Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

[DavidPT]

Why do you always refuse to directly answer questions posed to you?


Very true.
Does your NHNE have death , pain etc etc ....in it?


If yes then it is a part of the old order and not the new order according to the word.

Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

But why are you only using Revelation 21-22? That's not the only Scripture that speaks of the NHNE. What about Isaiah 65 and 66? Does any of that have death in it? In my Bible it indicates it does, and you then tell me that if it does it is a part of the old order and not the new order.

And BTW, why don't you ever answer questions posed to you as well? I'm pretty certain I asked about your NHNE and dust being the serpent's meat. I don't see where you answered that.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Verse 24 is obviously taking place during verse 22 and that verse 24 involves death. It also contradicts Isaiah 65:17 if we take that verse literally during when Isaiah 66:24 is meaning---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind---because what they are looking at in verse 24 is something that initially took place during the former, and that Isaiah 65:17 says the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Why is it still coming in mind in Isaiah 66:24 then? Maybe because the NHNE are a process and until the GWTJ is finished first, the NHNE are not yet at the state where Isaiah 65:17 will be literally true involving this---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[DavidPT]

Exactly! This really shows how flawed the Premil perspective is. They act like nothing changed after Christ's death and resurrection. That is insane and completely false! They act as if the preaching of the gospel had no impact on the world. It's sad.

None of that is because satan was allegedly bound, though. That was going to happen regardless, the gospel spreading to the nations. And it did and has happened, but not because satan is allegedly bound. Amils try to act like, unless satan has been bound, the preaching of the gospel would have had no impact on the world whatsoever.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Does your NHNE have the serpent no longer eating dust? The NHNE in Isaiah 65 has him still doing that. But how could he still be doing that if he is already being tormented in the LOF at this point? The only thing I can figure out, the NHNE are a process that begins with the 2nd coming, then once the GWTJ is finished, the end result is finally accomplished. I don't know what else to conclude since I am yet to be convinced of Amil and that I am convinced that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming.

Show me the scripture which teaches that the NHNE comes about as part of a long process rather than as the result of the burning up and renewing of the NHNE as Amils believe is taught in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Terrible hermeneutics or not, clearly the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming. That is a problem for Amils if Premil is the correct position and that Amil isn't.

And, obviously, it's a problem for Premils if Amil is the correct position and Premil isn't. You have a knack for stating the obvious sometimes, David. But, that's okay. At least it's true.

Assuming this scenario, are Amils then going to start arguing that the NHNE don't begin with the 2nd coming after all?

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


This passage is involving the NHNE. Verse 25---and dust shall be the serpent's meat---is meaning during this same period. This is obviously reminding us of the following.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Obviously---and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life---is meaning up until he is cast into the LOF. He wouldn't still be doing that once he is cast into the LOF, and that Isaiah 65:25 has him still doing that when the wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock.

If Isaiah 65:25 is talking about the same thing as Genesis 3:14, then what do you make of this verse:

Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

You are talking about one of the former things (the serpent eating dust) still being remembered after the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, which contradicts Isaiah 65:17.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

None of that is because satan was allegedly bound, though. That was going to happen regardless, the gospel spreading to the nations. And it did and has happened, but not because satan is allegedly bound. Amils try to act like, unless satan has been bound, the preaching of the gospel would have had no impact on the world whatsoever.

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more. Your ignorance regarding Satan is truly stunning.

Have you never read these passages;

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Do you think what is described above was unnecessary in order for the gospel to successfully be preached throughout the world which has led to many millions of people being set free from their fear of death? You know that Christ now has the key of death, right (Rev 1:18)? You're basically trying to tell me that Christ did not need to "break the power of him who holds the power of death", the devil, in order for the gospel to successfully spread throughout the world. Really? I couldn't disagree more.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Did Jesus fail to destroy the devil's work as He came to do? Did Jesus not have to "destroy the devil's work" in order for the gospel to be successfully preached throughout the world which has led to many millions of people being set free from their fear of death and gaining the hope of eternal life? Do you even know what this is referring to when it refers to "the devil's work"? Let me give you a hint. It's partly referring to what is described in the previous passage I quoted.

