WHO WROTE MATTHEW?

Guojing said:

Care to share your complete notion of what belief entails then?

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Pistis in Greek implies trust, not just a notional belief, like believing a conspiracy theory about the moon landing, and so on.

FireDragon76 said:

Pistis in Greek implies trust, not just a notional belief, like believing a conspiracy theory about the moon landing, and so on.

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Does it include works?

Guojing said:

Does it include works?

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It's a trust that works necessarily follow from, so it cannot be separated from works.

Guojing said:

Does it include works?

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No. Faith is a disposition of the will, it doesn't necessarily include good works. Faith disposes a person towards good works.

Having faith in the structural integrity of a bridge means nothing unless you actually walk across that bridge.

Guojing said:

Does it include works?

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No, but it follows that works come from faith. "I trust you" implies there will be action which corresponds to that trust; but those actions are not the same thing as that trust.

Faith in Christ has nothing to do with our works.
But good works are born of faith, for faith which trusts Christ believes Him, and out of this is born a new obedience to will good for our neighbor.

Thus we were created for good works (Ephesians 2:10) though those works are not what receives salvation for us, our salvation is God's gift and work alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The relationship between faith and works makes a lot of sense when understood through the Law-Gospel Dialetic, and that there are two kinds of righteousness.

Every other hermeneutic I've seen ends up presenting a highly confused and contorted mess of things.

-CryptoLutheran

FireDragon76 said:

No. Faith is a disposition of the will, it doesn't necessarily include good works. Faith disposes a person towards good works.

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So when you read the actual John the apostle saying

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Do you think John is implying what you are saying, that faith does not necessarily include good works?

ViaCrucis said:

Thus we were created for good works (Ephesians 2:10) though those works are not what receives salvation for us, our salvation is God's gift and work alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).

-CryptoLutheran

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So when you read the actual John the apostle saying

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

If you read these statements and understand them literally, do you think John is teaching the same thing as you, "though those works are not what receives salvation for us, our salvation is God's gift and work alone (Ephesians 2:8-9)."

Guojing said:

So when you read the actual John the apostle saying
1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him
1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
If you read these statements and understand them literally, do you think John is teaching the same thing as you, "though those works are not what receives salvation for us, our salvation is God's gift and work alone (Ephesians 2:8-9)."

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Galatians 2:16
(16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

There is a difference between the works of the law required in the OT and the works resulting from faith.

James 2:14
(14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:17
(17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
(18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:20
(20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:24
(24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26
(26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

Guojing said:

So when you read the actual John the apostle saying

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

If you read these statements and understand them literally, do you think John is teaching the same thing as you, "though those works are not what receives salvation for us, our salvation is God's gift and work alone (Ephesians 2:8-9)."

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Yes, John is not talking about how a person is justified before God. John is talking about what Lutherans would call iustitia coram mundo (aka coram hominibus), righteousness before the world or fellow man.

There are two kinds of righteousness, there is the righteousness before God, that which renders a person just before God, which is the pure gift of God--the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, received by faith alone; a passive righteousness because it is a righteousness received. And there is the righteousness before others, the active righteousness which comes from faith found in good works.

Two kinds of righteousness, that which is passive and justifies us before God, received through faith. In other words, Justification. And that which is active and is done before others, which comes from faith by our cooperation with God. In other words, Sanctification.

Justification =/= Sanctification.
Imputed Righteousness =/= Active Righteousness.
Gospel =/= Law.

The relationship between good works and faith is that faith does good works, but it is not good works which justify us before God it is faith, for faith receives God's Good Work. The only work that declares and renders us just is the work of God in sending His Son, to suffer and die in our stead, and who made perfect satisfaction by His own righteous obedience. So it is written, what the Law could not do because of sin, God did by sending His Son in human likeness (Romans 8:3-4). And now, having been justified by the grace of God, through faith, having received the Spirit we are called to an active life of obedience: not for our justification, that is already done and accomplished, but out of love for God and neighbor we are called to take up our cross, to confess our sins, repent, and do good works--works which we were created for in Christ. For every one who is made new in Christ is, indeed, a new creation in Christ; and having died with Christ, being crucified with Him, buried with Him, and raised up together with Him to this new life--His new life--we, by the aid and power of the Holy Spirit, are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God (Romans 6:11-14).

Righteousness Coram Deo.
Righteousness Coram Mundo.

-CryptoLutheran

joeLightening said:

This topic is controversial, so maybe it belongs here in controversial Christian Theology. As the title suggest, I have been researching to find out if there is any proof that Matthew really wrote Matthew.

At this point the only way I could verify "who", would to have been an eye witness of who wrote it, have verifiable written statements from verifiable eyewitnesses., or God tell me who wrote it.

Some, if not many, claim that the internal evidence of this book proves that Matthew wrote it. What internal evidence? I read through Matthew today and did not find any internal evidence proving that Matthew wrote it.

Feel free to express your take on this and the reasons you believe as you do. THANKS!

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I think he was probably a converted scribe or Pharisee. He seems very familiar with Jewish exegetical debates and techniques of the time and may include an autobiographical note (Matt 13:52).

