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Heaps...what question was that?
For the Church is made up of people that are born of the Spirit of God. All being the royal Priesthood and all being part of the Body of Christ. We are joined to Christs body by grace through Faith and that not of ourselves but the gift of God. Having been born again so that the Holy Spirit in us bears witness with our Spirit that we are the Children of God where by we cry Abba Father. Knowing that Christ became sin for us. Knowing that we have eternal life just as scripture tells us. Not by works that anyone should boast but because of His great Love for us God sent His Son into the world so that we may have life and that life abundantly.
Wow, nice to see the Orthodox and Catholics sitting at the same "supper table" here.
Daniel 11:27 and Two of them, the Kings, heart of them to evil-mischief, and on a table one lie they shall speak. And not she shall prosper, that further End/07093 qets to appointed-time/04150 mow`ed.
Ezekiel 37:22 And I make them to nation, one in land in mountains of Israel; and a King, one, shall become for all of them to King: and not he/they shall be furthur to two of Nations, and not they shall be divided furthur to two of Kingdoms furthur
http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html
We have what we have in the scripture for the very fact that is all we need to be fully equipped. We do not need to read religous writings for this.No, fortunately that is false. It is gone to you because you refuse to hear the what the Holy Spirit said through the early Church.
Actually I have what the Holy Spirit said to the earliest of the Church via the Apostles.. These are those that built on the foundation of Christ. The sent ones chosen by God.The foundation of what Christ wanted taught to His people His sheep. These are what we are to build upon. Not on hear say handed down from mouth to mouth through fallable man kind of like the gossip game.
There is no doubt that what you need for salvation can be found in the Bible but there are more blessings which you may miss out on, which come through the Holy Spirit, which can be found in the early Church.
The carzy thing about all of this is that you accept most of what the Church canonized around 400 AD but reject all of that between the Apostles and the canonization.
Because they were never part of the cannon. The Jewish Cannon did not ever accept these books as scripture for a very good reason.
Yarddog
When fallable men read the scripture with an already fixed mind on what it is they believe they can use parts of scripture to back up what it is they want to believe. We see this with those who believe in the successors of the Apostles.I don't understand what you mean. Scripture has clearly led Christians to different conclusions, and they ALL feel as though the Spirit has led them to said conclusions. How are we supposed to know which conclusions are the "right" ones? Everyone who feels convicted of a certain position, feels so based on Scriptures they have read. Does the Holy Spirit really lead people to very, VERY divergent conclusions, some of which even contradict each other?
We have what we have in the scripture for the very fact that is all we need to be fully equipped. We do not need to read religous writings for this.
Although when reading and allowing God through the Holy Spirit to teach us we can see the error in alot of these claims because those of us that allow the Holy Spirit to teach us do not try to understand with out mind but allow The Holy Spirit to quicken His word to our heart. We also allow the scriptures to be in authority over us and not us over scripture.
Where does it say we are to follow after man and what they believe to be truth when Scripture tells us we have no need for men to teach us but the annointing in us He is the Spirit of truth.Yes, that is what the 30,000 different Protestant Churches say! The problem here is that Solo-Scriptural is not Scriptural to begin with, Christ gave the authority to Church not a book. If the Church was the ultimate authority back then in determining which books belong "where", under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then she is the ultimate authority in telling us the correct interpretation and which doctrines is "true or false" based upon on Holy Tradition, correct? You submit to the authority of the Church to tell you what should be included in the Holy Bible, right?
The Church is not the authority but the body.Christ is the head of the Church and not tradtion.
The Holy Spirit is the teacher, but he use the Church.
Where do you ever see in scripture that God uses the church? God fills all of His people with the Holy Spirit for all of His true followers are the church the body. It is not a certain sect just claiming they are.God has always used men to speak through His truth. We have the Prophets of old. Then we have His son.. Then we have the Apostles who Christ chose to be His mouths with the gifts and callings that God gave them.
