Whodunnit?

[Oblio]

If you are not a Jew, then why do you (attempt to) keep their practices ?

 

[Oblio]

Why does Jesus never tell us to keep the Sabbath law ?

 

[Oblio]

Oh no! Not another Saturday Sabbath thread?

Better than another one bashing the Theotokos

 

[BrightCandle]

Why does Jesus never tell us to keep the Sabbath law ?

Jesus is the Word, and He is the one who along with the Father spoke and wrote the 4th Commandment in stone for all mankind. Jesus even knew that mankind would try to forget or neglect the Sabbath that's why He prefaced the Sabbath Commandment with the word "Remember"! Why would Jesus have done that if He was planning on doing away with the Sabbat Commandment? Additionally, if the God of Heaven is going to change his Holy Law, then He would make it very clear in no uncertain terms what the new Commandment would be, He would not leave us in the dark. Churchmen are behind all of the confusion and darkness of comprehension regarding the Sabbath, because they will not humble themselves and admit that they have been following the traditions of men over the plain word of God.

 

[ThreeAM]

Why does Jesus never tell us to keep the Sabbath law ?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Oblio]

Additionally, if the God of Heaven is going to change his Holy Law, then He would make it very clear in no uncertain terms what the new Commandment would be, He would not leave us in the dark.

He did leave us with a new commandment and covenant.

Churchmen are behind all of the confusion and darkness of comprehension regarding the Sabbath, because they will not humble themselves and admit that they have been following the traditions of men over the plain word of God.

Just as easily said of Sabbatarians.

 

[ThreeAM]

He did leave us with a new commandment and covenant.




Just as easily said of Sabbatarians.

And just where did Jesus change the sabbath or add sunday prior to him confirming the New Covenant with His blood?

Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

 

[Redwolf]

Perhaps you can, but what cannot be asssumed is that keeping the Sabbath has any bearing on salvation.

Keeping the commandments does The fourth commandment is right in the middle of the ten, and it takes delicate surgery to remove it.
Sin is the transgression of the law, without law there is no sin, the law points out sin, without the law we would not know that we are sinners.
Sin will keep us out of heaven.
Eh, what?

 

[tall73]

Examine the context so that you can interpret for me?

Why should I trust your personal interpretation over my personal interpretation especially since I have "prayed that the Holy Spirit guide me in all of my interpretation of Scriptures"....

Are you trying to say that your Holy Spirit is better than mine?

God Bless!

Not at all. Are you saying you are now listening to the Holy Spirit for your interpretation and not the church?

Same kind of question. And it misses the point. We both know we come from different angles on what constitutes authority.

But once you engage in quoting Scripture to prove your point, then you need to defend your view from Scripture. If you don't want to, then don't engage on that level.

It is up to you to demonstrate that your statments make any sense with the text. They don't. I expect the Holy Spirit not to be contradicting itself. And if Isaiah said back in his time that the Sabbaths were done away with there was no reason for Jesus to keep the command, or His disciples.

And in your interpretation of Isaiah you are following Barnabas, etc. But you are not following Jesus and His disciples who kept the command AFTER Isaiah's statement.

One or the other was wrong, and I am thinking it was Barnabas, who's whole aim was to deconstruct any meaning behind Judaism.


The rest of the tradition is likewise mixed. Ignatius, depending on which reading you take, endorses both days. So does the Apostolic Constitutions. Two historians in the 5th century relate that most Christians were keeping the day. But then you have a number of fathers who either hold up Sunday, or denegrate Sabbath, or both. And then you have John Paul II trying to make sense of these different streams, and saying that there have always been some who keep both days as brother days. And then he goes on to say that in fact the spiritual force of the commandment is now behind Sunday. which contradicts the notion that they are brother days.

You have had various groups that have kept it through the years including the Coptic Church, the Nazarenes, the Ebionites (admittedly heretical for other reasons), churches in India, and even the Orthodox retain some of the liturgical elements of when they kept it for the first 4 or five centuries, though they no longer see the same meaning in it.

