Who will win the Mars race?

Who will win the Mars race?

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KCfromNC

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Well, my view has absolutely no connection to this scenario at all.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying you accept that your source is correct that the reason we can't go back to the moon is due to lost technology? Or do you disagree that we went in the first place? But pretending that we never went to the moon and then lost the technology used to get there isn't exactly the sign of a consistent story.

Ahh..... "probably" ......sounds so certain.

Yeah, dealing with human motivations is like that.

Or, they never went, still can't go

No reason to believe that kind of nonsense.

However, if you can believe that the little puff of energy got them out of the moon's gravity which was 1/6 of the earths...... then you could probably have just thrown it yourself..... about as plausible.

"If you really look..... I mean really look..." you'll see that there's quite a big difference between the dV in the lander motor and a single human's throwing strength. Why not do it and show us the results.

Well, conspiracy theories are initiated by people who don't just swallow all the lies that the world tells them.

That's not my understanding.

If you really look..... I mean really look... there are far more inconsistencies in the NASA story than in the concepts of the moon landing deniers.

For some reason you've avoided addressing many of the inconsistencies in your story I pointed out earlier. Sure, pretending they aren't there is easy but it also isn't convincing.
 
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JacksBratt

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I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying you accept that your source is correct that the reason we can't go back to the moon is due to lost technology? Or do you disagree that we went in the first place? But pretending that we never went to the moon and then lost the technology used to get there isn't exactly the sign of a consistent story.
I'm saying that it is absurd to say that they "lost technology" in a world where technology is exploding.
And it is equally absurd to state that you are trying to go to mars while going to the moon is outside your technological capabilities.

I'm saying nothing has any continuity.




No reason to believe that kind of nonsense.
Of course not... I saw pictures.... (sarcasm)



"If you really look..... I mean really look..." you'll see that there's quite a big difference between the dV in the lander motor and a single human's throwing strength. Why not do it and show us the results.

Note to self, indicate sarcasm when using sarcasm.



That's not my understanding.

So, you are saying that conspiracy theories are not "initiated by people who don't just swallow all the lies that the world tells them"?

Just what are they initiated by? People that accept the lies that the world tells them?



For some reason you've avoided addressing many of the inconsistencies in your story I pointed out earlier. Sure, pretending they aren't there is easy but it also isn't convincing.

Pick one. Pick your favorite. I've spent enough time explaining things to people. It's laborious going through bunches of them... so, pick your favorite.
 
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dgiharris

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... This is a popular movement to which millions of people may subscribe 10 euros here, 10 dollars there. The interest is such that funds can come from a wide variety of sources.....

If a privately funded Mars Mission had the right marketing and picked up steam to form a true global movement, I would think we as a species would donate hundreds of millions per year to this easily via $10 here, 10 euros there, 200 Yen here, 100 pesos there...

Especially if they did a Marketing campaign where they are selling T-shirts and hats. Buy a $5 "I funded the Mars Mission" T-shirt for $25, profit goes to the Mars mission...

....
Too right I and millions others have a zeal about this. Yes we are tired of the worldweary no hopers who say it cannot be done for no good reason. It can be done with the right people driving it and Elon Musk and SpaceX are blazing the trail right now not NASA the FKA or other established agencies. The Falcon 9 was a success and essentially uses the same raptor engines that the larger rockets will use. We have good reason to believe that the transportation issues of getting to Mars are on the brink of resolution.

It is a travesty to the human condition and all that our species has done and can do that we do not have a Lunar Colony and Mars Colony and firm Space presence yet.

For those of us with Technical backgrounds, we know exactly what could have been and what should have been.

We went from the horseless carriage to the moon in about 75 years.
We went from TNT to the A-bomb in about 75 years.

And now, about 50 years after first stepping foot on the moon, what have we done since then? How do our achievements in Space now compare to the pace and magnitude of the achievements then?

Conversely, how much money, manpower, and lives have been wasted on War since WWII? Accounting for Veteran benefits, the US spent over $1 Trillion dollars on Vietnam. If you add up the Iraq Wars and Afghanistan we are looking at $5 Trillion. And this is "just" the US.

What has the world as a whole spent on Military Conflict? Beyond spending, what has been the cost in human lives?

How much better would the world be if we took just 25% of all of that money and energy and put it into reaching the Stars? That is something that could have united us while simultaneously improving the quality of life for everyone on this planet. But most importantly, ensuring that our species survives a catastrophic event (we had a planet killer asteroid miss us in the 1980s).
 
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JacksBratt

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If a privately funded Mars Mission had the right marketing and picked up steam to form a true global movement, I would think we as a species would donate hundreds of millions per year to this easily via $10 here, 10 euros there, 200 Yen here, 100 pesos there...