ViaCrucis said:

Yes, John is not talking about how a person is justified before God. John is talking about what Lutherans would call iustitia coram mundo (aka coram hominibus), righteousness before the world or fellow man.

There are two kinds of righteousness, there is the righteousness before God, that which renders a person just before God, which is the pure gift of God--the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, received by faith alone; a passive righteousness because it is a righteousness received. And there is the righteousness before others, the active righteousness which comes from faith found in good works.

Two kinds of righteousness, that which is passive and justifies us before God, received through faith. In other words, Justification. And that which is active and is done before others, which comes from faith by our cooperation with God. In other words, Sanctification.

Justification =/= Sanctification.
Imputed Righteousness =/= Active Righteousness.
Gospel =/= Law.

The relationship between good works and faith is that faith does good works, but it is not good works which justify us before God it is faith, for faith receives God's Good Work. The only work that declares and renders us just is the work of God in sending His Son, to suffer and die in our stead, and who made perfect satisfaction by His own righteous obedience. So it is written, what the Law could not do because of sin, God did by sending His Son in human likeness (Romans 8:3-4). And now, having been justified by the grace of God, through faith, having received the Spirit we are called to an active life of obedience: not for our justification, that is already done and accomplished, but out of love for God and neighbor we are called to take up our cross, to confess our sins, repent, and do good works--works which we were created for in Christ. For every one who is made new in Christ is, indeed, a new creation in Christ; and having died with Christ, being crucified with Him, buried with Him, and raised up together with Him to this new life--His new life--we, by the aid and power of the Holy Spirit, are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God (Romans 6:11-14).

Righteousness Coram Deo.
Righteousness Coram Mundo.

-CryptoLutheran

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But if John say one don't have eternal life 1 John 3:15, can he still be saved or righteous before God?

Guojing said:

But if John say one don't have eternal life 1 John 3:15, can he still be saved or righteous before God?

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Not without faith. This is where St. John talking about "sin that leads to death" and "sin that doesn't lead to death" is relevant. When sin chokes out faith, that shipwrecks our faith. That is why we must always be at the receiving end of grace.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Not without faith. This is where St. John talking about "sin that leads to death" and "sin that doesn't lead to death" is relevant. When sin chokes out faith, that shipwrecks our faith. That is why we must always be at the receiving end of grace.

-CryptoLutheran

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So one can lose salvation if he does not love others or hate his brother, as John is saying?

joeLightening said:

This topic is controversial, so maybe it belongs here in controversial Christian Theology. As the title suggest, I have been researching to find out if there is any proof that Matthew really wrote Matthew.

At this point the only way I could verify "who", would to have been an eye witness of who wrote it, have verifiable written statements from verifiable eyewitnesses., or God tell me who wrote it.

Some, if not many, claim that the internal evidence of this book proves that Matthew wrote it. What internal evidence? I read through Matthew today and did not find any internal evidence proving that Matthew wrote it.

Feel free to express your take on this and the reasons you believe as you do. THANKS!

Click to expand...

Matthew was a Jew writing for Jews. Apart from quoting the instances where various prophecies were fulfilled, he starts his Gospel with the words "the genealogy of Jesus, son of David." He traces Jesus' family tree back to Abraham, the first Patriarch.
There are 5 blocks of teaching in Matthew written deliberately to, I think, mirror the first 5 books of the Torah.
Matthew may not have actually written the Gospel himself - though, as a tax collector, he would have been able to write. But an early church historian, Papias, wrote that "Matthew collected the sayings of Jesus in the Hebrew tongue." It seems that so many of these sayings were incorporated into the Gospel that Matthew's name was attached to it.
(Source, William Barclay's commentary on Matthew.)

joeLightening said:

Some have said that Matthew borrowed from the book of Mark. They say Mark learned from the Apostle Peter. The truth is that the 12 Apostles all saw what Jesus did and heard what Jesus said. The Holy Spirit brought this to their memories. They were not dependant on each other for what to write.

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Mark's was the first Gospel to be written and Peter was one of Mark's sources. Again, it it Papias who tells us this.
Mark's Gospel was one source for Matthew, he no doubt had additional sources. Apparently there are 661 verses in Mark's Gospel and Matthew reproduces 606 of them. This is not just Matthew giving the sense of the verse, he uses 51% of the actual words that Mark uses. (Source, William Barclay's commentary on Matthew.)

Guojing said:

So one can lose salvation if he does not love others or hate his brother, as John is saying?

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Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing", He says He is the Vine and we are the branches. If you sever a branch from the root it withers and dies.

What did Jesus say in the Parable of the Sower? Some of the seed that was scattered took root but then choked out by thorns and thistles, some seed took root but then was scorched by the heat of the sun.

Without Christ we wither and die.

Without faith we are severed from Christ, to have faith in Christ is to trust Him and cleave to Him--without Him we have nothing; everything we have is because of Him and is from Him.

So, yes, if we allow sin to fester, grow, choke us out, and kill faith then we make shipwreck of our faith.