May I ask why is your [and your church] interpretation of Scriptures the correct one? The slogan that goes "I am lead by the Spirit to the truth and thus I do not need men" does not cut it since over 30,000 different Protestant Churches are saying that, and all of them can't be right! You can speak to a Pentecostal or a Baptize or a "non-denominational" and they will all say there have the truth because the Holy Spirit is inside them. Hum...Is God the author of confusion?
This amount you keep putting up has no effect on me. LOL For Jesus sheep know His voice and no other will they follow. He is known By His people because He lives in them through His Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit is the one who teach the Church the truth [and it is He who provide us with the correct interpretation of Scriptures], where is he is now? Is he in the Baptize church? The Pentecostal Church? A "non-denominational" [oxymoron] Church? The Mormons? The Seventh Day Adventist? The List can go on.....
The Holy Spirit abides in all of Christ true sheep. It is written Christ in us the Hope of Glory.
Two reasonable people [Christians] can read Scriptures, and they both will end up having two conflicting understanding of the same book being read, all this with the Holy Spirit! So it is clear that we need the Authority of the Church, for the Spirit teach us through the Church. So who has the correct understanding of Scriptures today since every Protestant Christian is preaching conflicting teachings all based on "Solo-Scriptural"?
The problem is Mamaz is that Scriptures is not your authority but the way you understand a particular Scripture is. In reality, you and other Protestants follow what you believe is the correct interpretation and then you cry "The Holy Spirit lead me to this interpretation; I have the Holy Spirit dude" yet the same guy next to you is a Christian, endowed with the Holy Spirit, and he came with a different conclusion then you. All Protestants claim to follow the same authority, and all Protestants are lead to different conclusions on what a Scripture means. So which conclusions is the correct one Mamaz?
The Bible disproves Solo-Scriptural:
Saint Paul tells the Corinthians, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).
Saint Paul told the Early Christians to follow what was written and was not written [those teachings which was passed along by the Holy Apostles that did not make it through written form] in 2 Thes 2:15. So why did Saint Paul told the Early Christians to not to follow what was only written [Scriptures]?
Mamaz, Christ started a Church to preach and guide people. Even Saint Paul said in Ephesians that God gave certain men the ability to teach his word correctly.
The Holy Spirit was sent down on the Apostles on Pentecost, and they were given the charisma to serve and lead the Church. This charisma they passed on to their successors, the Bishops, who in turn passed it on to their own successors, even to this present day [2 Tim 2:2]. The Apostles and the Bibles lead the Church decades before any NT Scriptures written down, and more decades before the Church could agree on what belong in "The Holy Bible". Christ has guided His Church to all truth since the era of the Holy Apostles. Most Christians today what to follow what some 21st Century preacher teach instead of listening to what the Early Church taught in the 1st and 2nd Century.
But who is the Holy Spirit teaching today, since all Protestant Christians are claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit teach us through the Church, since the Church existed before any NT Scripture was ever written. All Protestant have "continue in His word" and all claim different things, so the real question is who [Bob, John, Liza, Lizzy] is the Holy Spirit teaching today?
Solo-Scriptural has cause more problems than good Mamaz, it has cause more splits in the Body of Christ than the amount of hairs I got in my head.
I do not rely merely on my own interpretation [Like the Ethiopian told St Phillip, how can I understand what I read in the Scriptures unless someone explains them to me?], but the Holy Spirit-filled Tradition of the Living Church from the past 2,000 years. We need to based our understanding of Scriptures on what the Church has taught for the past 2,000 years.
Blessings,
Ramon
P.S: So the ultimate question is Mamaz: Where in the Bible does it teach that one should follow only what was written [Scriptures] (or Solo-Scriptural)?
It is never written that we are to interpret scripture.. We see in the scripture where it is Jesus That opens the eyes of His believers not to interpret but understand the scriptures.Where does it say in scripture that there's only scripture to be interpreted?
Where does it say we are to follow after man and what they believe to be truth when Scripture tells us we have no need for men to teach us but the annointing in us He is the Spirit of truth.
All I hear from you is the same over and over myself.. So kettle I am pot...Heaps...
The one about where in Scripture does it say to only rely on scripture?