Amils associate Satan's binding with passages like these and others. And you're trying to tell us that what is described in these passages did not make any difference as it relates to the gospel spreading to the world? I couldn't disagree more.

We also believe that the Holy Spirit dwelling in believers contributes to the binding of Satan as well. Would you try to tell me that the gospel could be preached just as successfully to the world even without those who preach the gospel doing so through the power of the Holy Spirit? if so, I couldn't disagree more.

You proved with your post that you do not understand the difference between New Testament and Old Testament times as it relates to Satan and the difference between what he was able to do in OT times compared to NT times. Christians should not be ignorant about that.

 

[jeffweedaman]

But why are you only using Revelation 21-22? That's not the only Scripture that speaks of the NHNE. What about Isaiah 65 and 66? Does any of that have death in it? In my Bible it indicates it does, and you then tell me that if it does it is a part of the old order and not the new order.

Does scripture contradict itself?
Embrace the New.
Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

 

[keras]

Scripture never teaches that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future.

But it can and has happened in the past, as Lazarus shows.
Revelation 20:4 doesn't even infer immortality for thsoe resurrected martyrs. They CAN die again, as Lazarus did, but their second death cannot hold them. As Martha said: I know Lazarus will rise again on the Last Day. At the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

Paul did not at all say that only some who are in Christ will be resurrected when He comes. He said they ALL will be. You deny clear, straightforward scripture.

Yes; ALL those whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will be raised to Eternal life. At the GWT Judgment.
But when Jesus Returns, it will be only the GT martyrs, raised to mortal life. Revelation 20:4-5
This undeniable scriptural fact destroys AMill. Tough!

Where do you think the bodily resurrection of those who become saved during the thousand years is referenced in Revelation 20? Or anywhere else in scripture for that matter?

They will be included with all the dead, excepting the GT Martyrs, and they 'sleep' in their graves, just as David, Job and every dead person does, until raised at the GWT. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[keras]

Exactly! This really shows how flawed the Premil perspective is. They act like nothing changed after Christ's death and resurrection. That is insane and completely false! They act as if the preaching of the gospel had no impact on the world. It's sad.

This horrible comment is actually libelous.
Your attempts to denigrate and ridicule those who challenge your beliefs, is very telling as to why AMill believers must attack rather than refute.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

But it can and has happened in the past, as Lazarus shows.

Do you think this is a strong argument? Not even close. I'm talking about the future here. There is no scripture anywhere which teaches that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future. Period.

Yes; ALL those whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will be raised to Eternal life. At the GWT Judgment.
But when Jesus Returns, it will be only the GT martyrs, raised to mortal life. Revelation 20:4-5
This undeniable scriptural fact destroys AMill. Tough!

So, you don't accept what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 then. Your false interpretation of Revelation 20:4-5 destroys nothing except for your credibility.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This horrible comment is actually libelous.
Your attempts to denigrate and ridicule those who challenge your beliefs, is very telling as to why AMill believers must attack rather than refute.

You make worse comments in every post you make. You're being hypocritical here. No one denigrates and ridicules other poster's beliefs more than you do. Just ignore me then if you don't like what I have to say. I'm not going to stop making comments like that because they're true. Did you even read the posts that I was basing my comments on? I'm only going by what Premils are saying and not just making things up.

 

[DavidPT]

If Isaiah 65:25 is talking about the same thing as Genesis 3:14, then what do you make of this verse:

Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

You are talking about one of the former things (the serpent eating dust) still being remembered after the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, which contradicts Isaiah 65:17.

Exactly. That is my point. Which is why I also brought up in this thread Isaiah 66:22 and verse 24.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


And they shall go forth. When? During the time verse 22 is meaning. To do what? To look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Him. When did they do that, transgress against Him? During when verse 22 is meaning? Or before when verse 22 is meaning? I think the following makes it clear that they transgressed against Him before when verse 22 is meaning.

