Who is the woman in Rev 12

[bbbbbbb]

First of all - Purgatory isn't necessarily a place - but a state of existence. It is a final cleansing and before entering into Heaven.

Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING impure or unclean can enter Heaven. It says nothing about Luther's little "snow-covered dunghills" sneaking in past God because they are "covered" in Christ's righteousness. We are MADE righteous before entering.

While we're at it, you say that we build an entire doctrine around a few verses. Don't Protestants do the SAME thing with Sola Scriptura? As a matter of fact - there is far LESS Scriptural evidence for that false doctrine than there is for Purgatory . . .

Now - I gave you several other examples of the Deuterocanonicals being used as Scripture in the NT. What do you have to say about those verses??

Thanks. What is the point of indulgences if they do not shorten one's suffering in Purgatory?

 

[HisBody]

Thanks. What is the point of indulgences if they do not shorten one's suffering in Purgatory?

I'll answer that as soon as you stop running and answer one of MY questions
This is not a 1-way interview.

What do you have to say about the other examples that I gave you regarding the Deuterocanonical Books being used as Scripture in the NT?

And, where do you get the idea that only "5 verses" support the doctrine of Purgatory??

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'll answer that as soon as you stop running and answer one of MY questions
This is not a 1-way interview.

What do you have to say about the other examples that I gave you regarding the Deuterocanonical Books being used as Scripture in the NT?

And, where do you get the idea that only "5 verses" support the doctrine of Purgatory??

As a matter of fact, I dedicated an entire thread to addressing these alleged verses. If you are interested, you can go back and find the thread. It was on the General Theology board.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Thanks. What is the point of indulgences if they do not shorten one's suffering in Purgatory?

According to Catholicism, that's exactly what they're for.
Myths about Indulgences | Catholic Answers

 

[bbbbbbb]

According to Catholicism, that's exactly what they're for.
Myths about Indulgences | Catholic Answers

Therein lies the rub. If, as contemporary Catholics assert, purgation (no longer Purgatory) is merely an experience and not at all a place similar to a torture chamber in which an inmate is sent to suffer for his temporal sins, then indulgences are quite meaningless and useless.

 

[Kelly McArthur]

Who is the woman clothed with the sun?

The woman clothed with the sun appears to be the one who is in the light.

 

[Kelly McArthur]

I love the illogic of this theology. It is so extremely creative. One can easily launch into similar flights of fancy, for example -

Jesus Christ was (and is) blind. How do we know? Jesus Christ is God, God is love, love is blind, therefore Jesus Christ is blind.

Or, Ray Charles is God. Ray Charles was blind, love is blind, God is love, therefore Ray Charles is God.

Or, John the Baptist had multiple heads. How do we know. We have the physical remains of multiple skulls, all of which have been declared, without controversy, by the Roman Catholic Church, to be authentic, genuine skulls of John the Baptism.

How about this one, all gods came from chaos and Christ is above chaos. God created both good and evil and satan stands before his throne day and night, meaning the two are together always.

What if Jesus is the only straight way to the Father and that might mean God is not our Father because if God was our Father and everyone prays to him why do we need Jesus?

 

[bbbbbbb]

How about this one, all gods came from chaos and Christ is above chaos. God created both good and evil and satan stands before his throne day and night, meaning the two are together always.

What if Jesus is the only straight way to the Father and that might mean God is not our Father because if God was our Father and everyone prays to him why do we need Jesus?

Yes, an excellent example.

 

[HisBody]

As a matter of fact, I dedicated an entire thread to addressing these alleged verses. If you are interested, you can go back and find the thread. It was on the General Theology board.

No - I'm interested on what you said in THIS thread.

I'm not going to go and search the entire forum for a comment you made.
Just repeat it here.

Where do you get the idea that there are only 5 verses on Purgatory??

 

[HisBody]

Therein lies the rub. If, as contemporary Catholics assert, purgation (no longer Purgatory) is merely an experience and not at all a place similar to a torture chamber in which an inmate is sent to suffer for his temporal sins, then indulgences are quite meaningless and useless.

Wrong.
Shorten one's suffering and shorten one's time are two different things.

