Whodunnit?

[Oblio]

but principally on the Sabbath-day. And on the day of our Lord's resurrection, which is the Lord's day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent Him to us, and condescended to let Him suffer, and raised Him from the dead.

Which is precisely what Orthodox Christians do. We worship on the Sabbath, and continue on to the Lord's Day.

 

[Oblio]

He should remember

And as I posted earlier, our worship stretches from the Sabbath to the Day of Resurrection (among others). To claim that our worship starts in the evening (and thus not on the Sabbath) is a misrepresentaion of our praxis.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

A strong delusion has come over you my brother, if you can sleep when confronted with truth!

Nani ga? Sunday daijabu

 

[tall73]

The point is it is your own members who characterized them as evening meetings, and Sabbath gatherings.

Now, if you admit that they are worshipping on Sabbath and Sunday according to tradition, then why be so harsh about the Sabbath?

And could you please give the Orthodox position on the council of Laodicea? It was a regional council, non-ecumenical.

It is the only council that I see that gives a definite position on the issue.

 

[tall73]

He should remember

Indeed.

 

[StPaul]

The Holy Spirit often works through humans {ie. preachers teachers etc.} to help us. You should listen to Tall73.

Could someone else not say the same thing as me?.... i.e. couldn't someone else come in (with equal validity) and say to Tall73 that "The Holy Spirit often works through humans {ie. preachers teachers etc.} to help us. You should listen to StPaul.

Why do you favor Tall73 right now?... perhaps b/c he holds to the same tradition that you do regarding this subject?

(Ironically, it is StPaul speaking those verses regarding the Christian Sabbath)

God Bless!

 

[StPaul]

And even if he doesn't accept that, he should at least make some attempt to show that tradition is right because it matches the text, not simply inspite of the fact that it doesn't.

This arguement is moot... for instance if something doesn't appear to 'match up' to you, it doesn't mean that it, in fact, does 'match up'.

An easy example of this...

Do you believe that Humans were created first,... or last?

Easy question... easy answer?... back it up with Scirpture...

(My bet is that no matter what view you hold, I could easily point out-by using scripture- that what you think will not 'match up' with Scripture)

Good luck... and most of all...

God Bless!

 

[ThreeAM]

Could someone else not say the same thing as me?.... i.e. couldn't someone else come in (with equal validity) and say to Tall73 that "The Holy Spirit often works through humans {ie. preachers teachers etc.} to help us. You should listen to StPaul.

Why do you favor Tall73 right now?... perhaps b/c he holds to the same tradition that you do regarding this subject?

(Ironically, it is StPaul speaking those verses regarding the Christian Sabbath)

God Bless!

Examine the context so that you can interpret for me?

Why should I trust your personal interpretation over my personal interpretation especially since I have "prayed that the Holy Spirit guide me in all of my interpretation of Scriptures"....

Are you trying to say that your Holy Spirit is better than mine?

God Bless!

Yes the Holy Spirit could be working through someone else. That is why rejecting what Tall73 without studying and examining what he said and without proving what you are saying is dangerous. Tall73 took the time to thoughtfully respond to your concerns and prove his point through the scriptures holding fast to that which is good, as should be done.


I Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Oblio]

Of course St. Paul was writing to a Bishop in the Church.

 

[ThreeAM]

Of course St. Paul was writing to a Bishop in the Church.

And your point is???

 

[tall73]

This arguement is moot... for instance if something doesn't appear to 'match up' to you, it doesn't mean that it, in fact, does 'match up'.

(My bet is that no matter what view you hold, I could easily point out-by using scripture- that what you think will not 'match up' with Scripture)

Good luck... and most of all...

God Bless!

The problem is the only alternative to trying to figure out what the text actually means is to rely on tradition. And the tradition here is mixed.

 

[tall73]

And your point is???

His point is that only the apostles and their bishop successors have any ability to interpret Scripture in their paradigm.

The problem is that the church fathers themselves were not always bishops, and yet they are the source for much tradition and interpretation. Please reconcile this fact for me folks.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

In 1582, the calendar in the West was bumped forward 10 days to compensate for the inaccuracy built into the Julian calendar. Therefore, the days of the week are all off-kilter, so that Sabbatarians are keeping Wednesday (fourth day).

God did not authorize changing the order of days to correct the calendar, either- so I expect to see that Sabbatarians of conviction will begin to keep Wednesday holy.

Unless, of course, they wish to observe the spirit of the Law, rather than the letter....