Especially if they did a Marketing campaign where they are selling T-shirts and hats. Buy a $5 "I funded the Mars Mission" T-shirt for $25, profit goes to the Mars mission...



It is a travesty to the human condition and all that our species has done and can do that we do not have a Lunar Colony and Mars Colony and firm Space presence yet.

For those of us with Technical backgrounds, we know exactly what could have been and what should have been.

We went from the horseless carriage to the moon in about 75 years.
We went from TNT to the A-bomb in about 75 years.

And now, about 50 years after first stepping foot on the moon, what have we done since then? How do our achievements in Space now compare to the pace and magnitude of the achievements then?

Conversely, how much money, manpower, and lives have been wasted on War since WWII? Accounting for Veteran benefits, the US spent over $1 Trillion dollars on Vietnam. If you add up the Iraq Wars and Afghanistan we are looking at $5 Trillion. And this is "just" the US.

What has the world as a whole spent on Military Conflict? Beyond spending, what has been the cost in human lives?

How much better would the world be if we took just 25% of all of that money and energy and put it into reaching the Stars? That is something that could have united us while simultaneously improving the quality of life for everyone on this planet. But most importantly, ensuring that our species survives a catastrophic event (we had a planet killer asteroid miss us in the 1980s).
It is sad but the ones in control..(the Rockefeller's, Rothschild's, Astor's, Onassis' , Li's, Freeman's...... the list goes on) know no borders. They love the war machine and continually keep the conflicts moving.

They do not want peace. Peace is a period of time where it is difficult to make money.

Check out the documentary "Everything is a rich man's Trick"....

As for colonizing the moon or Mars or any "station" in space....will never happen.

1/ It is too expensive
2/ It has no benefit to this world
3/ It is too dangerous.

.....if it was even possible.

Final word is that there is no "return on investment" and no "benefit" to anyone.
 
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dgiharris

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It is sad but the ones in control..(the Rockefeller's, Rothschild's, Astor's, Onassis' , Li's, Freeman's...... the list goes on) know no borders. They love the war machine and continually keep the conflicts moving.

They do not want peace. Peace is a period of time where it is difficult to make money.

Check out the documentary "Everything is a rich man's Trick"....

As for colonizing the moon or Mars or any "station" in space....will never happen.

1/ It is too expensive
2/ It has no benefit to this world
3/ It is too dangerous.

.....if it was even possible.

Final word is that there is no "return on investment" and no "benefit" to anyone.

Your arguments have a surprisingly lot in common to the arguments proposed during the dark ages about exploration and seeking that alternative path to India...

I almost think you are trolling. In fact, I would rather hope you are trolling, because the idea that in this age of information that anyone could honestly and sincerely believe what you believe makes me very sad.

You are arguing against the impossibility of something...

I do not mean to sound condescending, but I don't think you've ever achieved anything hard in your entire life. I don't think you've ever done anything extraordinary or ever stretched yourself.

The reason I say that is because I often find that people who claim certain things are "impossible" are those who have never done anything noteworthy requiring them to exceed their own limits. And thus, they think everyone is like them and so since said person could never do it, obviously "no one" could do it.

In my life, I've seen human beings do incredible things. This is the part where I list all the incredible things I've seen... but truthfully, it is wasted on deaf ears.

A lot of the ignorance you have you can solve with a little bit of google, and $50 worth of Home Depot supplies if you had the inclination to do a few basic science experiments in the comfort of your own home disproving your notions.

You are arguing from a position of ignorance, I do not mean that as a flame, I mean that literally. You simply do not know what you are talking about. The evidence is all around you but you just can't assimilate it.

The airplane was once thought Impossible. Even though birds fly in the air, an airplane was considered "impossible". Even when someone had developed a glider and hang glider people still believed the airplane was "impossible". Even when flying toys were developed the airplane was still considered "impossible". And then, in 1904 with a bunch of bicycle parts and a basic motor, two men did the impossible.

Throughout human history we've done the impossible time and time again. And yet there are those who simply lack any vision or understanding of what we are capable of. You sir, are one of those people.

The evidence is all around you. And yet you willfully have your head in the sand. Worse, the more we try to coax your head out of the sand, the harder you dig in and the further you stick your neck and head beneath the Earth.

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time writing you. I just spent 10 minutes of my life typing this, ten minutes I will never get back... I guess it is just out of morbid curiosity, like seeing someone with six fingers or with 3 eyes...

You are smart enough to buy into junk science and explanations but not smart enough to disprove them. Ironically, it is "harder" to buy into the junk science than it is to simply disprove it.