The Church doesn't and has never taught that Final Purgation or Purgatory is a matter of time - but of intensity. So, ndulgences would not be "useless", as you assert.

 

[Phil 1:21]

For one - we see the efficacy of prayers for the dead (2 Macc. 42-46).

Incorrect.

Efficacy: capacity for producing a desired result or effect; effectiveness.
the definition of efficacy

2 Maccabees 12:42-46 only recounts the act of people praying for the dead. It says noting of the efficacy of such actions. It also says nothing about purgatory.

 

[HisBody]

Incorrect.

Efficacy: capacity for producing a desired result or effect; effectiveness.
the definition of efficacy

2 Maccabees 12:42-46 only recounts the act of people praying for the dead. It says noting of the efficacy of such actions. It also says nothing about purgatory.

Okay - then I will say that 2 Macc. 12:42-46 shows the practice - and defense of praying for the dead.
This is a practice that Orthodox Jews do to this day.

2 Macc. 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

Jesus also said:

Matt. 12:3
“Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”.

This indicates – as does Macc. 12:42-46 that sins CAN be forgiven AFTER death – in the next age.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Okay - then I will say that 2 Macc. 12:42-46 shows the practice - and defense of praying for the dead.
This is a practice that Orthodox Jews do to this day.

Practice, yes. Defense, no. Orthodox Jews also deny the divinity of Christ, so I'm not sure playing that card is helpful to you case here.

Matt. 12:3
“Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”.

This indicates – as does Macc. 12:42-46 that sins CAN be forgiven AFTER death – in the next age.

Only by some creative eisegesis. Try reading Luke 16:19-26, straight from the lips of Jesus.

 

[Kelly McArthur]

When compared with OT imagery and considering where Jesus (the child born from the woman) came from, there's no doubt in my mind that the woman represents Israel.

Why, after Jacob wrestled all night to know, was his name changed to Israel?

 

[Kelly McArthur]

I love the illogic of this theology. It is so extremely creative. One can easily launch into similar flights of fancy, for example -

Jesus Christ was (and is) blind. How do we know? Jesus Christ is God, God is love, love is blind, therefore Jesus Christ is blind.

Or, Ray Charles is God. Ray Charles was blind, love is blind, God is love, therefore Ray Charles is God.

Or, John the Baptist had multiple heads. How do we know. We have the physical remains of multiple skulls, all of which have been declared, without controversy, by the Roman Catholic Church, to be authentic, genuine skulls of John the Baptism.

This expression "love is blind" is first found in Chaucer's Merchant's Tale, circa 1405:

For loue is blynd alday and may nat see.

Soon every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

[Kelly McArthur]

It doesn't.
A TYPE by definition is a precursor or comparison something or someone else.

Is Jesus a door (John 10:9-16)?
Is Jesus a vine (John 15:5)?
Is Israel a Woman (Rev. 12:1)??

The woman has conceived correctly, she has the Light, she has been crowned with the 12 stars; she brings forth the male-child and he will be caught up to the throne; all minds are made son's with Christ Jesus and all souls are made bodies called brides and when the two come together as one we are neither male or female, we are one with the Father.

The dragon is the ego, don't worry or be superstitious; he's also called the devil, satan, Lucifer and a host of other names and he's the mark on the beast, it's time to wake up with Lord Jesus; the ego has been manifested from the psyche of the flesh & desires to devour the male-child who is the light of the Father called son; the male child is caught up to the throne of God & kept safe.

The children are called seeds that have been cast down into the earth & have been kept asleep and have come a long way from here until now and it's harvest time. Our sweet saviour Lord Jesus wants that none should perish. Know the fullness of our True Father through his son who was crucified for (y)our sake, became sin so that we would know truth and be set free.

Know who you are and where you came from and know our True Heavenly Father whom our Lord Jesus spoke about is not a god at all but much more than called Immeasurable One who is in perfect peace and rest continually.

Jesus is LORD God and we are his children; he alone has proven himself and said "In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." Do not be deceived.

As Christ's we are not superstitious and we are not from M.A.R.S. Martyrs Activist Robin-hoods or Supermen; we are Christ's alone and we walk the law of the land in peace and love and we do not harm any, not even ourselves as we continue in service here in this world.

