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pgp_protector

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We couldn't even know if we found every fossil, even if we somehow did it - it's not like we have a pre-established idea of how many species lived on this planet, there's no hard goal to reach and no way to tell when we'd be done. It's like collecting cards when you don't have any idea how many cards you need for a complete - no matter how many you get, there could always be more. Add on to that, the fact that many species rarely, if ever, fossilize, because of the way their bones are designed - bats, for instance.

But I don't think that's a fair analogy, somewhat. Just because you don't have all the pieces of a puzzle, doesn't mean we can't make judgments on the picture. I mean, look at this.

incomplete-jigsaw-puzzle-us-dollar-image.jpg


Yes, it's incomplete, but do I really need all the pieces in order to tell that it's a dollar bill?

It's a Duck.
The box says it's a Duck so it's a Duck.
 
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Kellyvee

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I see a lot of side stepping here. I feel that you know it appears designed but you will not allow that it is anything other than natural.
OK let's say it appears to be designed now what? who or what designed it and why and for whom was it designed?
how on earth can we even begin to answer those questions, where do we start? do we guess or make something up?
or do we just not worry about it and assume it's natural until we have something more to go on?
 
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Loudmouth

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What evidence of these physical material particles do you have?

There's this big machine under a corner of France and Switzerland called the LHC. You should check it out. They actually smash particles together.

I see a lot of side stepping here. I feel that you know it appears designed but you will not allow that it is anything other than natural.

You will not present evidence for anything other than natural mechanisms. Like I have said OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER, I follow the evidence. Show me the evidence.

Your worldview will not allow for anything other than naturalistic processes.

You are projecting your own close-mindedness again. I will fully accept mechanisms other than naturalistic processes IF YOU SUPPLY EVIDENCE THAT THEY EXIST.

However, in a Christian worldview, we see design and know that God designed it. That is our pre-suppositional view.

Right, which means that you reject any evidence that contradicts it, and will not allow your beliefs to be falsifiable. This is the very definition of close-mindedness that I am talking about.

You just won't admit that you hold an a priori pre-suppositional view.

Why would I admit something that I don't have? Sorry, but you don't get to project your flaws onto me.


So you assume natural laws must be absolute.

I assume that nothing is absolute.



This is all you have to say when presented with the empirical, scientific evidence that you claimed didn't exist?
 
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Loudmouth

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Oncedeceived,

A nested hierarchy requires two things. Common ancestry and evolution. Evolution alone will not produce nested hierarchies. You need common ancestry as well. There is no reason why separately created kinds would fall into a nested hierarchy, and no amount of subsequent evolution will cause these kinds to fall into a nested hierarchy.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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This is circular, the theorem is actually dependent upon the existing laws of physics.
The theorem is a necessary consequence when a quantity is conserved. It is not itself dependant on any law of physics - it would hold true even if there were no laws of physics. It is as true as '1 + 1 = 2' - it's fundamentally logical and non-contingent.

If anything it would seem it is falling into disorder and chaos, however, it is a fixed constant universe that remains the foundation.
Why?

I guess that is in the eye of the beholder.
I disagree: it really is what happens when gases are left to their own devices. No deity needed.

Why would he be arguing against something I never claimed? That would be rather irrational.
I have no idea. My point is that he is asking what genetic markers would convince you of common ancestry, not what genetic markers would disprove common design. Complaining that the answer to his question doesn't disprove common design is moot, as that wasn't his question.

I am pointing out that he is taking his "evidence" on authority. We all do. The fact that we don't have every fossil in existence means that we have only pieces of the puzzle. Which means we don't have the entire picture of life and its history.
Yes. But when we have 99.999% of the puzzle, we're as good as there. When we have sufficient pieces to deduce the final image, we're as good as there. We will never have all the pieces, but we have enough to know what happened.

That's why our justice system is capable of confidently incarcerating murderers: we have sufficient evidence to convict them, even though we don't have total evidence.

No, but there should be evidence of transitions in the same vein as in the past. We I would think should see some evidence in life forms today of more than just species to species evolution. Since we don't it can be shown that evidence does not supply the necessary information to conclude certainty to some claims made in ToE.
My point was more basic than that - what do you mean by "transitions in the same vein as in the past"? What do you mean by "species to species evolution"? I asked for examples because I don't actually know what it is you're asking.

Transitional forms aren't what most people think they are, and the term is heavily misused.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Oncedeceived,

A nested hierarchy requires two things. Common ancestry and evolution. Evolution alone will not produce nested hierarchies. You need common ancestry as well. There is no reason why separately created kinds would fall into a nested hierarchy, and no amount of subsequent evolution will cause these kinds to fall into a nested hierarchy.
The main problem with the 'common design' explanation of nested hierarchies is that there's no reason a designer couldn't pick-and-mix its designs. Yet, it doggedly and irrationally sticks to nested hierarchies of features. Why give whales lungs and hair? If ever there's a time to mix-and-match your features, swap the whale's lung for gills!
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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So mathematics rules have come from our brains? I wonder how you explain then how a universe that was formed long before man came on the scene is explained perfectly by mathematics?
Because explanations come from our brains.
It seems to me that mathematics were a concept that had everything to do with the universe from the beginning.

If mathematics are a man made representation of the concept of numbers/logic how would that man made representation describe the universe so perfectly? Why does the universe reflect the mathematical equations that mankind imagined?
We invent equations to describe regularities we find in nature, they're hardly perfect and most of these equations have exceptions when we look at different parts of nature. For example Ohm's Law works perfectly everywhere, except for superconductors.
 