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

And what does this all add up to? That they are remembering the former, thus it is still coming into mind, by them going forth and looking upon this during the NHNE even though Isaiah 65:17 says this in regards to the NHNE---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


How does one explain that contradiction? Maybe it's not a contradiction at all if the NHNE are a process that isn't fully finished in the beginning of it, but a thousand years and a little season later, followed by the GWTJ, it is then in it's finished state. Therefore, Isaiah 66:24 is meaning before it's in it's finished state, and that Isaiah 65:17--and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind---is meaning after it's in it's finished state, and that in Isaiah 65:17 that part is parenthetical(and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind), so to speak.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Exactly. That is my point. Which is why I also brought up in this thread Isaiah 66:22 and verse 24.

My point was that your interpretation of Isaiah 65:25 contradicts Isaiah 65:17, so you saying that is your point can't be correct. You clearly missed my point or else you wouldn't be agreeing with it.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


And they shall go forth. When? During the time verse 22 is meaning. To do what? To look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Him. When did they do that, transgress against Him? During when verse 22 is meaning? Or before when verse 22 is meaning? I think the following makes it clear that they transgressed against Him before when verse 22 is meaning.

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

It's obvious that they would transgressed against Him before that because of the fact that they're dead. It would be hard for them to transgress against Him while they're dead.

And what does this all add up to? That they are remembering the former, thus it is still coming into mind, by them going forth and looking upon this during the NHNE even though Isaiah 65:17 says this in regards to the NHNE---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

You say they are remembering the former. Why would you say that when it clearly contradicts verse 17? Are you okay with interpreting a verse in such a way that it contradicts another verse?

How does one explain that contradiction? Maybe it's not a contradiction at all if the NHNE are a process that isn't fully finished in the beginning of it, but a thousand years and a little season later, followed by the GWTJ, it is then in it's finished state.

Maybe it's not a contradiction? Is your view of God's word such that you think there may be contradictions within it? Please tell me that is not the case even though you're coming across that way with what you said here.

Therefore, Isaiah 66:24 is meaning before it's in it's finished state, and that Isaiah 65:17--and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind---is meaning after it's in it's finished state, and that in Isaiah 65:17 that part is parenthetical(and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind), so to speak.

You know this is ironic, right? You trying to tell me that Isaiah 65:17 contains a parenthetical statement when you insist that can't be the case when it comes to Daniel 7:12?

Anyway, there's not even a hint that the verse is a parenthetical verse. What you're missing here is that Isaiah described eternity in a way that his readers could understand since they had no concept of eternity back then like we do now because of having the New Testament. He was not being literal when he wrote about looking upon the dead carcasses of unbelievers. Why in the world would God literally have us looking upon dead carcasses? What purpose could that possibly serve other than freaking us out and causing us suffering?

No, it's a figurative way of showing the difference between the saved and the lost at that point. It says about the unbelievers: "their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched". What do you think that means? Do you think that is that talking about their dead bodies existing forever? That makes no sense. It must be talking about them being in eternal torment in a figurative way since it makes no sense to say something like that in relation to dead bodies. It has to be talking about them figuratively after they have been cast into the lake of fire. It is at that point that "their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched".

Think about this. Do you really think there's going to be millions or billions of dead bodies just laying there on the new earth for 1000 years? Interpreting that literally makes no sense.

It makes much more sense to see Isaiah as speaking figuratively than to resort to trying to say that Isaiah 65:17 is a parenthetical verse when there is no support for that idea at all.

The idea that the new heavens and new earth come about as a result of a long process simply cannot be supported by scripture. Instead, scripture indicates that the way the new heavens and new earth will come about is by God burning them up and recreating and renewing them.

 

[keras]

Do you think this is a strong argument? Not even close. I'm talking about the future here. There is no scripture anywhere which teaches that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future. Period.

Yes I do. The raising of Lazarus set a scriptural precedent.
Revelation 20:4-5 teaches that the GT martyrs will be raised back into mortal bodies, as it will be possible for them to die again. Naturally or by accident.
You just fail to read or understand those verses, as they blow your AMill notions out of the picture.

