objectively testable, falsifiable hypothesis that supports your claims.

All evidence I provided was objectively testable and falsifiable.

I have used the Bible to show what was predicted and have used scientifically tested data to support it. If that is not enough for you then so be it.

Evasion noted.

IF I wish to ignore you, or if I find I do not want to answer for whatever that reason might be...I will tell you. In fact, I have told you. I gave you the reason I didn't answer, it is your choice to take it at face value or to question my integrity. Either way, I am an honest person. I am going to do my best to answer everything I can possibly answer and to give reason for my position.

 

[Davian]

The fine-tuning is our way to Know that God exists.

From what I gather from your posts, you believe everything is evidence for your particular deity.

For it to be scientifically possible is conclude that science somehow creates the reality when in fact science explores the reality.

I said, why did it only arise where where it appears scientifically possible to arise?

It can be known intelligently because it is mathematical in nature and man is made in God's own image.

Whatever. Yet another unfalsifiable claim.

Do you have anything of scientific significance?

 

[Oncedeceived]

The same evidence you are using. If the constants were different then the results would be different. Those results would be unique to those constants and would therefore count as being fine tuned.

Where is the evidence that there would be constants at all? What evidence do you have that the universe would be in existence if those constants were not there or different? We do know that if those constants that are in evidence are such that the slightest measure of change eliminates the universe from existing at all, let alone have different constraints and constants.

Where is your supportive evidence that life was the focus?

Other than the obvious (man is here and intelligent and not living in trees) none.

The christian worldview appears to include making empty assertions and then pretending you have presented evidence to support those assertions.

Has any of the evidence I have presented been incorrect or unsubstantiated?

How does that point back to us? Earth is but one planet amongst billions in our galaxy. Our galaxy is one of billions in the solar system. So out of trillions and trillions of planets just one has intelligent life, and you somehow think that the goal of the universe was to produce life on just that one planet? That sounds like hubris to me.

I said that we were able to observe and explore.

 

[Oncedeceived]

But you could say that regardless of the situation. No matter where life popped up, you could make the argument that the universe was fine-tuned for life - because if it wasn't you wouldn't be alive to make that assertion. Even if we were somehow living on the Sun, we could still argue that the universe was fine-tuned for us to live as we do. There's no conceivable situation where life exists where that life, once it's capable of making observations, can't turn around and say that the universe was 'fine-tuned' for life.

When you look at the universe and take any planet within this universe, it could be said that if we were on another planet the same would be true. You are completely right. However, that is within this universe and the universe has its qualities (in the Christian worldview) that make this universe fine tuned for life. Since God (in my opinion) created the universe and everything in it, He could have chosen I suppose another planet to do the same as He did here. He still could have intelligent life somewhere else in this universe for all we know.

The fine tuning is a way to show the impossibility of all of this being something that just happened. The fine tuning is such that many physicists and astronomers believe could not have just happened. In the Christian worldview this is God's way to prove Himself to mankind.

Or could God make a universe that isn't fine-tuned for life, but has life anyway? Wouldn't that be like making a rock that's too heavy for him to lift? And even if he created such a universe, wouldn't the fact that life exists despite the impossibility of it make it a constant miracle? Wouldn't that be proof of God?

I totally get what you are saying, wouldn't it be fine tuned regardless, but if the universe was just something that occurred, and something totally materialistic, there is no reason it should be as it is.[/quote]

 

[Oncedeceived]

Are you saying God fine tuned it all and still got it wrong?

Ok I'll bite. What did He do wrong?

 

[Oncedeceived]

So it was all made for us, is that why we can only live on about 1/10th of the planet without scientific assistance?
And we can not go anywhere away from the planet without scientific assistance.
Thinking about it either God got it wrong or you have got it wrong, you can guess who the smart money is on?

And that is wrong in what way?

 

[Davian]

Where did you get that?

You said, "I believe the ability to reason in truthful and meaningful ways is evidence for God."

How is that any different than an argument from ignorance? "I can't see how the ability for critters in this world could have evolved the ability to reason so goddidit?"

I didn't say it did. Yes, I am probably wasting my time.

Your continued use of a discussion tactic (ie false dichotomies) implies that you see value in them.

All evidence I provided was objectively testable and falsifiable.

