Who we are determines what we do.

[Calminian]

You are correct to a point, but I would be inclined to say the title of this thread is not entirely true. God does allow us to have limited freedoms in which He holds us accountable for our decisions.

It's interesting that you have posted this in a forum like this, as free will, purpose and morality are contradictions of strict scientific uniformitarianism. Sometimes strict calvinists make the same mistakes that naturalistic uniformitarians do.

With the above in mind, I have a question for you Joey. What caused pre-fallen Adam to sin?

 

[JoeyArnold]

What caused pre-fallen Adam to sin?

Who we are determines choice. Adam made a wrong choice. There are consequences to actions. We can choose Christ or go on our own path. Only God ultimately know who we really are beyond the realms of time. Adam wasn't perfect. Adam was innocent & Adam was not praying that God helped him in everything that he did. When we are blessed by God we sometimes forget about God & we jump off the deep end.

 

[Calminian]

Who we are determines choice. Adam made a wrong choice. There are consequences to actions. We can choose Christ or go on our own path. Only God ultimately know who we really are beyond the realms of time. Adam wasn't perfect. Adam was innocent & Adam was not praying that God helped him in everything that he did. When we are blessed by God we sometimes forget about God & we jump off the deep end.

This is one of my favorite questions to ask those who believe free will (incompatibilistic) does not exist. Adam should be at the center of any such discussion among christians. The theology of Adam is the primary reason I don't accept the idea that all choices are determined by nature.

If your premise is true, that our choices are determined by our nature, then that means Adam would have had to be created, not just innocent, not just neutral, but actually with a sin nature! That nature in turn determined his choice to sin. But this of course is foreign to what Genesis teaches. Adam was not created with a sin nature. God looked at everything He had made, including Adam, and declared it to be very good (Gen. 1:31). And yet Adam still sinned.

Now for certain Adam had a sin nature after his fall, just as we do also. For certain this nature is determinative. And yet at the same time God tells us we will never be tempted beyond our ability to resist (1Cor. 10:13). Again, a baffling revelation to the determinist.

What I would suggest is instead of starting with a philosophical axiom such as "who we are determines choice," why not go to scripture to derive your starting axioms? Many greek philosophers believed in the same axiom. Many theologians have been influenced by them. But the problem I think they've made through the ages is failing to look at these seemingly fireproof axioms in light of biblical revelation. The existence of choice and liability for those choices is undeniable. At the same time, determinism is also shown to be true in many cases.

Thus, from a pure biblical perspective, I would have to alter your premise to: Who we are determines many of our choices, perhaps even the vast majority. But it does not determine all of them.

 

[JoeyArnold]

This is one of my favorite questions to ask those who believe free will (incompatibilistic) does not exist.

Did I say I didn't believe in freewill?

 

[Calminian]

Did I say I didn't believe i freewill?

Incompatibilistic free will. Yes you did state so, albeit probably unaware.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Incompatibilistic free will.

Did I say Adam was created with sin?

 

[St_Worm2]

......the word good is pretty relative.

In one sense, Jesus says that not even he is good. Still, I'd say he's pretty good.

Hey Wally, sorry to go a little off topic here, but where in the Scriptures do we find Jesus claiming that He is not "good"?

Thanks!

--David

"Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good?
No one is good except God alone"
Mark 10:18​

 

[Calminian]

Did I say Adam was created with sin?

no, and most compatibists wouldn't dare. It's one of the reasons I always steer compatiblists to Adam, to get them to reconsider their premise. The book of Genesis really should be at the center of any theological discussion.

But that's the logical conclusion to the premise "who we are determines choice." If you want to stick with that premise, you have some very difficult biblical issues to resolve, starting in Genesis 1. I'm not here to dictate you theology. I just want to bring things to the discussion you may not have considered.

 

[Calminian]

Hey Wally, sorry to go a little off topic here, but where in the Scriptures do we find Jesus claiming that He is not "good"?

Thanks!

--David

"Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good?
No one is good except God alone"
Mark 10:18​

If he's good he's God, and of he's not God, he's not good. this is a great passage to run by JW's on your doorstep.

 

[JoeyArnold]

The premise "who we are determines choice."

The title to this thread, "Who we are determines what we do," is my way of opposing the opposite, that what we do determines who we are. I'm against the concept of earning our way into Heaven through what we do. Adam was created innocent, not perfect. Adam was not created with sin. Adam was not actively asking Christ to help him in his decisions. We are born dogs. When saved, we turn into cats. If a cat barks, doe the cat turn back into a dog?

 

[Calminian]

The title to this thread, "Who we are determines what we do," is my way of opposing the opposite, that what we do determines who we are. I'm against the concept of earning our way into Heaven through what we do. Adam was created innocent, not perfect. Adam was not created with sin. Adam was not actively asking Christ to help him in his decisions. We are born dogs. When saved, we turn into cats. If a cat barks, doe the cat turn back into a dog?

Understood, I'm simply challenging your premise, that who we are determines what we do. It's an axiom that doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of scripture, IMO. You may have had very good intentions with it, but that doesn't make it true. My challenge was just meant to be food for thought for your various theological opinions. You're free to take it or leave it (pun intended).

 

[JoeyArnold]

In regards to the idea of who we are determines what we do.

Do you believe that what we do determines who we are?

 

[Calminian]

Do you believe that what we do determines who we are?

Not entirely, depending what you mean by "who we are." But rejecting God certainly has its consequences. And seeking God certainly has its rewards. (Heb. 11:6) And if those in any way constitute who we are, then our actions do play a role. These at least constitute who we are positionally.

I think you and I would agree on this simple truth. We deserve no meritorious credit for our salvation. Conversely the lost deserve all blame for their reprobation. If that's your primary point, you and I are in full agreement, even if we do arrive at it differently.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Not entirely, depending what you mean by "who we are."

If we are good enough, will God let us into Heaven?

 

[Calminian]

If we are good enough, will God let us into Heaven?

Of course. But who's good enough?

 

[JoeyArnold]

Of course. But who's good enough?

Some people wish to earn their way into Heaven. That is the main point to this thread. If what we do determines who we are to the extent of salvation then it degrades the uniqueness & importance of Christ paying the debt of sin, which we can't pay, for us. We will only sow what we reap. We will only reproduce after our own kind. We are born in the family of Satan. We are of that kind to some extent. Of course we can do some good to some extent. Of course what we do can determine who we are to some extent, but we ultimately need Christ to make us into who we are so that we can do based off who we are in Christ.

 

[Theofane]

Who we are determines what we do.

What about our choices? Do our choices not determine what we do?

 

[JoeyArnold]

What about our choices? Do our choices not determine what we do?

I asked if who we are determines what we do. You respond by mentioning choices. You ask if our choices determines what we do. Yes, to some extent, choices dictates action. Choices are chosen from the heart, which is the essence of who we are.

 

[Calminian]

Some people wish to earn their way into Heaven. That is the main point to this thread. If what we do determines who we are to the extent of salvation then it degrades the uniqueness & importance of Christ paying the debt of sin, which we can't pay, for us. We will only sow what we reap. We will only reproduce after our own kind. We are born in the family of Satan. We are of that kind to some extent. Of course we can do some good to some extent. Of course what we do can determine who we are to some extent, but we ultimately need Christ to make us into who we are so that we can do based off who we are in Christ.

I don't think I have any argument there.

 

[JoeyArnold]

What about our choices? Do our choices not determine what we do?

Correct. Choices contributes to actions, results, consequences, behaviors? Yes.