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Who is Melchizedek

The Liturgist

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The Bible doesn't mention a lot of things, but it doesn't mean it's not true.

Try reading a few of the lost books of scripture (Apocrypha).

I have. Most of them are horrible. Of those that aren’t, they are either in the section of the KJV called “The Apocrypha” which most print runs omit, or the Catholic Bible, or a typical Orthodox Bible, or the Ethiopian Orthodox canon. Of the New Testament apocrypha, sadly 100% of it is either fragmentary, corrupted by heretics or outright false.

However regarding Melchizedek some believe he was in fact Jesus Christ, and everyone agrees he was a type of Christ, and we don’t need any bizarre stories to find that out.
 
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The Liturgist

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No such thing as "lost books of scripture".

The term "apocrypha" is applied in two different ways:

1. As a synonymn for the Deuterocanonical Books of the Old Testament, more-or-less those books and versions of books found in the Septuagint but not in the later Tanakh.

2. A general-purpose term to refer to a number of non-canonical works.

In neither case are they "lost" nor "books of scripture". The formation and development of the biblical Canon is well documented and attested throughout history. What's in the Canon is in the Canon on purpose.

-CryptoLutheran

Well respectfully, in Eastern Orthodoxy some books absent from the Masoretic text are extremely important, moreso than some books in the Masoretic text. For example, Wisdom and Sirach are arguably more important than some of the Minor Prophets.
 
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The Liturgist

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It speaks volumes that on the one hand you think you are being "biblical" and insist upon that in the strict and idiosyncratic way you do--and are on record for saying anyone who doesn't share that view isn't even a Christian; and on the other hand you think the Bible is so wishy-washy that you are free to add or remove whatever you want and call whatever is to your own personal preference "Scripture".

Because what that means is that all that matters to you is what you personally feel is true, and you don't have any external and objective standard you are appealing to; it is all your own subjective feelings and preferences.

You might as well just be honest and say that the standard of authority for you is yourself. Because that's what it actually comes down to. You don't care what the Bible says, you'll use the Bible only insofar as you can use the Bible for your own personal preference; because no doubt as soon as the Bible says something you don't like you'll have no trouble throwing it in the trash bin and choosing something else.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed, even if we disagree on what is canon, we should I think base our position on a Patristic or other ecclesiadtical authority.

By the way, someone on CF.com who was a traditional Lutheran I recall reading saying the Lutherans have an open canon, in contrast to the Anglicans or Roman Catholics or Presbyterians.
 
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The Liturgist

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Interesting tho, wouldn't you agree ?

For the laity, and for first year seminary or Bible college students working on their BSc in Theology, sure. But once you really get familiar with the material, what matters is the typological importance of the passage as a prophecy of Jesus Christ as the Archhieratic King of Kings and the celebration of the bloodless and rational offering of bread and wine to become His very Body and Blood in the all sufficient sacrifice of the Eucharist with the hieratic and prophetic royalty that is the Christian Ekklesia, an event that the sacrifice of Abraham to the priest-king Melchizedek of Salem typologically prophesied.

Thus, while we don’t know and cannot know for sure whether or not Melchizedek was a Christophany, what we do know with certainty, because the Epistle to Hebrews explicitly states it (which is interesting, in that this arguably represents the prototype for what would become the most successful approach to Scriptural interpretation: the Patristic synthesis of Alexandrian-style typological-prophetic hermeneutics with Antiochene literal-historical events, where the events in the Old Testament are understood as literally true but also typologically prophetic, and thus build towards the Incarnation and God’s Economy of Salvation historically while also constituting by their nature a prophecy of the Incarnation and of the Gospel and the life of the Church.
 
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Apple Sky

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Strong in Him

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So why does the Bible give reference to the book of Jasher;

King James Bible
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? Joshua 10:13
The book of Jasher - whatever that was - contained another reference to this miracle. In other words "go and read this if you don't believe me". Just as Paul said that Jesus appeared to 500 people - most of whom are still alive.
But just because this book is mentioned in the Bible it doesn't mean that we should rush to read it and take it as an authoritative and inspired source.

As I said - 4 months ago - being mentioned in the Bible means nothing.
Jezebel, Judas and Baal are mentioned in the Bible - so?
 
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HIM

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So why does the Bible give reference to the book of Jasher;

King James Bible
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? Joshua 10:13
It is a lost book. Which apparently was inspired, as it is being given credence here in Joshua.
 
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Apple Sky

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The book of Jasher - whatever that was - contained another reference to this miracle. In other words "go and read this if you don't believe me". Just as Paul said that Jesus appeared to 500 people - most of whom are still alive.
But just because this book is mentioned in the Bible it doesn't mean that we should rush to read it and take it as an authoritative and inspired source.

As I said - 4 months ago - being mentioned in the Bible means nothing.
Jezebel, Judas and Baal are mentioned in the Bible - so?

