Who was Mary? Choose the one nearest to your own view

  • Mary was immaculately conceived, a perpetual virgin, assumed in heaven and the Mother of God

  • Mary was a blessed woman and a great example to us all and the Mother of our Lord

  • Mary was just another woman

  • Other, Please explain


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Albion

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When people make this statement, I have to wonder if they ever ask anyone to pray for them?
When people make THAT statement, I have to wonder if they don't know the difference between a spirit and someone still living in the flesh?

Even if we were to rationalize away that difference and misread the verse that instructs us to pray for each other, praying to a spirit is done in the belief that they have "pull" with God and we want that extra leverage. :sigh:

Praying to God on behalf of a neighbor, by contrast, is simply to petition God in the same way as the person being prayed for does himself. Doing this just adds more voices in prayer and is done in keeping with the Biblical admonition to "pray unceasingly."
 
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prodromos

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When people make THAT statement, I have to wonder if they don't know the difference between a spirit and someone still living in the flesh?
Whether they are in the flesh or not, they are still persons and they are still in Christ's body, the Church.
Even if we were to rationalize away that difference and misread the verse that instructs us to pray for each other, praying to a spirit is done in the belief that they have "pull" with God and we want that extra leverage. :sigh:
As explained above, it is out of humility that we seek the prayers of righteous men and women over our own poor prayers. I know we've been over this many times before, and every time I bring up some of the many examples of the intercession of the Saints in the Orthodox Church you drop the discussion. This isn't just a theological view, this is the lived and frequently experienced reality in the Orthodox Church.
 
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narnia59

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According to the ProtEvangelium of James it was done by a lady called Salome after she had been told by Marys midwife that she remained a virgin after birth. Salome went to the stable to check. So there were two witnesses according to the book.

Chp 19:18 - 20:11
And the midwife departed from the cave and met Salome and said to her, "Salome, Salome, I have to describe this new miracle for you. A virgin has given birth, although her body does not allow it." (19) And Salome said, "As the Lord my God lives, unless I insert my finger and investigate her, I will not believe that a virgin has given birth." CHAPTER 20 (1) And the midwife went in and said, "Mary, position yourself, for not a small test concerning you is about to take place." (2) When Mary heard these things, she positioned herself. And Salome inserted her finger into her body. (3) And Salome cried out and said, "Woe for my lawlessness and the unbelief that made me test the living God. Look, my hand is falling away from me and being consumed in fire." (5) And Salome dropped to her knees before the Lord, saying, "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, (6) do not expose me to the children of Israel, but give me back to the poor. (7) For you know, Lord, that I have performed service and received my wage from you." (8) Suddenly, an angel of the Lord appeared, saying to her, "Salome, Salome, the Lord of all has heard your entreaty. (9) Stretch out your hand to the child and lift him up and he will be salvation and joy for you." (10) And Salome went to the child and lifted him up, saying, "I worship him because he has been born a king to Israel." (11) And at once Salome was healed and left the cave justified.


But this sounds the more fanciful part of the account and a little contrived like it was answering the question you raised rather than giving an account of what actually happened. I am not convinced of the necessity of perpetual virginity, can see no good biblical grounds to accept it and it neither adds nor detracts from my respect for Mary. I am inclined to accept the assumption but on a provisional basis, it is biblically possible and there is a strong early tradition for it. But again with Immaculate conception really do not see the necessity of it and can find no strong case for it. Even in the Gospel of James which is a pro Mary as you can get the doctrine is not obvious in the text.
My only purpose here is to provide the Scriptural basis that these teachings are not contrary to Scripture as some profess, and there is indeed evidence within Scripture that they are true.

You have to remember that Catholics are not Sola-Scriptura. If one tends to rely on Scripture alone and their interpretation, I think the most that can reasonably be concluded is as you seem to have here -- Scripture does not contradict these teachings but one may or may not conclude they are true based on Scripture alone. But in reality, that conclusion has no bearing on whether or not they are actually true or important. It is the teaching authority of the Church that is soundly evident in Sacred Scripture that provides the final determnination for me that they are actually true and therefore important to accept with faith.
 
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narnia59

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When people make THAT statement, I have to wonder if they don't know the difference between a spirit and someone still living in the flesh?