I wonder if the main issue isn't one of knowledge at all, but rather psychological? I mean, what is it about conspiracy theories that are so appealing? Is it the notion that you are smarter than billions of people? That you and you alone have figured something out that has alluded the masses? It must be very gratifying to ones ego to be "the only one" to see the truth and to see the light when everyone else around you is stuck in the dark...
 
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KCfromNC

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I'm saying that it is absurd to say that they "lost technology" in a world where technology is exploding.

Then show me a factory which is still producing the computers used in the Apollo capsule. Heck, find me one building a VCR if you want to pretend that technology never becomes obsolete.

And it is equally absurd to state that you are trying to go to mars while going to the moon is outside your technological capabilities.

Who is saying that?

Of course not... I saw pictures.... (sarcasm)

If that's all you looked at you're missing quite a lot.

Note to self, indicate sarcasm when using sarcasm.

Given you're telling people that space flight is a hoax that seems like a good idea.

So, you are saying that conspiracy theories are not "initiated by people who don't just swallow all the lies that the world tells them"?

Just what are they initiated by? People that accept the lies that the world tells them?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-some-people-believe-in-conspiracy-theories/

Pick one. Pick your favorite.

How about the Hubble pictures of Jupiter. You said if one existed you'd be convinced. I posted a link to one, and yet here you are pretending that it never happened. What gives?
 
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BigDaddy4

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How much better would the world be if we took just 25% of all of that money and energy and put it into reaching the Stars? That is something that could have united us while simultaneously improving the quality of life for everyone on this planet. But most importantly, ensuring that our species survives a catastrophic event (we had a planet killer asteroid miss us in the 1980s).

So we can have Star wars instead of earth wars?
 
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JacksBratt

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Your arguments have a surprisingly lot in common to the arguments proposed during the dark ages about exploration and seeking that alternative path to India...

I almost think you are trolling. In fact, I would rather hope you are trolling, because the idea that in this age of information that anyone could honestly and sincerely believe what you believe makes me very sad.

You are arguing against the impossibility of something...

I do not mean to sound condescending, but I don't think you've ever achieved anything hard in your entire life. I don't think you've ever done anything extraordinary or ever stretched yourself.

The reason I say that is because I often find that people who claim certain things are "impossible" are those who have never done anything noteworthy requiring them to exceed their own limits. And thus, they think everyone is like them and so since said person could never do it, obviously "no one" could do it.

In my life, I've seen human beings do incredible things. This is the part where I list all the incredible things I've seen... but truthfully, it is wasted on deaf ears.

A lot of the ignorance you have you can solve with a little bit of google, and $50 worth of Home Depot supplies if you had the inclination to do a few basic science experiments in the comfort of your own home disproving your notions.

You are arguing from a position of ignorance, I do not mean that as a flame, I mean that literally. You simply do not know what you are talking about. The evidence is all around you but you just can't assimilate it.

The airplane was once thought Impossible. Even though birds fly in the air, an airplane was considered "impossible". Even when someone had developed a glider and hang glider people still believed the airplane was "impossible". Even when flying toys were developed the airplane was still considered "impossible". And then, in 1904 with a bunch of bicycle parts and a basic motor, two men did the impossible.

Throughout human history we've done the impossible time and time again. And yet there are those who simply lack any vision or understanding of what we are capable of. You sir, are one of those people.

The evidence is all around you. And yet you willfully have your head in the sand. Worse, the more we try to coax your head out of the sand, the harder you dig in and the further you stick your neck and head beneath the Earth.

Your are absolutely right...... you know nothing about me and your assumptions are just that... assumptions. As usual.... they are in error.



I don't even know why I'm wasting my time writing you. I just spent 10 minutes of my life typing this, ten minutes I will never get back.
Well it wasn't a total waste. I certainly know what you think of people like myself that refuse to believe everything as stated and investigate things that do not make sense.


.
I mean, what is it about conspiracy theories that are so appealing? Is it the notion that you are smarter than billions of people? That you and you alone have figured something out that has alluded the masses? It must be very gratifying to ones ego to be "the only one" to see the truth and to see the light when everyone else around you is stuck in the dark...

No
No and
No....It's about investigating things that don't make sense and finding out that there is a good reason that they don't.

Thanks for your views.
Look me up when we are in glory and we can sit and laugh about all the things we were wrong about....
 
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JacksBratt

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Then show me a factory which is still producing the computers used in the Apollo capsule. Heck, find me one building a VCR if you want to pretend that technology never becomes obsolete.