But why would the Bible give credence to it if it weren't important ?
 
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Strong in Him

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But why would the Bible give credence to it if it weren't important ?
The Bible doesn't give credence to it; it's not saying anyone who is reading this needs to read the book of Jashur". It's not saying, "Jashur was inspired by God so go and read it now."
In 1 Kings we are told that other events of Solomon's reign were written in the annals of Solomon, 1 Kings 11:41, or that other events of Rehoboam's reign were written in the annals of the kings of Judah. That doesn't mean that we have to read them or take special note of them.
All of them are saying, "if you want further information, here's where you can find it". But these other books are not, themselves, part of the Biblical canon.
If you look it up you'll see it says that Jashur is a lost book - so we don't have it now.
 
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Apple Sky

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All of them are saying, "if you want further information, here's where you can find it".

So there's no harm in looking for further information on a particular subject ? :confused:
 
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Strong in Him

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So there's no harm in looking for further information on a particular subject ? :confused:
No, of course not. Those other sources aren't the inspired word of God, teaching his will, his plan, his ways etc; we can't say "this is Christian doctrine/God's command; it's taught in a book that we don't have". But other sources can still be useful, and accurate.
Christians sometimes refer to Josephus - the Jewish historian - especially if talking to unbelievers who don't believe the Bible. He did not write, or even contribute to, Scripture, but sometimes he confirms it - especially the OT.
 
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ralliann

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Noah had a bother called 'Nir' ?

The bible says only 8 people survived the flood.
(Nir) nor Noah's ( Father) was on the ark.

This story is easy proven false.

Not supporting the story, nor denying it. However......a curious thing is said concerning Noah's father, and the name he gave concerning comfort from the curse of the ground in Adam's sin.
Gen 28 ¶ And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. {Noah: Gr. Noe: that is Rest, or, Comfort }

He will not forsake forever........Mercy will come.
The waters of Noah

Is. 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
 
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ralliann

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Not supporting the story, nor denying it. However......a curious thing is said concerning Noah's father, and the name he gave concerning comfort from the curse of the ground in Adam's sin.
Gen 28 ¶ And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. {Noah: Gr. Noe: that is Rest, or, Comfort }

He will not forsake forever........Mercy will come.
The waters of Noah

Is. 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
Then lets examine these new testament verses...The waters of Noah...
1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are }
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
 
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Apple Sky

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Not supporting the story, nor denying it. However......a curious thing is said concerning Noah's father, and the name he gave concerning comfort from the curse of the ground in Adam's sin.
Lamech is the first in the bible to have had two wives. Lamech has three sons: Jabal, Jubal and Tubal-Cain.

So which son did he rename Noah ?
 
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ViaCrucis

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So why does the Bible give reference to the book of Jasher;

King James Bible
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? Joshua 10:13

There are several books referenced in the Bible which no longer exist. Jasher is an example of an ancient work which has since been lost. There is also a reference to a now lost work of Iddo the Seer. Like Jasher, this work is no longer extent.

Such texts did exist at one time, and the biblical authors point to them as reference material which was known in their time. However these works, clearly, were not preserved. The ancient communities of faith, first Jewish and later Christian, were concerned with preserving certain texts; not merely for the sake of posterity but rather recognized certain texts as authoritative. This process is known as canonization, from the Greek word kanon, originally referring to a reed used for measurement, the concept of a kanon developed into the idea of a standard, or rule. The Biblical Canon therefore meaning those texts which were to be regarded as standard, and also were authoritative. While this process of canonization was not entirely uniform nor monolithic, we see an emerging consensus about which books are sacred. Where there were debates or disagreements about certain books, it is always a pretty small list of books which are debated. Nobody, for example, would have thought to include Homer's Iliad into the Canon of Sacred Scripture. The overwhelming majority of books that have ever been written were never even conceived as being important enough for inclusion in a list of sacred and authoritative texts. And that includes, for example, the now lost book of Jasher. There is no evidence that, at any time, the Jewish community ever regarded this work as sacred; and its presentation in places like here in Joshua is merely informative and historical.

Enoch is an interesting case for a number of reasons. For one, the text we now call "1 Enoch" isn't a single text; it is an amalgamation of different texts written between ~200 BC and ~100 AD; these were all, originally different books as part of a broad Enochic tradition that existed in 2nd Temple period Judaism. In this period a lot of works were written which focused on usually minor biblical characters, with expansive stories, legends, and often fantastical elements. There are parallels between this and in modern times what we would generally call "fan-fiction". At some point, probably between the 3rd and 5th centuries some of these Enochic texts were brought together and compiled into a single work, which we now call 1 Enoch. And yes, we call it 1 Enoch because there are more Enochic works out there, so there is a 2 Enoch, and a 3 Enoch, and (if memory serves me) even a 4 Enoch. Some of these get truly bizarre; in either 3 or 4 Enoch, written by an unknown Jewish author sometime in the 5th or 6th century the figure of Enoch when he is taken up into heaven is transformed into the powerful angelic being known as Metatron, and bears an almost divine status. In fact later Jewish writers explicitly condemned this work and similar Enochic legends as unacceptable, because it amounted to claiming that there was God and also a kind of Vice-God, a second God, in heaven.

