Who Started the Great Schism?

[ArmyMatt]

All this has been answered previously, so it is obvious you are simply ignoring the responses.
They had a strong kinship to Rome because

• They were culturally Roman
• Rome was where Paul had been writing from before his martyrdom. They already had established lines of communication with the Church in Rome.
• They had a strong kinship and respect for Clement, who had been a close companion of Paul's.

There is nothing which suggests their going to Rome for advice had anything to do with Peter having been there. That is something that has been made up by Catholic apologists.

With regards to your last question, no one thought to call a council until after the persecution had ended, and then it was Emperor Constantine who called it and provided the means for it to occur.

this.

 

[Not David]

IF the POPE allowed it under the Franks, the Nocks, the Lunes, the Moons, the toots or tats... the POPE allowed it and was given the keys to do so.

Jesus did NOT say, Peter those keys are only contingent upon a council and The Father In Heaven and Myself need a council too.

You know, I thought only the Protestants were the ones who made up History buy seeing your post made me change my mind.

 

[Dewi Sant]

in its time, the breach of communion between the Patriarchates was understood as one of many scuffles which would have some sort of resolution.
here we are, almost 1000 years hence, and rather than healing as wound does, the scabs have been picked and irritated ever since; the body ecclesiastic too proud to allow the unsightly, but essential scar tissue to heal the rift.

Now, I never expect (though I may hope) for unity in my life, but I can't help but wonder what the state of the church will be on the millenium of this unfortunate divorce. 2054, any plans? It already seems too late to prepare anything, but a council in Rome or Constantinople would be nice, or maybe somewhere neutral...the moon maybe?
A conclave could be a way of doing it. Lock all the bishops in a room and don't let them out till they have reached a decision. Could be a long time though

 

[Dewi Sant]

found this interesting thread on the topic of what it may take for reunification in 2054

2054 project

I admit upfront that this is a fantasy of mine: but hear me out. 1054 AD is the "official" date of the formal schism between the Sees of Rome & Constantinople. However, the estrangement between East & West had been occurring long before that, certainly by the time of the rise of the Carolingians...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Lukaris]

Personally, I believe any valid reunion would have to be a miracle. For this to be though, how would we be able to know for sure? I believe the most any Christian can do is put their trust in Jesus Christ and live by the Gospel as best as possible.

The Holy Spirit, I believe, works among all Christians ( John 15:26-27, John 16:1-15 etc.). If we strive to keep the Lord’s commandments ( John 14:15-18), the Lord will send the Holy Spirit.

It is usually not possible for the non Orthodox Christians and non Christians to be Orthodox. I believe the Lord will come to those He knows better than we do ( John 3:19-21, John 14:18).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Personally, I believe any valid reunion would have to be a miracle.

yep, the stuff always in the news isn’t ever what will lead to actual unity. although, I personally do have hope for our non-Chalcedonian brothers.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

The issue of reconciliation between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics is more that the filioque clause, papal infallibility, unleavened bread and whatever headline difference one may see. There are a host of other differences.

One is the 'brown scapular". Any Orthodox heard of that? The link is below. Note #3 which says "[The Virgin] Mary told him: “It must be a sign and a privilege for you and for all Carmelites: Whoever dies wearing the scapular will not suffer eternal fire.” It smacks of paganism and is idolatry. That suggests the "Co-Redemptrix" belief of the Catholics, which I think the Catholics have swept under the rug recently. ...until they choose to reclaim it?

A lot of this stuff is from the 19th century. I think the Roman Church was feeling its oats. Italians had gained control of the Italian peninsula. Other history emboldened them to stretch the boundaries. (Doesn't matter - someone needing a doctoral thesis topic, have at it).

The "Holy Family" is another, as if our salvation has anything to do with the nature of Christ's upbringing. The "Sacred Heart of Jesus" has its own mini-story.

The pattern is injecting extraneous concepts and objects that have no bearing on our salvation or standing before God. These are not just differences of expression. Rather they are serious stumbling blocks to understanding each other. It is a alien mindset.

The point being that I as an Orthodox layperson do not want to be linked to such clutter. Yes, it is clutter. In my view even if the headline differences are resolved, that will not persuade me to think of Catholics as equals. I am all for dialogue, but these matters need to be addressed.

12 keys to using the brown scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel

The Blessed Mother is said to have given the scapular to St. Simon Stock on July 16, 1251.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

 

[Lukaris]

I am increasingly believing our witness comes down to the level & health of the parish. Hopefully a balance of vibrant, emphasis of local faith in cooperation with the functional necessity of hierarchy ? Doing the right things locally and the hierarchy in higher places. Hope this makes sense, Hopefully the catechumens will find a good parish.


Prayer for the catechumens;


O Lord our God, who dwellest in the heavens, and lookest down upon all thy works, look down upon thy servants, the catechumens, who have bowed their necks before thee, and grant them a light yoke. Make them honorable members of thy holy Church, and vouchsafe unto them the laver of regeneration, the forgiveness of sins, and the robe of incorruption, unto the knowledge of thee, our true God.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

I am increasingly believing our witness comes down to the level & health of the parish. Hopefully a balance of vibrant, emphasis of local faith in cooperation with the functional necessity of hierarchy ? Doing the right things locally and the hierarchy in higher places. Hope this makes sense, Hopefully the catechumens will find a good parish.


Prayer for the catechumens;


O Lord our God, who dwellest in the heavens, and lookest down upon all thy works, look down upon thy servants, the catechumens, who have bowed their necks before thee, and grant them a light yoke. Make them honorable members of thy holy Church, and vouchsafe unto them the laver of regeneration, the forgiveness of sins, and the robe of incorruption, unto the knowledge of thee, our true God.