How would we falsify your claim that the universe was designed? Compare it to other universes?

I have used the Bible to show what was predicted and have used scientifically tested data to support it. If that is not enough for you then so be it.

IF I wish to ignore you, or if I find I do not want to answer for whatever that reason might be...I will tell you. In fact, I have told you. I gave you the reason I didn't answer, it is your choice to take it at face value or to question my integrity. Either way, I am an honest person. I am going to do my best to answer everything I can possibly answer and to give reason for my position.

It does appear from my perspective that you do avoid certain posts of mine. I will carry the questions forward here:

Where is this testable criteria that you would use to determine that the universe was "designed"?

Where is this math you says exists for those probabilities you mentioned for the "fine-tuning" of the universe?

 

[Smidlee]

So it was all made for us, is that why we can only live on about 1/10th of the planet without scientific assistance?
And we can not go anywhere away from the planet without scientific assistance.
Thinking about it either God got it wrong or you have got it wrong, you can guess who the smart money is on?

In Forza 4 there are mountains and scenery which are impossible to reach since I can only travel near the track. That scenery was added in with the player in mind.

 

[Oncedeceived]

If God made it all for us why can we not at least live on half of it? and why the billions of planets and stars we will never even see? they are moving away from us so fast by the time we have developed enough to see them they will be well out of sight.

All of our universe is an interconnected system. Even those things that we don't understand could have an effect on the whole system. The oceans for instance. We need the oceans to breath. It supplies half of the oxygen we breath.

All the universe is connected and even the farthest away stars and planets have something to do with the way it all is.

God works in mysterious ways has got to be an understatement, the truth is God only works for some people, believers.

Well it is true that believers and unbelievers are different. God reveals Himself only to those who accept Him.

Can I ask? why will the Holy Spirit only enter those who already believe?
That's like saying, you can only fool people who want to be fooled.

The Holy Spirit is God. God does not intrude upon those who do not accept Him.

Can I ask you a question? What would cause a staunch atheist who has been a activist against God suddenly become a believer? Do you think he would want to be fooled?

 

[Loudmouth]

Where is the evidence that there would be constants at all?

How could there not be?

What evidence do you have that the universe would be in existence if those constants were not there or different?

Have you read your own posts? You are the one arguing that constants different than ours would result in a different universe.

Other than the obvious (man is here and intelligent and not living in trees) none.

Why do humans being intelligent indicate that we are the focus of the creation of the universe? Why not black holes, or the Sombrero galaxy?

Has any of the evidence I have presented been incorrect or unsubstantiated?

Accuracy has nothing to do with whether or not it is evidence of what you claim. You could accurately state that 2+2=4, but that does not mean that whatever claim follows 2+2=4 is automatically true.

I said that we were able to observe and explore.

Why does that matter?

 

[Davian]

All of our universe is an interconnected system. Even those things that we don't understand could have an effect on the whole system. The oceans for instance. We need the oceans to breath. It supplies half of the oxygen we breath.

All the universe is connected and even the farthest away stars and planets have something to do with the way it all is.



Well it is true that believers and unbelievers are different. God reveals Himself only to those who accept Him.
...

How does one differentiate the acceptance of the existence of deities from simply deceiving oneself (or being deceived) that deities exist? The latter is far more parsimonious.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Do you mean God would rather let them suffer for eternity rather than 'intrude'?

Yes.

Tragedy? bereavement? brain damage? to make money? falling back on how they were raised?

Let me give you a quote from someone that was an atheist and became a Christian.

I guess the reason that I was an atheist is the same reason that many of you are believers in God if you are. That was because I had been indoctrinated in that particular persuasion. My background, the variables that were exposed to me as a child, led me very strongly in that direction. Just as many of you believe in God because your parents believe in God and because they instilled this belief in you, I also questioned, challenged, and rejected God because that was the kind of indoctrination that I received as a child. I can remember my mother saying to me as a child something like, “Do you really believe there is an old man, floating around in the sky, blasting things into existence here upon the earth? Do you really believe that crummy looking structure on the corner could be something beautiful called ‘the church?’ Do you really believe that there is a hole in the ground that I am going to be thrown into and burned eternally if I do not live just the way some preacher thinks I ought to?” Of course, I could not conceive of these things as a child and did not know enough to realize they are not what the Bible teaches. Consequently, I came to believe that anybody who believed in God was just silly, superstitious, ignorant, and unlearned. You may wonder how it would be possible for a person coming out of this type of background and kind of learning situation to become a strong believer in God today, devoting his life to trying to help people to understand that there is a God in heaven and that the Bible is his literal and verbally inspired Word. It is the purpose of this booklet to try and point out at least some of the things that entered into my acceptance of God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible as God's Word.