Another reason why 1 Enoch is interesting is because while early Christians were very aware of Enochic texts (one is quoted explicitly in the Epistle of St. Jude in the New Tetament), and some early Christians held them in high esteem (Tertullian of Carthage, around the year 200 AD, seems to regard it as Scripture, but Tertullian is himself an interesting figure because he converted away from orthodox Christianity to the Montanist cult at some point in his life); but the only historic churches which ever ended up taking the Enochic texts seriously enough to include them in a Canon was the Church of Ethiopia, which regards the distinctively Ethiopic version of the late amalgamated Enoch text (e.g. 1 Enoch) in its Canon. Outside of the Ethiopian (and now also Eritrean) Church, 1 Enoch has never received this kind of recognition; but has largely been relegated to interesting historical fiction.

A biblical author quoting, or referring, to another person or text does not in and of itself signify anything beyond a recognition that such a text exists. So, in the Acts of the Apostles, when St. Paul quotes Greek poets and philosophers, this does not mean that these poets and philosophers, nor their works, are to be regarded as Scripture, or sacred. Indeed, the work which Paul quotes that says "We are His offspring" was originally about Zeus, but Paul borrows it, not to speak of Zeus, but instead to apply it to the God of Israel; even as he takes advantage of the altar to the "Unknown God" at the Areopagus in Athens to speak about Israel's God, in order to converse with the Athenian elite and invite them to consider the message of Christ and the Christian Gospel.

Jasher no longer exists, but even if it did, it wouldn't be anything more than a work of purely historical significance. But, and I can't stress this enough: Jasher no longer exists. There are works out there which people claim are the long lost book of Jasher, but these have nothing to do with the work mentioned in the Old Testament. There is, for example, a work of medieval Jewish midrash known as the Sefer ha-Yashar (Book of Jasher), but it's merely medieval Jewish midrash. Worse, however, is that there is an 18th century forgery that still sometimes gets brought up that people claim to be the long lost book of Jasher--but it's not, it is a forgery from only several centuries ago, and even when it first showed up nobody took it seriously, and in fact the person who created the forgery (a British man) was caught and was arrested for it by the British authorities. Because several hundred years ago, just like today, people want to make a quick buck through fraudulent means.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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It is a lost book. Which apparently was inspired, as it is being given credence here in Joshua.

There is no reason to believe it was ever inspired.

If it were inspired, then it would have survived, and it would be included in the Bible today.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ralliann

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Lamech is the first in the bible to have had two wives. Lamech has three sons: Jabal, Jubal and Tubal-Cain.

So which son did he rename Noah ?
I do not know. All I know is Shem and Japheth dwell together in the tent of shem, in his blessing.
 
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Dan Perez

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Who was Melchizedek and why was he so important?


Melchizedek | Story, Meaning, Priesthood, & Bible Verse ...


Melchizedek, in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), a figure of importance in biblical tradition because he was both king and priest, was connected with Jerusalem, and was revered by Abraham, who paid a tithe to him.

A Strange Story concerning Melchizedek -

Noah had a bother called 'Nir', Nir had a wife called 'Sopanim' who became pregnant in her old age.
She is embarrassed by this pregnancy and hides herself until the child is due. When Nir discovers she is pregnant he rebukes her and intends to send her away because she has disgraced him, but instead she falls dead at his feet.


Noah discovers this and tells Nir that the Lord has “covered up our scandal.” They bury Sopanim in a black shroud in a secret grave.
However the child was not dead and came out of the dead mother as a fully developed child. This terrifies Nir and Noah, but since the child is “glorious in appearance” they realize the Lord is renewing the priesthood in their bloodline. They name the child 'Melchizedek'.


Melchizedek is only with Nir for forty days, then the Lord instructs Arc Angel Michael to go and take the boy up to heaven. The Lord calls him 'My Child Melchizedek'.

The child is to be placed in Paradise forever. Nir is so grieved by the loss of his son. He also dies leaving no more priests in the world, allowing the world to become even more evil. Noah is therefore instructed to build the ark.

This strange miraculous birth story for Melchizedek is part of an interest in the King of Salem (Salem - Later to become known as Jerusalem) first mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 14:18.
But in Hebrews 7:3 it reads , Without father , without mother , without genealogy , having no beginning of days , nor end of

of life , means it is CHRIST !!

dan p
 
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