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EternalDragon

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The main problem with the 'common design' explanation of nested hierarchies is that there's no reason a designer couldn't pick-and-mix its designs. Yet, it doggedly and irrationally sticks to nested hierarchies of features. Why give whales lungs and hair? If ever there's a time to mix-and-match your features, swap the whale's lung for gills!

Perhaps gills on such a large creature would not be efficient? Ever think of that?

Size also matters when it comes to breathing underwater. The surface area to volume ratio falls as animals get bigger. Tiny aquatic creatures can get enough oxygen through their skin; bigger ones need intricate gills to increase their surface area.

Short Sharp Science: Why whales don't have gills
 
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StormanNorman

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Perhaps gills on such a large creature would not be efficient? Ever think of that?

Size also matters when it comes to breathing underwater. The surface area to volume ratio falls as animals get bigger. Tiny aquatic creatures can get enough oxygen through their skin; bigger ones need intricate gills to increase their surface area.

Short Sharp Science: Why whales don't have gills

And that certainly explains why Maui's dolphin which weighs about 120 lbs have lungs and why the great white shark which can weigh 5,000 lbs have gills.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Perhaps gills on such a large creature would not be efficient? Ever think of that?
Yes, but an omnipotent God surely wouldn't be stymied by such a simple problem - just make bigger or better gills. If this were truly the reason, we should see a sharp cut-off in size above which we only see lung-breathing cetaceans and below which we only see water-breathing fish. We don't - we see tiny cetaceans and huge fish(esque).

You're right (or rather, the article's right), gills become less efficient on larger creatures, but this doesn't take away from the point that whales contain the indelible mark of a terrestrial mammalian ancestor: lungs, nostrils, vertically oscillating spine (whales swim like a cheater runs, unlike fish, whose spines oscillate horizontally), middle-ear bones, a pelvis, even hair of all things.
 
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Davian

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Perhaps gills on such a large creature would not be efficient? Ever think of that?

Size also matters when it comes to breathing underwater. The surface area to volume ratio falls as animals get bigger. Tiny aquatic creatures can get enough oxygen through their skin; bigger ones need intricate gills to increase their surface area.

Short Sharp Science: Why whales don't have gills

The article starts with "Like pretty much everything on the list, it's not an evolutionary mistake at all - though to be fair, I don't think the list was intended to be taken too seriously."

I'll add my own to the list:

If whales had gills, they wouldn't need to come up for air, making them too hard to catch by the whalers of that time. Obvious design. Thereforethegodofthebibledidit.

Amirite?
 
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pgp_protector

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Oncedeceived

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But you aren't giving us a complicated series of events. You are giving us one of the least complicated events, as in a puff of smoke and suddenly appears a species.

Where in any of my posts have I ever in anyway implied that a species suddenly appears out of a puff of smoke? This is absurd.


The evidence indicates that they did evolve from a common ancestor. Kinds should be easy to define since they don't share common ancestry.

They could very well share a common ancestry, I don't know. I don't really care. The point is that it is a common design in which all living forms are related. In fact, there were many components that would have been able to be used and in a random non-intelligent process it would seem more likely that some of the other elements available could have been utilized rather than the fixed ones we see in all life forms. It makes more sense from a design point of view that this is the case.




You have evidence to support such an event may have occurred. You however have no evidence of the universal common ancestor. The evidence can be viewed as common ancestry and it may even be the case. One can assume based on a naturalistic worldview that this common ancestry is:

1. Created using only certain elements available while there was a multitude of equally available ones suitable for life.

2. That only common decent alone explains the fact that life is common in design.

3. That there is no other reason but for common decent for life forms to be grouped in a nested hierarchy.

Considering these three (I hope agreeable statements) we look at the presuppositions that must be made to conclude that these statements reflect the truth.

1. We must conclude a priori that life could have only come into existence from a natural cause. We need an a priori presupposition to make this statement. There is no reason to believe by observation that a common ancestor even ever existed. How do we actually "know" that there was anything prior to the earliest life forms that we see from the fossil evidence we have?

2. Evidence may support the concept of common decent but the concept itself is based on certain presuppositions. The first is that common decent is the only possible way to explain the evidence. Have we considered all possible causes? When we look at Epigenesis we see new discoveries that may challenge the nested hierarchy. Horizontal transfer and other perhaps unknown factors could be found that would cause this system to either be revised by the new information or be completely renewed, which happens in science as it did with the tree of life.

In using the nest hierarchy one must also look at those non-nested trees as well. It can not be said that all living organisms fit into nested trees.

3. If it is true that only common decent explains the nested hierarchy. We must presuppose that there is no other explanation and without knowing all possible causes we can't say with total certainty that there would be no other cause. If common decent explains nested hierarchy we would assume that there would be no inconsistencies or anomalies if the decent is fixed. If true, we should see molecular evidence to substantiate the system but actually one must invoke molecular clocks, which in themselves are a problem.



I do have evidence for a universal common ancestor for all life:

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1

You have evidence that when presupposing certain aspects can support a universal common ancestor.

You can not describe for me a shared genetic marker or fossil that would change your mind. You can not tell me how common design is falsifiable.

Change my mind about what exactly?

If it could be shown that life was totally random and without limits to design, it would falsify design.
 
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