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Oncedeceived

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There's this big machine under a corner of France and Switzerland called the LHC. You should check it out. They actually smash particles together.

I am aware of CERN and the Large Hadron Collider. In fact, the perfect liquid that they discovered I feel is supportive the the water in Genesis. I called and talked to them about the findings and it was very interesting.


You will not present evidence for anything other than natural mechanisms. Like I have said OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER, I follow the evidence. Show me the evidence.

You keep saying that logic, mathematics and universal laws are material without giving evidence for the material used for them. You are not following the evidence.



You are projecting your own close-mindedness again. I will fully accept mechanisms other than naturalistic processes IF YOU SUPPLY EVIDENCE THAT THEY EXIST.

I want you to understand that you don't have evidence for your own position. You don't have evidence for material make up of the laws of logic, the laws of the universe, or the laws of physic, or the laws of mathematics. Your "evidence" is based on the constants and uniformity of the universe that has no material evidence.


Right, which means that you reject any evidence that contradicts it, and will not allow your beliefs to be falsifiable. This is the very definition of close-mindedness that I am talking about.

This is quite false. I might question evidence that contradicts my worldview, I might change what I thought of my interpretations of evidence or of the Bible. The only thing I don't change is that God exists and the interpretations, knowledge or my understanding can be adjusted to make new determinations on all of them.



Why would I admit something that I don't have? Sorry, but you don't get to project your flaws onto me.

Is this a common argument for the forum or just something that is thrown out there to divert the question?


I assume that nothing is absolute.

Then why are we debating the issues? If you can't determine if something is true from false, you can't claim that you are "right" and I am "wrong". It might be right or true for you that the only way to know anything is through evidence but you contradict that statement because you can't know anything if there is no true or false. It then becomes a mute point.



This is all you have to say when presented with the empirical, scientific evidence that you claimed didn't exist?

What? What did I claim that didn't exist? A universal common ancestor? There is no common ancestor anywhere to be found there. There is a theory of a universal common ancestor but none in evidence. But if we take your claim that there is no absolute then there is no absolute truth of a common ancestor.
 
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lasthero

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You are such a sweetheart! Thanks.

So my point in making this was to show that we don't know how many pieces of the puzzle we have and how many are still missing. So it may seem that this could be a person, we can't really know until more of the pieces are available. So it comes down to how much we think we have, and how do we really know?

You could literally say that about anything, though. No matter how much you know about something, there's always the chance that there's any number of things you don't know. Like, say, in a court case - no matter how much evidence one side gets, there could be a number of things that they're missing which overturn the verdict or switch things around. Should that fact keep a jury from making a decision, though?
 
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Oncedeceived

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We see order out of chaos all of the time, and it is produced by unintelligent, purposeless, and blind natural mechanisms.

Evidence?




So how do you determine which are the pieces? What features would a fossil need in order for you to accept it as being transitional between humans and a common ancestor with chimps? What shared genetic marker between humans and apes would you consider evidence of humans and chimps sharing common ancestry?

Tell me Loudmouth, what would the transitional of the non vertebrate to vertebrate look like?

Or is there any evidence that you would ever accept

For what?

So what would this evidence look like?

Its been to long since this discussion for me to remember what this was about and I don't have time to look it up. Remind me if I don't get back to this.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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God was not stymied by anything.
Of course he was - he was limited to making lung-breathers hairy. He was stymied by the concept of a non-hairy lung-breather, or a hairy gill-breather. God was limited to only creating in nested hierarchies.
 
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Oncedeceived

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How did you determine this? By what testable criteria?

When you come into a conversation one must be aware of the context of the conversation. My line of thought in this particular conversation was how does a Christian use reason and logic in their belief system. Are they just irrational as so many materialists believe? My point was not in making a claim but to show that there is a rational reason behind it.



How did you get from "designer" to your particular god of your particular religion? Anything testable there?

I am always defending the Christian God and the merits of the Christian worldview. Coming to the conclusion of a Christian God was in God's revelation to me personally. However, there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence when taken as a whole to ascertain the correctness of that being the truth.

Really? It is my understanding that the table that my monitor rests on is mostly empty space. How is that?

The empty space is not an illusion. It is real. As I am sure you are aware, the table is made of the same atoms that make up our universe. However, empty does not mean it is nothing. This vacuum of this empty space appears to be some type of energy that is immense in its attributes. This 99.9% of our universe is what keeps it all together. In the Christian worldview it is Christ that keeps this all together.

[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born [prototokos] of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities [these words in Greek refer to the hierarchical angelic powers]---all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Emphasis mine.

