Who is the woman in Rev 12

[HisBody]

Thank you. The wine in the cup at the Last Supper - real or comparison?
The bread used at the Last Supper - real or comparison?

Comparison to what - the Body and Blood of Christ?
It's the REAL thing.

Why?, because Jesus didn't only declare it at the Last Supper - He taught that His flesh was true food and blood was true drink in the Bread of Life Discourse (John 6:55).

He never said that He was TRULY a door or a vine.

 

[elliott95]

I would agree but we need to take it a step farther starting with Isreal, then Mary and then ultimately the persecuted church awaiting the Lord’s second coming.

If Israel, then Jerusalem too, often portrayed in Old Testament writings as God's bride.
And if Jerusalem, no longer the unfaithful harlot, but the Virgin Mother, redeemed to God, made immaculate even, through her offering of Christ.
The theology of the Woman in Revelation, touches on history and biography, but it is never confined to any singular biography.

 

[Markwsmith2020]

Well everyone BBBBBBB has made an infallible definition, thank you!

The child who rules nations is Jesus and His mother is Mary!

Mary is in the glories of heaven clothed with the sun... Etc..

When did the children of Israel ever have the testimony of Jesus Christ?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well everyone BBBBBBB has made an infallible definition, thank you!

The child who rules nations is Jesus and His mother is Mary!

Mary is in the glories of heaven clothed with the sun... Etc..

When did the children of Israel ever have the testimony of Jesus Christ?

When did I ever state my definition was infallible? The only Christian leader I know who asserts infallibility is the Pope.

 

[Markwsmith2020]

The woman represents Israel. Period. End of discussion. sounds like an infallible definition to me, still did not answer my questions

 

[Markwsmith2020]

But Jesus Christ, the Bible and the Apostles says Mary is the mother of God! But you don't so!

 

[bbbbbbb]

The children of Israel were given the testimony of Jesus Christ through the prophets, don'cha know?

 

[bbbbbbb]

But Jesus Christ, the Bible and the Apostles says Mary is the mother of God! But you don't so!

God is eternal and uncreated. He has no beginning nor end, nor father nor mother. Do you believe otherwise?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The children of Israel were given the testimony of Jesus Christ through the prophets, don'cha know?

Without the Old Testament testimony of Jesus Christ we would have no means of determining who He really was. There have been multitudes of people who have claimed to be God or the Son of God.

 

[HisBody]

Without the Old Testament testimony of Jesus Christ we would have no means of determining who He really was. There have been multitudes of people who have claimed to be God or the Son of God.

Yup.

ONE of those people was a man named Simon bar Kokhba, who led a failed second Jewish Revolt against the Romans in AD 132. He was pronounced the "Messiah" by a Rabbi and false prophet named Akiba.

ALL Protestants should know about this man because he advocated for the removal of the 7 Deuterocanonical Books of the OT, which were part of the OPEN Jewish Canon before and during the life of Christ.

This revised, edited Canon is the same OT that you will find in Protestant Bibles . . .

 

[HisBody]

God is eternal and uncreated. He has no beginning nor end, nor father nor mother. Do you believe otherwise?

Actually - Jesus is God and He has a mother.
Her name is Mary.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually - Jesus is God and He has a mother.
Her name is Mary.

So, I take it that you believe that God is not eternal and was created. His beginning was with Mary apparently.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yup.

ONE of those people was a man named Simon bar Kokhba, who led a failed second Jewish Revolt against the Romans in AD 132. He was pronounced the "Messiah" by a Rabbi and false prophet named Akiba.

ALL Protestants should know about this man because he advocated for the removal of the 7 Deuterocanonical Books of the OT, which were part of the OPEN Jewish Canon before and during the life of Christ.

This revised, edited Canon is the same OT that you will find in Protestant Bibles . . .

Excellent. What wondrous things do you find in the deutercanonical books that cannot be found in the other OT books?

 

[HisBody]

So, I take it that you believe that God is not eternal and was created. His beginning was with Mary apparently.

No - I didn't say Mary was the Mother of the Trinity.
She is the Mother of Jesus.

Just as the Ark of the Covenant carried symbols of God's power within it - Mary, the Ark of the NEW Covenant carried GOD in hr womb. That is, unless you deny the deity of Jesus . . .

 

[bbbbbbb]

No - I didn't say Mary was the Mother of the Trinity.
She is the Mother of Jesus.

Just as the Ark of the Covenant carried symbols of God's power within it - Mary, the Ark of the NEW Covenant carried GOD in hr womb. That is, unless you deny the deity of Jesus . . .

So, do you believe that Mary is the Mother of God, or not?

 

[HisBody]

Excellent. What wondrous things do you find in the deutercanonical books that cannot be found in the other OT books?

For one - we see the efficacy of prayers for the dead (2 Macc. 42-46).
We also see over 150 quotes, allusions and references to those Books in the New Testament, showing us that these Books were considered Scripture by Jesus and the NT writers.
Here are a few examples:
- Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
- In Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons as described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
- Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
- Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation

 

[HisBody]

So, do you believe that Mary is the Mother of God, or not?

Do you believe that Jesus is God - or not?

 

[bbbbbbb]

For one - we see the efficacy of prayers for the dead (2 Macc. 42-46).
We also see over 150 quotes, allusions and references to those Books in the New Testament, showing us that these Books were considered Scripture by Jesus and the NT writers.
Here are a few examples:
- Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
- In Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons as described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
- Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
- Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation

Aha. From five verses we can construct an entire theology of Purgatory (although most Catholics now deny that). On that topic, is Purgatory a place where departed Catholics go to endure torment and suffering to pay for their temporal sins or is it an experience where Catholics enjoy a refreshing washing away of their temporal sins?

 

[HisBody]

Aha. From five verses we can construct an entire theology of Purgatory (although most Catholics now deny that). On that topic, is Purgatory a place where departed Catholics go to endure torment and suffering to pay for their temporal sins or is it an experience where Catholics enjoy a refreshing washing away of their temporal sins?

First of all - Purgatory isn't necessarily a place - but a state of existence. It is a final cleansing and before entering into Heaven.

Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING impure or unclean can enter Heaven. It says nothing about Luther's little "snow-covered dunghills" sneaking in past God because they are "covered" in Christ's righteousness. We are MADE righteous before entering.

While we're at it, you say that we build an entire doctrine around a few verses. Don't Protestants do the SAME thing with Sola Scriptura? As a matter of fact - there is far LESS Scriptural evidence for that false doctrine than there is for Purgatory . . .

Now - I gave you several other examples of the Deuterocanonicals being used as Scripture in the NT. What do you have to say about those verses??

 

[HisBody]

Aha. From five verses we can construct an entire theology of Purgatory (although most Catholics now deny that).

Ummmm, where do you get the idea that only "5 verses" support the doctrine of Purgatory??

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.