So, you don't accept what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 then

More rude accusations.
But I DO: ALL of the dead people of God, will be raised at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

You make worse comments in every post you make. You're being hypocritical here. No one denigrates and ridicules other poster's beliefs more than you do.

If I see posts that blatantly promote false teachings, such as we are in the Millennium now, Jesus rules the world now, Satan is bound now, then I refute them with scriptural proofs.
If you call that 'denigration and ridicule'; that is your opinion.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes I do. The raising of Lazarus set a scriptural precedent.
Revelation 20:4-5 teaches that the GT martyrs will be raised back into mortal bodies, as it will be possible for them to die again. Naturally or by accident.
You just fail to read or understand those verses, as they blow your AMill notions out of the picture.

The raising of Lazarus had absolutely nothing to do with the future resurrection of the dead and you know it, as does everyone else here. That connection is not made in scripture. It only comes from your imagination and from doctrinal bias.

More rude accusations.

Spare me. You have made more rude accusations on this forum than anyone else, so you have no room to talk about that.

But I DO: ALL of the dead people of God, will be raised at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

That isn't what you believe, though. You have some dead people of God being raised 1000+ years before that, so you don't have ALL of the dead people of God being raised at the GWTJ.

How do your beliefs fit with what Jesus taught about the future resurrection of the dead?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus indicated that there is only one future hour/time/event when all of the dead will be raised, but you believe there are two future hours/times/events when the dead will be raised, thereby contradicting what Jesus taught. Why would you want to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts other scripture?

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus indicated that there is only one future hour/time/event when all of the dead will be raised, but you believe there are two future hours/times/events when the dead will be raised, thereby contradicting what Jesus taught. Why would you want to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts other scripture?

As to you trying to help Keras see that he is coming to some absurd conclusions involving some of this, I'm pretty much with you up until what I quoted by you above. You obviously agree that Scripture interprets Scripture, but when one does that with the verses below, now all of a sudden Scripture interpreting Scripture is not such a good idea after all.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Your focus is on this hour and in your mind all of this has to occur during this same hour. In Revelation 20 it paints a different picture, though. There is no resurrection event recorded in Revelation 20 that is involving those that have done good, and those that have done bad, being raised the same hour. The following verse below involves 2 resurrection events. These events aren't taking place during the same hour, where you at least agree with that. But even so, the way you try and get around some of this, the first resurrection is not a bodily resurrection event like what is recorded in John 5:29 concerning the resurrection of life, that it's meaning something entirely different altogether.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those who have part in the first resurrection don't need to live again after the thousand years are finished. They already do that when they take part in the first resurrection.

As concerning this---But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished--nowhere does that text say any of them too are blessed and holy. Nowhere does that text say any of them too, that the 2nd death has no power over them. Therefore, this resurrection event involving the rest of the dead does not also involve anyone who has part in the first resurrection, thus, though two resurrection events are recorded in Revelation 20:5, neither of those events agree with what is recorded in John 5:28-29 if this hour is supposed to be meaning the same hour.

But if the same hour is not meant, concerning what is recorded in John 5:28-29, in that case both resurrection events recorded in Revelation 20:5 can agree with what is recorded in John 5:28-29, because when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years, this is meaning the resurrection of damnation, and that the first resurrection is meaning the resurrection of life.

 

[Zao is life]

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more. Your ignorance regarding Satan is truly stunning.

Have you never read these passages;

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Do you think what is described above was unnecessary in order for the gospel to successfully be preached throughout the world which has led to many millions of people being set free from their fear of death? You know that Christ now has the key of death, right (Rev 1:18)? You're basically trying to tell me that Christ did not need to "break the power of him who holds the power of death", the devil, in order for the gospel to successfully spread throughout the world. Really? I couldn't disagree more.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Did Jesus fail to destroy the devil's work as He came to do? Did Jesus not have to "destroy the devil's work" in order for the gospel to be successfully preached throughout the world which has led to many millions of people being set free from their fear of death and gaining the hope of eternal life? Do you even know what this is referring to when it refers to "the devil's work"? Let me give you a hint. It's partly referring to what is described in the previous passage I quoted.