If the Christian worldview is correct as I claim, scientific evidence would show that indeed something or someone holds together the universe. There are numerous passages that speaks about the universe being in the hands of Christ. That at a set time this universe will:

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise (rhoizedon, a rushing roar) and the elements (stoicheion , atoms) will be dissolved with fire and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up." (2 Peter 3:10)

The theological answer merely moves the mystery one step back. That is your dilemma.

Not in the Christian worldview. We know that God has always existed. In the Bible it says the like 43 times. We know that the universe has not always existed. Something had to exist prior to the existence of the universe. In the Christian worldview it is God.

Can you choose what you believe?

I believe I can. IF I can't what does all this debate accomplish? If you can't think but what you think then nothing but what you think exists.

Ah, free will. There's a rabbit hole if I ever saw one.

If we don't have free will, does it really matter what you think or what I think?

What would it feel like if free will was an illusion?

What would it matter? If free will is an illusion, you have no better standing in your reasons than I do in mine.
 
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Oncedeceived

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The theorem is a necessary consequence when a quantity is conserved. It is not itself dependant on any law of physics - it would hold true even if there were no laws of physics. It is as true as '1 + 1 = 2' - it's fundamentally logical and non-contingent.

Simply not true:

The underlying reason why the total energy of a closed system (that is, one not interacting significantly with outside objects) is conserved is that the laws of physics are symmetric in time: they will work the same way tomorrow that they did yesterday. According to Noether’s theorem, this means that there must be some quantity that remains constant as you move forward in time, and that quantity is the energy. (Noether’s theorem also explains momentum conservation: the laws of physics are symmetric in space: they work the same way in Brisbane, Australia as in Niskayuna, New York. According to Noether’s system, this means there must be some quantity that remains constant as you move from one place to another, and that quantity is the momentum.)
So, conservation of energy is much more than turning out the lights when you’re not home. It’s built into the deep structure of the universe, and one of the most fundamental properties of physics.


http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2011/12/06/the-advent-calendar-of-physics-5/



I disagree: it really is what happens when gases are left to their own devices. No deity needed.

See above.


Yes. But when we have 99.999% of the puzzle, we're as good as there. When we have sufficient pieces to deduce the final image, we're as good as there. We will never have all the pieces, but we have enough to know what happened.

First of all we do not have 99.999% of anything. We can't possibly have that information on anything of the universe. It is in your opinion that "we" have enough to know what happened but I disagree with your opinion.

That's why our justice system is capable of confidently incarcerating murderers: we have sufficient evidence to convict them, even though we don't have total evidence.

Without sufficient evidence to begin with the murderer would not be tried. This is not remotely in the same status as the ToE anyway.


My point was more basic than that - what do you mean by "transitions in the same vein as in the past"? What do you mean by "species to species evolution"? I asked for examples because I don't actually know what it is you're asking.

All body forms have remained the same for millions and millions of years. We should see something more than a bird evolving into another species of bird for instance.

Transitional forms aren't what most people think they are, and the term is heavily misused.

I understand the terminology.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Oncedeceived,

A nested hierarchy requires two things. Common ancestry and evolution. Evolution alone will not produce nested hierarchies. You need common ancestry as well. There is no reason why separately created kinds would fall into a nested hierarchy, and no amount of subsequent evolution will cause these kinds to fall into a nested hierarchy.

Evolution is the way in which life forms have commonality. A common design runs through the entire process. I am not claiming that common ancestry is not true, I don't know. I don't think it is as clear cut as you and materialists like to think but regardless of that you do not have evidence for much of what you claim, and one such claim is the claim of a universal common ancestor. Do you see what I am getting at? Your claim is that you don't believe anything that can not be empirically proven and the universal common ancestor can not be empirically proven.
 
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lasthero

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All body forms have remained the same for millions and millions of years. We should see something more than a bird evolving into another species of bird for instance.

If a bird evolved into something more than a bird, that would invalidate evolution. Changes aren't supposed to occur like that.
 
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Oncedeceived

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The main problem with the 'common design' explanation of nested hierarchies is that there's no reason a designer couldn't pick-and-mix its designs. Yet, it doggedly and irrationally sticks to nested hierarchies of features. Why give whales lungs and hair? If ever there's a time to mix-and-match your features, swap the whale's lung for gills!

It seems to me rather irrational for an intelligent being, far more intelligent than we are to pick-and-mix designs. The universe is a uniquely complete interwoven complexity that we have barely imagined. The purpose of all things work together to make the universe a living changing entity all the while keeping it all together by the uniformity within the design.