See, you are so eager to prove me wrong that you totally flub your argument.
They have not "lost" the technology necessary to make a VCR. However, this NASA astronaut stated that they have "lost" the technology necessary to go to the moon.
If they cannot go to the moon.... how in the world are they dreaming that they can go to mars.

That's like saying...." I cannot lift 300lbs over my head.... but I'm trying to lift 6000 lbs."



Who is saying that?
Watch the video clip again....



If that's all you looked at you're missing quite a lot.

Did I not make it clear that I was being sarcastic?



Given you're telling people that space flight is a hoax that seems like a good idea.

I don't think I ever said that space flight was a "hoax"... I did say that the moon landings were fake. I did say that the Van Allen Belts prohibit us from going much further out than the space shuttle went.
I did say that the Van Allen Belts were a major obstacle for the mars mission and I am confused how it was not an issue for the Apollo missions.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-some-people-believe-in-conspiracy-theories/

Nice article.

Are we going to duel it out with posting articles back and forth to support our view? As if in some miraculous way you will convince me we went to the moon or I will convince you that it's a fake?



How about the Hubble pictures of Jupiter. You said if one existed you'd be convinced. I posted a link to one, and yet here you are pretending that it never happened. What gives?

I'm not pretending... I'm totally aware that any pictures that are posted by NASA, anywhere, are to be taken with a grain of salt........ they are probably CGI which NASA is very good at.

You see, NASA has put out some amazing CGI and paintings and presented them to the public. All they have done is exhibit their ability to make anything look real and the public have swallowed it hook, line and sinker...

Who took these pictures?

images
images

images
images

images
upload_2017-9-19_17-18-9.jpeg
 
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KCfromNC

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See, you are so eager to prove me wrong that you totally flub your argument.
They have not "lost" the technology necessary to make a VCR.

Then show me a factory which is building them.

However, this NASA astronaut stated that they have "lost" the technology necessary to go to the moon.

Technology to go to the moon, or technology previously used to go to the moon? Big difference.

Did I not make it clear that I was being sarcastic?

Didn't seem necessarily so, especially given all of the other stuff you apparently take very seriously.

I don't think I ever said that space flight was a "hoax"... I did say that the moon landings were fake.

Along with the Hubble and satellite tv, if I remember correctly. Was there any human space flight?

Are we going to duel it out with posting articles back and forth to support our view?

You'd have to start posting actual references for that to happen.


I'm not pretending... I'm totally aware that any pictures that are posted by NASA, anywhere, are to be taken with a grain of salt........ they are probably CGI which NASA is very good at.

You see, NASA has put out some amazing CGI and paintings and presented them to the public. All they have done is exhibit their ability to make anything look real and the public have swallowed it hook, line and sinker...

Who took these pictures?

Why not focus on the pictures I actually linked rather than trying to change the subject? Remember just a day or two ago you were willing to admit you were wrong if there was a zoomed-in picture of Jupiter. Now you seem to be running away from that claim as fast as you can. What's up with the lack of consistency?
 
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JacksBratt

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Then show me a factory which is building them.



Technology to go to the moon, or technology previously used to go to the moon? Big difference.

You still seem confused on this...
1/ He said that they lost the technology to go to the moon.
2/ They have not lost the technology to build a VCR
3/ They could build a VCR if it was necessary, but it is not
4/ According to the astronaut.... they CANNOT go to the moon if they wanted to.
5/ The technology used to go to the moon would be similar to going to mars....
6/ If you can go to mars, why is it so difficult to go to a satellite clump of dirt that is much closer and you have already been there?

Put it in another way.....

There are two islands in a shark infested ocean. One is a mile away, the other is 30 miles away.
The sharks are only in the first 500 meters of the journey. They are hungry and a dense population.
You have swam to the first and closer island before...
You are preparing to swim to the second further island...
The problem with swimming to the second island is the sharks.
when you went to the first island, you didn't worry about the sharks, didn't know or understand about the sharks... but went anyway, several times.
Now the sharks are prohibiting you from going to the second island until you can deal with them.
You have lost the technology that you used to go to the first Island....

Do you see the point?
 
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KCfromNC

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You still seem confused on this...
1/ He said that they lost the technology to go to the moon.
2/ They have not lost the technology to build a VCR
3/ They could build a VCR if it was necessary, but it is not
4/ According to the astronaut.... they CANNOT go to the moon if they wanted to.

You're dismissing a whole bunch of stuff based on the opinion of one person. And that's assuming that he's actually saying what you claim he is.

5/ The technology used to go to the moon would be similar to going to mars....
6/ If you can go to mars, why is it so difficult to go to a satellite clump of dirt that is much closer and you have already been there?

How does planning to do something difficult make other difficult things not difficult? I

Do you see the point?