Even if we were to rationalize away that difference and misread the verse that instructs us to pray for each other, praying to a spirit is done in the belief that they have "pull" with God and we want that extra leverage. :sigh:

Praying to God on behalf of a neighbor, by contrast, is simply to petition God in the same way as the person being prayed for does himself. Doing this just adds more voices in prayer and is done in keeping with the Biblical admonition to "pray unceasingly."
Even evangelical faiths have the concept of a "prayer warrior." From this site:

Effective prayer is indeed work. We have to learn to walk with God, so we meditate daily on Him and His ways in order to become more and more humble, which is essential for effective prayer (2 Chronicles 7:13-15). We also study Scripture thoughtfully every day to learn what is pleasing to God and therefore what constitutes acceptable prayer. We learn to eliminate hindrances to prayer (Mark 11:25; 1 Peter 3:7; 1 John 3:21-22) and not to grieve the Spirit of God (Ephesians 4:30-32). We learn that we are in a spiritual battle with Satan, so we must pray for our own spiritual well-being to maintain our strength and focus in praying for others (Ephesians 6:12-18).

Prayer warriors have a heart for God, a heart for prayer, a heart for people, and a heart for Christ's church. Therefore, we pray continually and trust that God answers each prayer according to His perfect will and in His perfect timing.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-warrior.html#ixzz2umIOOyM3

If some people because of their humility, knowing what is pleasing to God, have eliminated hindrances to prayer, do not grieve the Spirit of God, need to maintain strength and focus in praying for others, have a heart for God, prayer, people and Christ's church, pray continually and trust in God -- if these people are more effective at prayer than others, who would you suggest would be better at that than someone who is already perfected in charity and living with God in heaven?

Regarding knowing the difference between a "spirit" and someone "in the flesh" -- there is no division in the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:25). And let us never forget that Jesus Christ has abolished death (2 Timothy 1:10).
 
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Albion

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Whether they are in the flesh or not, they are still persons and they are still in Christ's body, the Church.
But when it comes to us praying to someone, that similarity doesn't govern the situation.

I know we've been over this many times before, and every time I bring up some of the many examples of the intercession of the Saints in the Orthodox Church you drop the discussion.
Well, what more is there to say? You insist that the saints are admirable THEREFORE we should pray to them, which is a non-sequitur for sure.

And then to keep the record straight, I point out that there is no Biblical justification for the practice as well as other logical problems, such as the fact that we do not even know if they can hear us, let alone grant our petitions.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The Protoevangelium is based on Orthodox Tradition, not the other way around.

It’s claimed to be written by James himself in the opening statements. I highly doubt that would’ve been possible.
 
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narnia59

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But when it comes to us praying to someone, that similarity doesn't govern the situation.


Well, what more is there to say? You insist that the saints are admirable THEREFORE we should pray to them, which is a non-sequitur for sure.

And then to keep the record straight, I point out that there is no Biblical justification for the practice as well as other logical problems, such as the fact that we do not even know if they can hear us, let alone grant our petitions.
At a minimum there is a tacit approval of the practice in Scripture.

Judaism prior to the time of Christ had a long-standing practice of praying at Rachel's tomb which you can research. Their tradition is that the first to pray at her tomb was her son Joseph when he had been sold into slavery by his brothers.

There is Biblical justification for the undertanding that Rachel was aware of what was happening to her children and interceded for them after her death found in
Jeremiah 31:15-17 when the Babylonian exile occurred. "15 Thus says the Lord: “A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not.” 16 Thus says the Lord: “Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the Lord, and your children shall come back to their own country."

The idea of praying at Rachel's tomb had been a long standing tradition well before the time of Christ, and not once in the New Testament do we see Christ or the apostles denounce the practice.

And we see a tacit approval and affirmation. For when the innocents are slaughtered, Matthew quotes Jeremiah that "A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled,
because they were no more.”
(Matthew 2:18)

To sum it up, seeking the intercession of Rachel (a dead person) had been a long standing practice in Judaism, is supported in Scripture, was never condemned by Christ and the apostles, and even affirmed by Matthew when he recognized that Rachel was once again weeping for her children when the innocents were slaughtered, just as she had during the Babylonian exile when they were forced from their homeland.
 