It's time to awaken.

The solution is being poured into this cup and Jesus has said, when drinking from this cup, remember me.



M

 

[bbbbbbb]

No - I'm interested on what you said in THIS thread.

I'm not going to go and search the entire forum for a comment you made.
Just repeat it here.

Where do you get the idea that there are only 5 verses on Purgatory??

Fair enough. I am not going to reinvent my wheel for you, so you can rest satisfied that I am not going to rock your boat for you.

BTW, there are NO verses on Purgatory in the Bible.

 

[Kelly McArthur]

Fair enough. I am not going to reinvent my wheel for you, so you can rest satisfied that I am not going to rock your boat for you.

BTW, there are NO verses on Purgatory in the Bible.

Good point, though I might add, hell is here on earth and souls don't die like organic matter, they are born again into flesh and blood. Thus the second coming of Christ is here and he will awaken the souls who ask will receive and the 12 apostles who are asleep within their organic bodies kept alive by spirit and the 144,000 plus many more will awaken and be changed in a twinkling of an eye.


In order to be taken out of this world, that is to understand while you still live you need to wake up.

Death looses it sting, the grave it's victory, the gnashing of teeth is the ego in man that cannot understand, circling without answers when questions are asked of him he knows not how to answer. The ego is the god of this world who is offended by the one who crosses over to Lord Jesus as a little child. Our Lord Jesus with the power of the HS our teacher and comforter wipes all the tears away while still in the human body. The ego is the great accuser, not that he's in trouble, he was needed, you see, we have to choose of our own free will to know. As Bob Dylan wrote, you have to serve somebody.

Jesus is alive, he's here with you, ask him on purpose about this... not anyone else, just Lord Jesus, you have to bear this cross over on purpose, God will understand, this is the Father's plan for you to be born again. Ask him only to awaken you and better be saved and know the name of JESUS and have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, or else the ego attached to this flesh will get the better of you and trip you up even bait you with money wealth and power... but don't worry, Jesus makes it so you're incorruptible, even then, you are forgiven 7 x 70 and no man is allowed to judge you, because Our dear savour and LORD loves Yew, you're the child of the Father, you're his seed, not this organic flesh and blood,. The yew is in darkness and yew have to choose to follow/grow up in the true light, am I making any sense?

There is a solution in the cup to drink. Ask on purpose to have an answer to the question.

We are in the second coming of Christ, the elect will understand and awaken and after all will be changed. Imagine a kingdom put under a sleeping curse, and a lot has happened during this time and then the kingdom is awaken and everyones okay.

The mind is to be renewed first, the ego cannot cross over he can only steal the light and copy cat himself a Christ, a false Christ has no original thought and cannot answer straight. Only the soul transforms within forming a body that is called bride who accompanies the Christ; the soul is SHE who is the pure virginal light of our Father and the Christ is the Christo, HE is the true son, we are going to be like him, all are made sons and all souls are made brides, when the two come together as one we are neither male or female we are one with the Father.

It is finished. The Father has many children, we are all unique and one of the same, each as a name given to him written in the book of life.

This is not a pretend game, its time to awaken.

Understand plainly.

Stop praying to God and cross over to Lord Jesus asking him to help you, he's on the left side, there is reason for this, not superstitious and the Holy Spirit is on your right, not pretending, this is true, the mind will understand the light of our dear lord and all you do, gently with calmness and openness is to keep walking and its done through simple instructions so no drama, slow and steady while you continue in service here and it's a left and right glide to the father. No martyrs activist robin-hoods or supermen, you're to be Christ's alone and you walk the law of the land in peace and love and you do not harm any, not even yourself. Do you understand?

How fragile the truth is without the Lord Jesus who brings light into darkness, the ego is a bull in a china shop.

Christ is taking this world by stealth.

 

[concretecamper]

Who is the woman clothed with the sun?

The Blessed Mother, The Church, and Israel are all correct.

What is really interesting is that on Dec 12th the Virgin of Gaudalupe gave her tilma to Juan Diego. Yep Dec 12th vs. Rev 12:12 ........hmm