I see the point that you'd rather talk about imaginary sharks rather than pictures which you said would convince you until you learned they exist.
 
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dgiharris

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You still seem confused on this...
1/ He said that they lost the technology to go to the moon.
You keep focusing on this point as a key lynch pin in your argument.

#1) You are MISUNDERSTANDING and MISINTERPRETING what he said and the actual semantics of what he said. He said "we lost the technology" in the sense of obsolescence. This is why so many of us have used the argument of "obsolete technology" and why KCfromNC is making the point about VCR factories. It's not like there is some "Secret recipe for rocket fuel" that was lost like the original recipe of Coca Cola. It is well within our technological level to get back to the moon if we so choose, it would just be expensive. that is the only prohibition. We'd have to "recreate" the technology simply because we haven't been in so long... that is not the same as "lost" as in "no longer capable". that is where you are misinterpreting/misunderstanding

#2) Even for the sake of argument, lets say this astronaut is saying EXACTLY what you claim he is saying. He is "just" one Astronaut among a thousand. What about the other thousand who say the moon landing was real? Why are you choosing to believe one person vs the other thousand?

Tell you what, here is a challenge. If you can find the following I will believe you.
#1) Find a PhD physicist from any accredited University who says the moon landing was fake
#2) Find me an engineer in Electrical, Mechanical, Aerodynamics, etc that says the moon landing was fake
#3) Find me a PhD Mathematician from any accredited university who says the moon landing was fake
#4) Find me a journal article from any peer reviewed journal who says the moon landing was fake.

I will happily accept the above proof from Russia or China, which are countries that should be EAGER to prove that America faked the moon landing...
 
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JacksBratt

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Along with the Hubble and satellite tv, if I remember correctly. Was there any human space flight?

I believe they orbited the earth.. where does space begin? Is low earth orbit space?



You'd have to start posting actual references for that to happen.

You would have to post something that wasn't propaganda and regurgitated lies.



Why not focus on the pictures I actually linked rather than trying to change the subject?

I think it should be clear that any pictures on the NASA site are questionable. It is impossible to determine which are real and which are CGI. Basically pictures are non longer solid evidence of anything.


Remember just a day or two ago you were willing to admit you were wrong if there was a zoomed-in picture of Jupiter. Now you seem to be running away from that claim as fast as you can. What's up with the lack of consistency?

I was asking you to post a pic so that I could show you that there is absolutely no possible way to determine if a photo is fake, real, or a painting.

That is why I posted pictures of Voyager and other reconnaissance craft, along with other space photos..... nobody was there to take pictures..... the shots are impossible.

Thus NASA exposed the fact that they can print a picture of anything and it is null and void as any sort of evidence of anything.
 
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JacksBratt

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You're dismissing a whole bunch of stuff based on the opinion of one person. And that's assuming that he's actually saying what you claim he is.

So the video of him saying it is a photoshop?

He is a known astronaut and in many NASA videos.. If you watch it.... what he is stating is clearly apparent.



How does planning to do something difficult make other difficult things not difficult?

Well, if they were totally different tasks... that would be true. However, leaving the earth, entering space, traveling to another planetary body...... all the same task.

Mars is obviously more difficult. So why is the moon such an impossibility Now...compared to 40 years ago.



I see the point that you'd rather talk about imaginary sharks rather than pictures which you said would convince you until you learned they exist.

Oh well, I guess you missed the metaphor of the sharks being the deadly radiation of the Van Allen Belts, the moon being the closer island and mars being the farthest island....
 
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JacksBratt

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Tell you what, here is a challenge. If you can find the following I will believe you.
#1) Find a PhD physicist from any accredited University who says the moon landing was fake

I get this all the time... find a quote from an "accredited" "university"..

Are you kidding me? Universities and their professors depend on government funding and donations...

These would come to an abrupt halt if this was done... any PhD would be run out of town and discredited.


#2) Find me an engineer in Electrical, Mechanical, Aerodynamics, etc that says the moon landing was fake

I can, and will, cannot for my desktop at work due to filters.
#3) Find me a PhD Mathematician from any accredited university who says the moon landing was fake

See response to #1)

#4) Find me a journal article from any peer reviewed journal who says the moon landing was fake.

See response to #1)


I will happily accept the above proof from Russia or China, which are countries that should be EAGER to prove that America faked the moon landing...[/QUOTE]

Russia will not spill the beans... they were a communist country and were in the middle of a famine. The US sent a large portion of the grain produced by the US to USSR in order to:

1/ leverage Russia's silence
2/ artificially lower the amount of grain available to the US and drive up the prices.
 
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