I think it somewhat presumptuous to claim that what ever we as humans can even remotely reason that God would not design in such a way. It would seem to me that for a land animal to evolve into a ocean dweller far more irrational. The problems for an animal to change almost everything to do so makes the survival aspect seem questionable.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Because explanations come from our brains.

We invent equations to describe regularities we find in nature, they're hardly perfect and most of these equations have exceptions when we look at different parts of nature. For example Ohm's Law works perfectly everywhere, except for superconductors.

You find that man made equations describe regularities we find in nature. It is an exceptional coincidence that the universe could be described by a man made construct that just happens to work in an infinite way. Not only does it work in an infinite way, we live in a finite universe. How does one explain the concept of infinite in a finite universe? Another coincidence?
 
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lasthero

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How is it suppose to occur?

Slow, incremental changes over a vast amount of time. Every organism changes slightly from generation to generation, over time these changes accumulate, which leads to speciation. Changes become more and more drastic as time goes on.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Slow, incremental changes over a vast amount of time. Every organism changes slightly from generation to generation, over time these changes accumulate, which leads to speciation. Changes become more and more drastic as time goes on.

Exactly, so how does that counter what I said? There have been millions and millions of years and there have been no changes. We should by now see some evidence of something beyond species to species evolution if it happened in the past, why not now? By now I mean in the last millions and millions of years.
 
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Kellyvee

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Exactly, so how does that counter what I said? There have been millions and millions of years and there have been no changes. We should by now see some evidence of something beyond species to species evolution if it happened in the past, why not now? By now I mean in the last millions and millions of years.
Are you exactly like your mother in every detail? no? why not? because you had a father who is different from your mother, the combination of both of them make you different from them, one might have blond hair the other dark,
now you have hair different from both of them, you are unique just like everyone else.

We have changed in the last 4 or 5 hundred years, we are much taller and bigger now, better diet means bigger people,
5 hundred years ago 6ft was huge, Henry the VIII was 6' 2'' tall, (when the people around him averages 5' 6'' or 7'')
he was a giant because he had grown up eating only the very best food.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Simply not true:

The underlying reason why the total energy of a closed system (that is, one not interacting significantly with outside objects) is conserved is that the laws of physics are symmetric in time: they will work the same way tomorrow that they did yesterday. According to Noether’s theorem, this means that there must be some quantity that remains constant as you move forward in time, and that quantity is the energy. (Noether’s theorem also explains momentum conservation: the laws of physics are symmetric in space: they work the same way in Brisbane, Australia as in Niskayuna, New York. According to Noether’s system, this means there must be some quantity that remains constant as you move from one place to another, and that quantity is the momentum.)
So, conservation of energy is much more than turning out the lights when you’re not home. It’s built into the deep structure of the universe, and one of the most fundamental properties of physics.


http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2011/12/06/the-advent-calendar-of-physics-5/
That doesn't refute my point. Noether's theorem holds true even if the action of physical systems don't have any differentiable symmetry. The theorem says that such systems have conservation laws, not that our universe is such a system.

See above.
Err... why? The above doesn't relate at all to what I said :scratch:.

First of all we do not have 99.999% of anything. We can't possibly have that information on anything of the universe. It is in your opinion that "we" have enough to know what happened but I disagree with your opinion.
No. My opinion was that IF we have 99.999% of the puzzle, then we basically know what's going on. It is a separate matter to know THAT we have 99.999% of the puzzle.

Without sufficient evidence to begin with the murderer would not be tried. This is not remotely in the same status as the ToE anyway.
Which wasn't my point. My point is that not having 100% of the evidence doesn't preclude us from making decisions. If we have 90%, 95%, 99%, we can still come to conclusions: we can bring the murderer to trial, we can conclude the veracity of evolution, etc.

My point is that it is incorrect to insinuate that we must have absolutely every iota of possible evidence before we can come to conclusions, and that if we have a gnat's breath less than 100% then we cannot come to any conclusions.

Key phrase: "The fact that we don't have every fossil in existence means that we have only pieces of the puzzle. Which means we don't have the entire picture of life and its history", implying that not having every fossil in existence is somehow to our detriment. What matters is the fossils we do have, not the fossils we don't. We have millions of fossils overflowing museum drawers, and they all without exception point to the features predicted by evolution (correct distribution in strata, correct geographical distribution, correct radiometric dates, correct anatomical and skeletal changes, etc).

All body forms have remained the same for millions and millions of years. We should see something more than a bird evolving into another species of bird for instance.
Actually, the extinction of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago left open huge ecological niches, and we see a flurry of new forms and features develop to fill that gap. Flowering plants themselves are only 140 million years old - this means that something as mundane as fruit is relatively new, geologically speaking.

