Who IS GoG?

[John S]

Trumpeter - Take it from someone who occassionally gets frustrated and says stupid things, you should not ask "Did you fall out of your rocker"? It's insulting.

 

[trumpeter]

Trumpeter - Take it from someone who occassionally gets frustrated and says stupid things, you should not ask "Did you fall out of your rocker"? It's insulting.

Trying to inject a little humor. Biblewriter will not be offended, if he is I'm sure he's man enough to take care of himself.

 

[John S]

1. That was NOT funny.
2. I'm glad that you KNOW what Biblewriter is thinking.
3. If he is insulted, then you believe that he is man enough to take care of himself. In other words, it's O.K. to insult people because "men" will take care of themselves.

If I'm the only one who was insulted, then so be it.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[granpa]

tarshish = tsor zeus = rock of god = gibralter

it can also mean any gibralter like location

I would suggest you consider Bab-el-Mandeb

Bab-el-Mandeb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_junction

 

[trumpeter]

vinsight4u
I have always seen Tarshish as being Spain. I'll look into it. Do you think that Gog comes out of the north parts but attacks via Saudi Arabia? It bugs me how he says that he will go up to the land of unwalled villages. I wonder how many apes Spain has had, as that part linked to the ships of Tarshish has puzzled me in 2 Chronicles 9:21. If Tarshish was so close to Israel, then why did Tyre's and Solomon's ships seem to make trips every so many years?

What I understand from the four volumes of the ISBE, Tarshish was a descendant of Javan (Gen 10:4). They have been identified with peoples and places in the eastern Mediterreanean region near Greece, including a portion of North Africa, Crete, Cyprus, and Rhodes.

Tarshish was also connected to Sheba, Seba, Dedan, south Arabia and east Africa on the Red Sea. Ship building was concentrated on the Gulf of Aqabah at the northern end of the Red Sea. Solomon’s fleet of ships was stationed at Ezion-geber located on the north shore of the Gulf of Aqabah and would not of had access to the Mediterranean Sea. The trading ships stationed in the Gulf returned once every three years from somewhere carrying gold, silver and ivory, and apes and baboons, 1 Kings 10:22. According to tradition these exotic items were obtained from India. This Indian theory is attested also in Josephus (Ant. Viii.6.4 [163f.] and Jerome (in translating Job 28:16).

There’s no logic for Gog to take the long way around to attack Israel via Saudi Arabia. Cush (northern Sudan) will attack Israel from the south.

 

[trumpeter]

Duplicate post.

 

[Biblewriter]

Biblewriter

I never have heard of a Judean king of a revived Judea in the end time. Did you fall out of your rocker?

If I understand correctly, your mythical king of Judah is also the Antichrist who revives the kingdom of Judah. You said: “The Antichrist is not someone that attacks Israel, he is its leader.”

Well, I see you can read after all!

But what have you been reading all these many years you have been studying prophecy. Instead of falling off my rocker, I was agreeing with many commentators that came before me. This was taught by Irenaeus and all the classical dispensational writers. I believe Dwight Pentacost was the earliest, or at least almost the earliest dispensational writer who did not teach this.

But I do not appeal to other writers, no matter who they may be, as authorities. I appeal to the scriptures themselves. I gave you the main ones. Go back and study them, now that you have gotten over the shock of understanding what I was saying.

You have added another person known as the “beast” who rules over the 10 horns as the revived Roman Empire.

I have "added?" Do you have a Bible? Have you ever read the last book in it? It is called "the Revelation," and mentions this individual by this designation a total of 28 times! doh:gotcha back)

We agree the future Assyrian is the king of the north who rules over the same territory of the Seleucid Empire that evolved from one of the four divisions of the Grecian Empire after Alexander the Great died.I believe the Antichrist is also the Assyrian and you believe he is the king of Judah.



The definition of “revive” is: to return to consciousness or in case of an empire; bring back to power after its destruction by another empire. Rome was never conquered completely by another kingdom.