Regards
James

 

[tall73]

In 1582, the calendar in the West was bumped forward 10 days to compensate for the inaccuracy built into the Julian calendar. Therefore, the days of the week are all off-kilter, so that Sabbatarians are keeping Wednesday (fourth day).

God did not authorize changing the order of days to correct the calendar, either- so I expect to see that Sabbatarians of conviction will begin to keep Wednesday holy.

Unless, of course, they wish to observe the spirit of the Law, rather than the letter....

Regards
James

Actually the Julian calendar change reworked the numbered days, but the days of the week remained the same.

And does this mean you are going to start changing your Pascha date?

For that matter, note that it was the papacy that changed it. So if it was different, Catholics would be fine, but Orthodox would have a hard time explaining why they are observing the new first day.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

His point is that only the apostles and their bishop successors have any ability to interpret Scripture in their paradigm.

The problem is that the church fathers themselves were not always bishops, and yet they are the source for much tradition and interpretation. Please reconcile this fact for me folks.

Great question. Speaking of and for Orthodox practice:
It is a commonly-held misconcepton that all doctrine comes from Bishops. Doctrine rises up from the Church as it worships together- and is confirmed in the same manner.

And, just because some bishops propose or accept change- this is no guarantee that the Church will accept it. Classic example: council at Florence- accepted by many Bishops, rejected by the people.

Our Church calls for all baptized souls to become "theologian spirits" (Arch. Valileios). In our world, theology rises up from the Body, rather than simply descend from the governing powers.

 

[ThreeAM]

In 1582, the calendar in the West was bumped forward 10 days to compensate for the inaccuracy built into the Julian calendar. Therefore, the days of the week are all off-kilter, so that Sabbatarians are keeping Wednesday (fourth day).

God did not authorize changing the order of days to correct the calendar, either- so I expect to see that Sabbatarians of conviction will begin to keep Wednesday holy.

Unless, of course, they wish to observe the spirit of the Law, rather than the letter....

Regards
James

from www.biblelight.net

James you need to rethink what you are saying. While the calendar dates did change the days of the week did not. Notice friday the 15th follwed thursaday the 4th. We have a calendar change every 4 years leap year but it does not change the days of the week.

How come sunday keepers are so sure they are worshiping on the 1st day of the week the same day Christ resuurected from the grave but they can't seem to figure out the 7th day of the week is the day before sunday????

 

[tall73]

Great question. Speaking of and for Orthodox practice:
It is a commonly-held misconcepton that all doctrine comes from Bishops. Doctrine rises up from the Church as it worships together- and is confirmed in the same manner.

And, just because some bishops propose or accept change- this is no guarantee that the Church will accept it. Classic example: council at Florence- accepted by many Bishops, rejected by the people.

Our Church calls for all baptized souls to become "theologian spirits" (Arch. Valileios). In our world, theology rises up from the Body, rather than simply descend from the governing powers.

Yes, I had read of those instances and trends as well.

Which is why I see no reason for Oblio to take the stance that he did.

But for Paul, I don't see the same issue. They of course still say that Florence was just fine, that you all backed out because of the implications, and that the people don't get the say.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Right you are- my bad.

My point was and is about keeping the spirit rather than the letter. Every one of the Commandments was in some way altered by Christ in the gospel. Adultery is defined not just by flesh, but by intent. Murder is not the shedding only of blood, but also unrepentant anger.
Likewise, the Sabbath was described as 'made for man, not man for the Sabbath.'

In other words, He confonrted our legalistic hypocrisy. On the other hand, there are those who take the opposite tact, to use liberty as license. Against this He also spoke.
James

 

[tall73]

Right you are- my bad.

My point was and is about keeping the spirit rather than the letter. Every one of the Commandments was in some way altered by Christ in the gospel. Adultery is defined not just by flesh, but by intent. Murder is not the shedding only of blood, but also unrepentant anger.
Likewise, the Sabbath was described as 'made for man, not man for the Sabbath.'

In other words, He confonrted our legalistic hypocrisy. On the other hand, there are those who take the opposite tact, to use liberty as license. Against this He also spoke.
James

And the gospels contain an enormous amount of Sabbath material all aimed at throwing down the legalistic tendency, but still upholding the point.

The Sabbath is for man. It is a blessing for man, not a legalistic curse.

 

[ThreeAM]

And the gospels contain an enormous amount of Sabbath material all aimed at throwing down the legalistic tendency, but still upholding the point.

The Sabbath is for man. It is a blessing for man, not a legalistic curse.