Scripture tells us that it is sufficient to fully equip the man of God. Jesus tells us that His word is truth and He always brought people back to it is written. So since Jesus brought people back to it is written but never to tradtion I would say that is pretty Important.
Can you show me where Jesus brought men to recognize tradtion?
We are not all joined. Not all who cry "Lord! Lord!" will be saved.
All of His true followers are joined with the seal of the Holy Spirit. We all are known by Him and we all know Him personally.. He Lives in us.Those who follow after tradition and follow after their own gain will indeed be told.. I never knew you. For we are to know God and Jesus Christ personally..
And faith without works is dead. Recall where Jesus asks "when I was cold, did you clothe me?"
By the way, where's "Royal priesthood" appear in the Scriptures?
1Pe 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
1Pe 2:7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
1Pe 2:8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Pe 2:10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
But for the most part your 'discussion' is simply to re-state your position, then again, again, and again.
You actually add nothing else.
All I hear from you is the same over and over myself.. So kettle I am pot...Heaps...
The one about where in Scripture does it say to only rely on scripture?
Scripture tells us that it is sufficient to fully equip the man of God. Jesus tells us that His word is truth and He always brought people back to it is written. So since Jesus brought people back to it is written but never to tradtion I would say that is pretty Important.
Can you show me where Jesus brought men to recognize tradtion?
We are not all joined. Not all who cry "Lord! Lord!" will be saved.
All of His true followers are joined with the seal of the Holy Spirit. We all are known by Him and we all know Him personally.. He Lives in us.Those who follow after tradition and follow after their own gain will indeed be told.. I never knew you. For we are to know God and Jesus Christ personally..
And faith without works is dead. Recall where Jesus asks "when I was cold, did you clothe me?"
By the way, where's "Royal priesthood" appear in the Scriptures?
1Pe 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
1Pe 2:7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
1Pe 2:8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Pe 2:10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
But for the most part your 'discussion' is simply to re-state your position, then again, again, and again.
You actually add nothing else.
Since we see that the Scriptures are pure.. Why would you need anything else? We see Paul telling us that ALL scripture is inspired of God..not just the OT but all.We see Peter calling Pauls writings scripture.. We see where he wrote to Timothy this.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Christ is teaching each and everyone of His true believers.. Personally.Again, you have not answer none of the questions and are just using circular logic.
Where in Scriptures does it teach that only what was written is what we need to be fully equipped? Where in Scriptures does it teach Solo-Scriptura? Where in Scriptures does it teach that we are only to rely on Scriptures? Why is that your doctrine contradict 2 Thes 2:15 and others which clearly refutes Solo-Scriptura?
Are you going to answer the questions at hand one by one or are you going to ignore each and evey question and just post "1 or 2 sentences" response, run away, return, post another "1 or 2 sentences" response and then run away. Is this the game you playing?
But who is the Holy Spirit teaching today, since all Protestant Christians are claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit teach us through the Church, since the Church existed before any NT Scripture was ever written. All Protestant have "continue in His word" and all claim different things, so the real question is who [Bob, John, Liza, Lizzy] is the Holy Spirit teaching today? All Protestant Christians are during what you suggest, and yet all have came to different conclusions. Do you and your Church interpret Scriptures correctly?
If the Holy Spirit is the one who teach the Church the truth [and it is He who provide us with the correct interpretation of Scriptures], where is he is now? Is he in the Baptize church? The Pentecostal Church? A "non-denominational" [oxymoron] Church? The Mormons? The Seventh Day Adventist? The List can go on.....
Blessings,
Ramon
Where is the word "only" in there? Where in Scriptures does it teach Solo-Scriptura? Where in Scriptures does it teach that we are only to rely on Scriptures? Why is that your doctrine contradict 2 Thes 2:15 and others which clearly refutes Solo-Scriptura?
Christ is teaching each and everyone of His true believers.. Personally.For He lives in us..
Where do you see that we are to follow after hearsay and gossip?
Where Does Jesus lead us to anything other than it is written? Where does Jesus ever teach that tradtion is something to cling too? Where does Jesus ever teach anything other than His word, Himself and the Father and Holy Spirit to be truth?
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