However, what makes you think we should see something more than a bird evolve into another species of bird? Evolution demands that birds only evolve new bird species. If a bird species ever evolved into a mammal species, then evolution would be disproven at is most fundamental level.

I still don't know what you expect evolution to produce. I still need an answer to that most basic of questions: What do you mean by "transitions in the same vein as in the past"? What do you mean by "species to species evolution"? What do you mean by "we should see something more"? I ask for examples because I don't actually know what it is you're asking.

I understand the terminology.
Then you understand that 'transitional species' is not a proper piece of evolutionary jargon. The term would apply to all individuals of all species. I am a transition from my mother to my daughter, as is my mother before her, and her mother before her. Each woman holds hands with her daughter and her mother, going all the way back through the generations. Each individual looks basically the same as their immediate ancestor and immediate descendant, but if we go back tens of thousands of generations, we see a smooth change.

There is no 'transitional' form, as there is no transition.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Who ever said there was anything beyond species to species evolution?

I mean like the Theropod to bird evolution or for instance the land mammal transitional to ocean dweller. There should be many incidences of life forms changing throughout the millions of millions of years in the past to present era.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I mean like the Theropod to bird evolution or for instance the land mammal transitional to ocean dweller. There should be many incidences of life forms changing throughout the millions of millions of years in the past to present era.
whale-transition.gif


:D
1-s2.0-S0169534711003570-gr1.jpg

:D
104Eumaniraptora.jpg
 
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lasthero

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I mean like the Theropod to bird evolution or for instance the land mammal transitional to ocean dweller.

Even that's just species to species evolution. No theropod ever gave birth to a fully formed bird, and not land mammal changed into a fully formed ocean dweller. There were numerous slow, incremental changes in between. Species to species.

whale_evo.jpg




. There should be many incidences of life forms changing throughout the millions of millions of years in the past to present era.

There are many incidences of life forms changing. There are many incidences of lifeforms changing today.
 
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Davian

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When you come into a conversation one must be aware of the context of the conversation. My line of thought in this particular conversation was how does a Christian use reason and logic in their belief system. Are they just irrational as so many materialists believe? My point was not in making a claim but to show that there is a rational reason behind it.
I know the context that you are working in, but be aware that you have (by your own free will :)) chosen to post this in a physical sciences subforum, and not Exploring Christianity.

So again, how did you determine that the universe is designed? By what testable criteria?

I am always defending the Christian God and the merits of the Christian worldview. Coming to the conclusion of a Christian God was in God's revelation to me personally. However, there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence when taken as a whole to ascertain the correctness of that being the truth.
And there is a great deal of scientific evidence that must be taken as a whole, evidence that does not show gods to be of any significance. Take the example of the speed of the hypothetical graviton we discussed earlier.

The empty space is not an illusion. It is real.

That the table is solid is the illusion, one of those illusions that are common occurrence in our universe. The appearance of design is not necessarily evidence of design.

As I am sure you are aware, the table is made of the same atoms that make up our universe. However, empty does not mean it is nothing. This vacuum of this empty space appears to be some type of energy that is immense in its attributes. This 99.9% of our universe is what keeps it all together. In the Christian worldview it is Christ that keeps this all together.

[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born [prototokos] of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities [these words in Greek refer to the hierarchical angelic powers]---all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Emphasis mine.
No problem. I have Fred.

If the Christian worldview is correct as I claim, scientific evidence would show that indeed something or someone holds together the universe. There are numerous passages that speaks about the universe being in the hands of Christ. That at a set time this universe will:

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise (rhoizedon, a rushing roar) and the elements (stoicheion , atoms) will be dissolved with fire and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up." (2 Peter 3:10)
Bible passages do not count as evidence.

So where is this "scientific evidence would show that indeed something or someone holds together the universe"?

Can you present it in the form of a testable, falsifiable hypothesis?
Not in the Christian worldview. We know that God has always existed. In the Bible it says the like 43 times. We know that the universe has not always existed. Something had to exist prior to the existence of the universe. In the Christian worldview it is God.
Yes in the Christian worldview. What the bible says is irrelevant. Define "God" in some measurable, testable way.

How did you determine that something existed prior to the existence of the universe? How do we know that question even makes sense?

I believe I can. IF I can't what does all this debate accomplish? If you can't think but what you think then nothing but what you think exists.
Can you choose to not believe in deities for a week? Or a different one?

If we don't have free will, does it really matter what you think or what I think?
I am not saying that we don't have some form of free will.

What would it matter? If free will is an illusion, you have no better standing in your reasons than I do in mine.
Can you do me the courtesy of answering my question before adding another?

What would it feel like if free will was an illusion?
 
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