It's not about some kind of moralistic maintenance, "Do this, this, and that" in order to keep your salvation--that would be a salvation by works. But there is a reason why Scripture tells us to always believe, to always trust Jesus, to always look to Him, cling to Him; teaching us not to let sin gain mastery over us again as it formerly did before we believed, etc.

There is sin that leads unto death, and sin that does not lead unto death. When sin prospers and chokes out faith, it kills. That is why John says, "If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleans us from all unrighteousness" along with, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (see 1 John 1:8-9)

This is why the call to repent, to make confession of our sin, is so vitally important to our spiritual health as believers. That we recognize the ongoing problem of sin in our lives and our struggle with sin, and to always call out to God for mercy, to always look to Jesus for salvation, to always trust in Him alone. Never trusting in our own works, in our own false sense of moral goodness--because we still need to abide there at the foot of the cross. The blood of the Lamb of God alone covers our sins--all of our sins. God's mercy alone keeps us, saves us, and heals us.

If you walk away from Jesus, then you set yourself apart from Jesus, and so you die. You are as an unbeliever--believers believe. And it isn't your work that you believe, that is God's work in you, by the gift and presence of the Holy Spirit, through the word of God (Romans 10:17). So that "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

Our assurance is found in Christ and the irrevocable promises of God in Christ to us and for us. To look anywhere else is to have a false assurance and that leads to death. To trust in anything other than Jesus is to walk toward death. To think one came to faith at one time earlier in their life, and now live apart from Jesus and to forsake the gathering together of the Faithful in the Church, to hear the word preached and receive the Sacraments, that leads to death. It may not be immediate, it may be a slow death--wherein the whispers and lies of the devil fester in our ear, the light of faith being slowly puffed out by the foul lies of the devil as we forsake the word of God, cease our trusting in the Lord, abiding in mercy, etc.

Salvation isn't a transaction or a contract, as though if I sign my name on this dotted line then I'm saved and God is contractually obligated to give me a happy reward in the afterlife. That is a shallow theology and a hellish lie of the evil one that would have us trust ourselves and deny Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

Salvation is the living, dynamic relationship--the encounter--with God in Jesus Christ through faith, whereby God meets us, gives Himself to us, and we are changed, we are new creations and have a life granted to us as pure gift. "Eat My flesh and drink My blood" Jesus said, "You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have eternal life, it is these which bear witness to Me" "You must be born again".

Everything in Scripture points to Jesus, granted for us to look to and trust in Christ, that by the power of the Spirit we should hear the word of truth, that our sins are forgiven and we are beloved of God for Christ's sake; and that in Him we have the assurance, hope, and promise of life--both abundant life here and now from Him and then, in the end, being raised up from the dead to that future life that never ends in the Age to Come.

But it is always and only in Jesus. For there is "no other name", salvation is found in the name of Jesus, in Him alone. Jesus is our Savior, He is our salvation, He is our reconciliation, He is our righteousness, He is our peace. He is our everything both now, at the hour of our death, and in the resurrection, and the life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

So, yes, if we allow sin to fester, grow, choke us out, and kill faith then we make shipwreck of our faith.

-CryptoLutheran

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So even though salvation is by grace thru faith alone without works.

If I don't do works after that, I can lose that salvation, which I earlier received without works.

Is that what you are saying?

Guojing said:

So even though salvation is by grace thru faith alone without works.

If I don't do works after that, I can lose that salvation, which I earlier received without works.

Is that what you are saying?

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No. That isn't even remotely close to what I'm saying.

How did you become a child to your parents? Did you do anything? No. They brought you into this world and you contributed nothing.

Do you have to do anything to continue being a child to your parents? No, but you still have a relationship with them, right?

But you could, of course, choose to disavow your parents and treat them as though they were dead to you, you could cut yourself off from them, walk away, etc. Right?

You could, by making choices, injure the relationship you have with your parents, grow distant from them, and eventually live as though you aren't their child.

When God by His grace came and made us His own, giving us faith, we became members of His Household. Does a child have to earn his or her keep? No, the child, as long as they are a child, is in the house--solely by the love of our God and Father.

But can you leave? Yes.
Can you denounce Him? Yes.
You can walk away, you could throw away every gift He has given you.

It's not about you earning your place.
But if you throw it all away, then you've thrown it all away.
And, yes, sin absolutely can cause that. That's why those warnings in Scripture exist, otherwise they'd be empty words.

Faith is what makes you a member of God's House.
Without faith you aren't a member of God's House.

Faith is what makes you God's child.
Faith is what makes you a new creation.
Without faith, you're just the old man, dead in sin and condemned under the Law.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

But can you leave? Yes.
Can you denounce Him? Yes.
You can walk away, you could throw away every gift He has given you.

It's not about you earning your place.
But if you throw it all away, then you've thrown it all away.
And, yes, sin absolutely can cause that. That's why those warnings in Scripture exist, otherwise they'd be empty words.

-CryptoLutheran

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From Romans 5:12-19, Adam's disobedience has given all his descendants the gift of death.

His descendants can denounce Satan and and still die? Yes.
His descendants can love their brothers and still die? Yes.

But Christ's obedience is not as powerful, after we received that gift, we can throw that salvation away by leaving, denouncing and sinning?

Is that your point?