Did you mean to post this here?

 

[concretecamper]

The issue of reconciliation between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics is more that the filioque clause, papal infallibility, unleavened bread and whatever headline difference one may see. There are a host of other differences.

One is the 'brown scapular". Any Orthodox heard of that? The link is below. Note #3 which says "[The Virgin] Mary told him: “It must be a sign and a privilege for you and for all Carmelites: Whoever dies wearing the scapular will not suffer eternal fire.” It smacks of paganism and is idolatry. That suggests the "Co-Redemptrix" belief of the Catholics, which I think the Catholics have swept under the rug recently. ...until they choose to reclaim it?

A lot of this stuff is from the 19th century. I think the Roman Church was feeling its oats. Italians had gained control of the Italian peninsula. Other history emboldened them to stretch the boundaries. (Doesn't matter - someone needing a doctoral thesis topic, have at it).

The "Holy Family" is another, as if our salvation has anything to do with the nature of Christ's upbringing. The "Sacred Heart of Jesus" has its own mini-story.

The pattern is injecting extraneous concepts and objects that have no bearing on our salvation or standing before God. These are not just differences of expression. Rather they are serious stumbling blocks to understanding each other. It is a alien mindset.

The point being that I as an Orthodox layperson do not want to be linked to such clutter. Yes, it is clutter. In my view even if the headline differences are resolved, that will not persuade me to think of Catholics as equals. I am all for dialogue, but these matters need to be addressed.

12 keys to using the brown scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel

The Blessed Mother is said to have given the scapular to St. Simon Stock on July 16, 1251.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Tell us how you really feel

 

[Lukaris]

Did you mean to post this here?

Yes, but I think I was mixed up in retrospect.

 

[prodromos]

Tell us how you really feel

It's another gospel.
Trusting in a talisman instead of living a life of repentance. Devoting yourself to parts of Christ's anatomy instead of to Christ. The Mary who has appeared to Catholics seems to be a completely different person to the Mary who has appeared to Orthodox throughout the Church's history.

 

[concretecamper]

It's another gospel.
Trusting in a talisman instead of living a life of repentance. Devoting yourself to parts of Christ's anatomy instead of to Christ. The Mary who has appeared to Catholics seems to be a completely different person to the Mary who has appeared to Orthodox throughout the Church's history.

Deleted. Sorry, didn't realize this was in the EO forum.

 

[prodromos]

Deleted. Sorry, didn't realize this was in the EO forum.

It's St Justin Martyr's. You are free to debate us here if you want as long as you keep it civilized

 

[RileyG]

It's another gospel.
Trusting in a talisman instead of living a life of repentance. Devoting yourself to parts of Christ's anatomy instead of to Christ. The Mary who has appeared to Catholics seems to be a completely different person to the Mary who has appeared to Orthodox throughout the Church's history.

Regarding the Brown Scapular, I do not know which Pope said it, but he essentially stated it wasn't "magical," one could not live in unrepentant sin, die in scapular, and expect to go to heaven.

There's a lot of medieval superstition regarding some sacramentals from rad-trads

#2. Regarding the Sacred Heart. It's essentially Christ's great love for humanity, and some people took it to extreme.

That being said, I am getting off topic, and will not comment further.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

Regarding the Brown Scapular, I do not know which Pope said it, but he essentially stated it wasn't "magical," one could not live in unrepentant sin, die in scapular, and expect to go to heaven.

There's a lot of medieval superstition regarding some sacramentals from rad-trads

#2. Regarding the Sacred Heart. It's essentially Christ's great love for humanity, and some people took it to extreme.

That being said, I am getting off topic, and will not comment further.

The point being that the differences go well beyond the "headline" differences most often cited. Even if Pope Francis can bring back some semblance of a Conciliar governance to Rome - itself a miracle - how does that Church deal with its past? There is so much to address and to amend. What message do the reform bishops provide their Faithful that are bathed in scapulas, miraculous medals and other such distractions? If it is God's Will....

 

[Not David]

This website is usually pretty accurate.

Parishes | Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States of America

The Assembly's Directory of Orthodox Christian Parishes is the official listing of canonical Eastern Orthodox Christian Parishes in the United States of America. The Website of Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States of America

www.assemblyofbishops.org

 

[Light of the East]

Succinct summary of the video

Actually, to put a more fine point on it, it would not be Rome as much as it was the Frankish clergy who acted more like pagans than Christians.

" 'In the time of Pippin of Herestal (697-715) and Charles Martel (715-741), many of the Franks who replaced Roman bishops were military leaders who, according to Saint Boniface, shed the blood of Christians like that of the pagans.' Baptism does not automatically make you a saint on earth."

FRANKS, ROMANS, FEUDALISM, AND DOCTRINE Part 1

 

[notRusskiyMir]

Fr. Panayiotis Papageorgiou, Ph.D., was invited to Lutherstadt-Wittenburg in Germany, Ground Zero of the Protestant Reformation, to offer a paper on the relationship of the Reformers with the Orthodox Church in the 16th century at a Conference "Reformation Institute" May 8, 2017.

Father Papageorgiou contends that it was Charlemagne who initiated changes in western practices and beliefs in 880 to assert his authority over all Christians, making the break with the East inevitable.

Some suggest that original Islam was bent to assert the authority and reign of caliph Abd al-Malik, builder of the Dome of the Rock shrine in Jerusalem.

If you have 1.3 hours, it is a good presentation. The Protestant Reformation and the Orthodox Christian East

Father Papageorgiou's church is in Marietta, Georgia, just above Atlanta. He is under the EP. He is a scientist with advanced degree.