An Atheist could never be religious and I say that because Atheism is not a choice, could you chose to believe in fairies?

I think many of those who were once atheists would tell you otherwise.

would your brain allow you to believe in something it is telling you is false?

Yes. It would.

you had to be conditioned to believe in a God, do you think all Muslims are Muslims because they were born thinking it made sense? they all had to be conditioned into believing it made sense.

What conditions one to believe in God? I understand when someone is brought up in a home that is either atheist or theist that their parents believe what they believe and the children are indoctrinated into that. However, we see both sides leaving. So experience supports that those raised in homes where the parents were instrumental in their belief system do take their own path.

This is getting off the thread though. So we should probably get back on track.

 

[Oncedeceived]

How could there not be?

Why would there be?

Have you read your own posts? You are the one arguing that constants different than ours would result in a different universe.

No, I am arguing that if things were changed even a small amount, it would not exist at all.

Why do humans being intelligent indicate that we are the focus of the creation of the universe? Why not black holes, or the Sombrero galaxy?

In your worldview or mine?

Accuracy has nothing to do with whether or not it is evidence of what you claim. You could accurately state that 2+2=4, but that does not mean that whatever claim follows 2+2=4 is automatically true.

So what ever I might use to support my view with a priori be dismissed by you? So I guess that makes this pretty useless. I would say that you are the one close minded.

Why does that matter?

I guess it doesn't.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

1. We do know that they don't vary, hence constants.
2. We can't assume that there are other universes or whether or not that they would have different constants. We do know that even with other universes, the constants are still not explained.
3. Variation space is something I am not understanding.

If you're claiming that the constants are fine tuned then you are saying that they could have been different. We don't know that they could have been. We don't even know, if they could have been different by how much, which constants and how many ways they might have been different. Also as you point out we don't know how many universes we're dealing with. It's between one and infinity so without knowing any of these things we can't make any rational claim about how probable or improbable the constants being what they are is.

 

[Oncedeceived]

How does one differentiate the acceptance of the existence of deities from simply deceiving oneself (or being deceived) that deities exist? The latter is far more parsimonious.

Considering the world's population has a majority of deluded or deceived individuals, the deceived are the norm. It would seem then that those who lack that illusion of God are in the minority and abnormal. Now while I don't find it too alarming to be outside the norm, I have been there many times in my life; but I rather think that it supports the belief that what God said about ingraining the belief of God in all of us holds true. All know that there is a God, some will just resist it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

If you're claiming that the constants are fine tuned then you are saying that they could have been different.

I am saying that if they were different the universe would not have existed at all.

We don't know that they could have been. We don't even know, if they could have been different by how much, which constants and how many ways they might have been different.

That is why it is called fine tuning. They have adjusted the numbers even fractionally and it proves fatal for the universe.

Also as you point out we don't know how many universes we're dealing with.

I didn't point that out. There is no evidence for other universes, even if there were other universes we could never know.

It's between one and infinity so without knowing any of these things we can't make any rational claim about how probable or improbable the constants being what they are is.

Fine tuning doesn't go away even with the multiverse hypothesis.

 

[Davian]

Considering the world's population has a majority of deluded or deceived individuals, the deceived are the norm. It would seem then that those who lack that illusion of God are in the minority and abnormal. Now while I don't find it too alarming to be outside the norm, I have been there many times in my life; but I rather think that it supports the belief that what God said about ingraining the belief of God in all of us holds true. All know that there is a God, some will just resist it.

Is this your cognitive dissonance showing? Your answer did not address my question, and you said "...those who lack that illusion of God are in the minority and abnormal", calling "God" an illusion, and putting yourself outside the norm. Are you an atheist now?

Again, how does one differentiate the acceptance of the existence of deities from simply deceiving oneself (or being deceived) that deities exist? The latter is far more parsimonious.

Oh, and post #792, if you missed it.