Some fasted on Sabbath, some didn't. Some thought you should keep the Sabbath in a spiritual way, some thought that it was judaizing and it was questionable to even hold fellowship with those who did.

So if the Holy Spirit is guiding the church, it is just as far off and speaks with as many voices as us protestants on this question.

 

[tall73]

Then tell us plainly what is in effect.

No more nebulous follow Jesus example ... etc. Tell us plainly what we are to do to keep your Sabbath laws ?

What is wrong with Jesus?




Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread."But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them.



Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands

 

[tall73]

The Holy Spirit often works through humans {ie. preachers teachers etc.} to help us. You should listen to Tall73.

And even if he doesn't accept that, he should at least make some attempt to show that tradition is right because it matches the text, not simply inspite of the fact that it doesn't.

 

[tall73]

If you are not a Jew, then why do you (attempt to) keep their practices ?

And if you are orthodox, why do you not do what the majority of the orthodox did for centuries, as is evidenced even by the vestigual Sabbath services present today?

 

[tall73]

He did leave us with a new commandment and covenant.

Yes, a new commandment, which was not new, but was in the OT.

And I already covered the part in Hebrews that dealt with the new covenant, but no one will address it.

 

[Oblio]

And if you are orthodox, why do you not do what the majority of the orthodox did for centuries, as is evidenced even by the vestigual Sabbath services present today?

Specifically ?

Primary sources, not Sabbatarian conjecture.

 

[tall73]

Specifically ?

Primary sources, not Sabbatarian conjecture.

Don't you recall the last discussion on this topic when at least two Orthodox members here, including Repentant, told us that

a. The Orthodox church still keeps the Sabbath.

b. They kept it by attending Saturday evening services.

As for statments regarding the antiquity of the trend:

Apostolic Constitutions 4th century
In this text we see both being kept, and an endorsement of Sabbath, in honor of the command. Like Ignatius it stresses that it is a day for meditation of Scripture, not for external rest.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-41.htm#P5614_2026032

XXXVI. Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God,-to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or daemons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ. Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.

And a bit later on:

Be not careless of yourselves, neither deprive your Saviour of His own members, neither divide His body nor disperse His members, neither prefer the occasions of this life to the word of God; but assemble yourselves together every day, morning and evening, singing psalms and praying in the Lord's house: in the morning saying the sixty-second Psalm, and in the evening the hundred and fortieth, but principally on the Sabbath-day. And on the day of our Lord's resurrection, which is the Lord's day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent Him to us, and condescended to let Him suffer, and raised Him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day to hear the saving word concerning the resurrection, on which we pray thrice standing in memory of Him who arose in three days, in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the Gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food?

Sozomen, 5th century http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm
The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.

Socrates Scholasticus, History book 5, 5th century http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm
For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.

Socrates again, book 6 http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.htm

The Arians, as we have said, held their meetings without the city. As often therefore as the festal days occurred—I mean Saturday[1] and Lord’s day—in each week, on which assemblies are usually held in the churches, they congregated within the city gates about the public squares, and sang responsive verses adapted to the Arian heresy (Socrates' Ecclesiastical History, Book 6, Chapter 8, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume 3, p. 144)

 

[BrightCandle]

Here's my input on the whole matter:

A strong delusion has come over you my brother, if you can sleep when confronted with truth!

 

[Oblio]

The Orthodox church still keeps the Sabbath.

Indeed, the question is, what do the Heterodox mean by Keeping the Sabbath ?

 

[Oblio]

They kept it by attending Saturday evening services.

Incorrect, Saturday services begin before evening.

 

[ThreeAM]

Don't you recall the last discussion on this topic when at least two Orthodox members here, including Repentant, told us that

a. The Orthodox church still keeps the Sabbath.

b. They kept it by attending Saturday evening services.

He should remember

I am an Orthodox Christian and attend worship every Saturday evening then again on the Lord's Day. Honoring Saturday eve is part of Orthodox Tradition.

Suffice it to say, that Orthodox Christians strive to keep the Sabbath, and every other day for that matter, Holy as God has commanded us to.