Amils associate Satan's binding with passages like these and others. And you're trying to tell us that what is described in these passages did not make any difference as it relates to the gospel spreading to the world? I couldn't disagree more.

We also believe that the Holy Spirit dwelling in believers contributes to the binding of Satan as well. Would you try to tell me that the gospel could be preached just as successfully to the world even without those who preach the gospel doing so through the power of the Holy Spirit? if so, I couldn't disagree more.

You proved with your post that you do not understand the difference between New Testament and Old Testament times as it relates to Satan and the difference between what he was able to do in OT times compared to NT times. Christians should not be ignorant about that.

also copy @DavidPT
Satan's power being broken does not mean Satan was thrown into the LOF, does it? If not, why does it mean he was bound in the abyss and a seal set on him so that he should deceive the nations no longer until the thousand years are finished?

IMO Just as much as it would be a giant leap using the pole-vault of assumption to go from Satan's power being destroyed to Satan having been cast into the LOF, so it is a giant leap using the pole-vault of assumption to go from from Satan's power being destroyed to Satan being bound, especially since all these verses describe Satan running around being very active, both in his attempts to cause disruption in the body of Christ, and in the world:

1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7. These verses plus the two below show that this activity of Satan spans the entire Age:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and Ephesians 2:2 tell us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

If a king owns a kingdom and in his kingdom there is an adversary running around causing havoc and dissension against the king's will and authority, then if the king decides to put and end to the adversary's nonsense, he would either need to bind the adversary and put him in a prison in solitary confinement where he can do no harm, or he would need to destroy the adversary.

But if the adversary is running around in the king's kingdom doing what all the above verses tell us Satan is doing, then the king has neither bound him, nor destroyed him, but is allowing him to continue doing this, for the king's own purpose (maybe to see which citizens are loyal to the king and which are not?).

It's a giant leap using the pole-vault of assumption to go from the fact that Satan's power is defeated to "Satan is bound".

@Spiritual Jew Satan did not have to be bound for the gospel to spread, as you implied to @DavidPT . To say so is implying that Satan is more powerful than the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, but that assertion is implying that. This earth is Christ's Kingdom. God is infinitely more powerful than Satan, who was already defeated, anyway. The gospel being spread does not require the binding of Satan.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Those who have part in the first resurrection don't need to live again after the thousand years are finished. They already do that when they take part in the first resurrection.

Yes, they pass from death to life the moment they believe as Jn 5 explains...the time "now is" for not coming into the judgment. We are born again of the Spirit and have passed from death to life.

We await the bodily resurrection when Jesus comes in glory. We will be changed and they will be damned as Jn 5 also explains that bodies in tombs will come forth, some to life and some to the second death who didnt believe the Gospel the HOUR Jesus comes in Glory.

2Thess 1 makes that absolutely clear.

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[DavidPT]

If a king owns a kingdom and in his kingdom there is an adversary running around causing havoc and dissension against the king's will and authority, then if the king decides to put and end to the adversary's nonsense, he would either need to bind the adversary and put him in a prison in solitary confinement where he can do no harm, or he would need to destroy the adversary.

Let's consider this from the POV of Amil. Revelation 20:7 records that the thousand years are meaning imprisonment since it says he is loosed from his prison. If we assume Amil, and that the advesary is being imprisoned in order to end it's nonsense, obviously this imprisonment isn't working whatsoever. What nonsense of satan is his imprisonment putting an end to while he is bound, if assuming Amil?

that he should deceive the nations no more. This nonsense? Keeping in mind I'm meaning nonsense in the same way you are meaning it.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


If assuming Amil these in verse 8 would literally be living in the final days of the thousand years, which then means satan is still doing his nonsense during the thousand years, deceiving the nations, since these in verse 8 would obviously already be deceived during the thousand years if they are gathering together to battle after the thousand years. For the life of me I can't see how Amils think any of that makes good sense? If we were to assume Premil instead, none of these in verse 8 would be being deceived during the thousand years.