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Albion

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...if these people are more effective at prayer than others, who would you suggest would be better at that than someone who is already perfected in charity and living with God in heaven?
Again, with the rationalizing. :doh:

It would be possible to argue that a turtle is a maple tree is one is given enough latitude to argue that something must be something else so long as there is any connection or similarity whatsoever.

We do not do that with other doctrines, but when it comes to this one, it's in full view.

Reminds me of that question: "Why do they paint Fire Engines red?"

Here's the answer:

Fire engines have eight wheels and four firemen; eight and four is twelve; there are twelve inches on a ruler; Queen Elizabeth I was a ruler; her ships sailed the seas; the seas have fish; fish have fins; the Finns fought the Russians; and the Russians were Reds.

Easy. Convincing (?) ;)
 
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Albion

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At a minimum there is a tacit approval of the practice in Scripture.

Judaism prior to the time of Christ had a long-standing practice of praying at Rachel's tomb which you can research. Their tradition is that the first to pray at her tomb was her son Joseph when he had been sold into slavery by his brothers.
But we Christians do not simply continue every religious practice of some Jews from Old Testament times.

Indeed the two religions are different in many ways. And we also know that the New Testament explicitly advises us that we are not to be governed by preexisting Jewish customs.
 
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narnia59

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Again, with the rationalizing. :doh:

It would be possible to argue that a turtle is a maple tree is one is given enough latitude to argue that something must be something else so long as there is any connection or similarity whatsoever.

We do not do that with other doctrines, but when it comes to this one, it's in full view.

Reminds me of that question: "Why do they paint Fire Engines red?"

Here's the answer:

Fire engines have eight wheels and four firemen; eight and four is twelve; there are twelve inches on a ruler; Queen Elizabeth I was a ruler; her ships sailed the seas; the seas have fish; fish have fins; the Finns fought the Russians; and the Russians were Reds.

Easy. Convincing (?) ;)
Take it up with gotquestions.org, a well known Evangelical site if you disagree with the concept that some are prayer warriors and more effective at praying than others. They have contact info on their site.
 
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narnia59

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But we Christians do not simply continue every religious practice of some Jews from Old Testament times.

Indeed the two religions are different in many ways. And we also know that the New Testament explicitly advises us that we are not to be governed by preexisting Jewish customs.
Take it up with Matthew who saw fit to include it in his New Testament Gospel instead of pointing out that Christians shouldn't do that.

Besides, you said there was no Biblical evidence that they could even hear us. That's not true.
 
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Albion

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Take it up with gotquestions.org, a well known Evangelical site if you disagree with the concept that some are prayer warriors and more effective at praying than others. They have contact info on their site.
No one denied that prayer warriors are effective at praying.

Your point, now twice stated, doesn't deal with the issue of whether praying to humans who haver passed into the afterlife is proper or not.
 
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Albion

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Take it up with Matthew who saw fit to include it in his New Testament Gospel instead of pointing out that Christians shouldn't do that.

Besides, you said there was no Biblical evidence that they could even hear us. That's not true.
It's easy to make both of those claims, but that's where it ends unless you are willing to identify are what you are referring to.
 
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narnia59

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It's easy to make both of those claims, but that's where it ends unless you are willing to identify are what you are referring to.
Done and done, take it or leave it, up to you. Scripture is clear that Rachel was both aware of what was happening to her children and interceded on their behalf, and Matthew recognized and validated that.
 
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prodromos

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But when it comes to us praying to someone, that similarity doesn't govern the situation.
Being in Christ certainly does.
Well, what more is there to say? You insist that the saints are admirable THEREFORE we should pray to them, which is a non-sequitur for sure.
Sure, if that was my argument, which it never has been.
And then to keep the record straight, I point out that there is no Biblical justification for the practice as well as other logical problems, such as the fact that we do not even know if they can hear us, let alone grant our petitions.
That is like a blind man arguing that colours don't exist to people with healthy eyes.
 
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Albion

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Sure, if that was my argument, which it never has been.
You've never endorsed the idea of praying to saints presumed to be in heaven on the basis that they are righteous and part of the body of Christ?????
 
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prodromos

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You've never endorsed the idea of praying to saints presumed to be in heaven on the basis that they are righteous and part of the body of Christ?????
Not in the posts your comment was in response to, no.
 
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