Which view is more likely to be the correct view? A view that is agreeing with the text or a view that is contradicting the text? One view has no nations still being deceived during the thousand years. Another view has nations still being deceived during the thousand years.

 

[DavidPT]

Yes, they pass from death to life the moment they believe as Jn 5 explains...the time "now is" for not coming into the judgment. We are born again of the Spirit and have passed from death to life.

Look what you are comparing, though. When the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years this is implying a bodily resurrection. Yet, you are saying that per the first resurrection when they live again, this is not meaning bodily this is meaning spiritually, which means they still need to live again the same way the rest of the dead live again, by being bodily raised. Thus why I indicated they don't need to bodily live again after the thoousand years. They already do that by having part in the first resurrection which precedes the resurrection of the rest of the dead.


Do Amils think---But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished--that this resurrection involves those who have part in the first resurrection, and the rest of the dead? Would anyone think that the first resurrection also involves any of the rest of the dead who don't live again until after the thousand years? Probably not, right? There you go then. If none of the rest of the dead can be involved during the first resurrection, then neither can any of those that have part in the first resurrection be involved during the resurrection of the rest of the dead after the thousand years.

This then means there is a bodily resurrection at or before the beginning of the thousand years, and that there is a bodily resurrection after the thousand years finish. The former is the resurrection of life. The latter is the resurrection of damnation. Both are bodily according to John 5:28-29. And that Revelation 20 reveals that the same hour isn't meant.

 

[Zao is life]

Let's consider this from the POV of Amil. Revelation 20:7 records that the thousand years are meaning imprisonment since it says he is loosed from his prison. If we assume Amil, and that the advesary is being imprisoned in order to end it's nonsense, obviously this imprisonment isn't working whatsoever. What nonsense of satan is his imprisonment putting an end to while he is bound, if assuming Amil?

that he should deceive the nations no more. This nonsense? Keeping in mind I'm meaning nonsense in the same way you are meaning it.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


If assuming Amil these in verse 8 would literally be living in the final days of the thousand years, which then means satan is still doing his nonsense during the thousand years, deceiving the nations, since these in verse 8 would obviously already be deceived during the thousand years if they are gathering together to battle after the thousand years. For the life of me I can't see how Amils think any of that makes good sense? If we were to assume Premil instead, none of these in verse 8 would be being deceived during the thousand years.

Which view is more likely to be the correct view? A view that is agreeing with the text or a view that is contradicting the text? One view has no nations still being deceived during the thousand years. Another view has nations still being deceived during the thousand years.

Yes as far as I know Amil has Satan being released for his final little season at the close of the millennium to go out and deceive (hence Gog & Magog). Which is where Premil has it.

The difference between Amil & Premil is that Amil has Satan already bound and unable to deceive the nations, but only in the sense that he is prevented from preventing the spread of the gospel, and (maybe, not sure if this is what Amil claims, because their statements in this regard are confusing) also in the sense that demonic possession on the scale described in the gospels (according to Amil) is not happening.

But there is absolutely no reason why God would need to bind Satan in order to prevent Satan from preventing the spread of the gospel, as though Satan, who has already been defeated anyway, is more powerful than the Holy Spirit.

So it's a very weak argument, IMO.

This, together with all the scriptures talking about Satan's ongoing activity in the world since Calvary, is one of the two biblical facts that I think will probably always prevent my own human intellect from allowing me the liberty to assume Amil.

 

[jeffweedaman]

The former is the resurrection of life. The latter is the resurrection of damnation. Both are bodily according to John 5:28-29. And that Revelation 20 reveals that the same hour isn't meant.

Not true.
The time for participating in the 1st resurrection "now is"
as they do not come into judgment in Johns words..., the second death cannot hurt them in Revs words must refer to the same hope, that "Now is"

They possess the same hope at Gods righteous judgment because both text are speaking of the same judgment. They possess this hope long before judgment day arrives on the day of Gods righteous judgment at Jesus appearing.


This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.