In the first place, I do not agree with your definition of "revived," but that is an aside. Rome survived, but the Roman empire was indeed completely destroyed. I suggesst you read "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon.

When John wrote Revelation Rome was in power and continued that way for many years until it deteriorated within to become a conglomerate of nations, some strong like iron and others weak like clay (Dan 2:41-43).

Daniel 2:43 explains the meaning of the Iron mixed with clay. It was that they would mingle, "but they shall not cleave one to another." This is exactly the propbel in the European union of today. Americans think of themselves first as Americans, and than as citizens of such-and-such a state. But Europeans think of themselves first as citizens of such-and-suah a country, and then as Europeans. It will still be so in their final union which will consist of a union of ten nations.

The ten toes of Daniel’s statue made of iron and baked clay will become the 10 horns in the end time to become the “revised” Roman Empire. Rome was alive at the time John wrote Revelation and still is alive in a deteriorated condition today, nor is it united as a strong kingdom should be.

The empire that is revived in the end times will be Assyria, the king of the north. Assyria once was a powerful kingdom that had been destroyed by Babylon. It was one of the five kingdoms that had fallen before John’s day, was not a kingdom in John’s day and will be revived to become the eighth kingdom.

Three nations will be revived. Assyria, Rome, and Judah.

Back to the king of Judah that you say is the king of Dan 11:36-39. The identity of the King is not given in the passage but there’s no excuse to introduce a Judaic king when the context of the previous historical wars was between Gentile kings north and south of Israel. The back and forth historical conflicts of the northern and southern kings in verses 2-32 concludes with the Seleucid king Antiochus Epiphanes and resume in the end times with “the king” of verse 36. It’s not stated here if the king is the northern or southern king; we need to continue to verses 40-41 to find out.

You wholly fail to notice that God left out a designation He used everywhere else in this account. In all other mentions of a king, He always said "the king of ----." Bible language is highly precise. Every detail is significant. And every omission is also significant. God did not "forget" the designation here. He intentionally omitted it. I have given a logical explanation of this omission. Can you give a more logical one?

But the existence of this king is not dependent on this omission alone. We see it again in his scorn for "the God of his fathers." I pointed out the scriptural significance of this term. But that is not the only scripture I pointed out. I gave you other scriptures that refer to this individual.

But one of these scriptures involves no interpretation at all. God said "I will raise up a shepherd in the land." (Zechariah 11:16) This is the shepherd that does not care for the sheep.

So the scriptures explicitly speak of this end time ruler of Judah, which is not called Israel.

Verse 40-41
At the time of the end (Jacob’s trouble) the king of the South (Egypt) will engage him (the king; v. 36) in battle, and the king of the North (the king; v. 36) will storm out against him (southern king) with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He (northern king) will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. He (northern king) will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand


The events in verses 40-45 will transpire at the time of the end, that is, they will occur in the second half of the 70th “seven” of years. “Him” refers back to the king introduced in verse 36. In verses 40-45 every occurrence of “he”, “him” and “his’ refers to this coming king.


A Gentile king cannot be the foolish Jewish shepherd in Zec 11:15-17.

You are right. It is a Jewish shepherd.

Our Lord Jesus never contrasted himself to this foolish shepherd, if he had, it would have been recorded in the gospels, not in the OT where God the Father appointed the shepherds.

Jesus specifically referenced a shepherd that flees as opposed to himself, the good shepherd. Read the first part of Zechariah 11:17: "Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock!"

The Jews rejected Jesus as the Father’s representative but they accepted false teachers or prophets in their day. John 5:43 is not a prophecy of a mystical king of Judah.



Whether you believe in a 7 year tribulation or a 3.5 year tribulation of the second half, Gog’s invasion of Israel must occur before the tribulation.

Gog invades Israel during a time of peace as stated in following verses:

v. 8 …In future years you will invade a land…..that has recovered from war……and my people are living in safety.

v. 11 Gog will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people

v/ 14 When God’s people are living in safety Gog will come from the far north and overrun them.

During the length of the tribulation there will not be a time of peace for Israel, it can only exist before the tribulation begins. Israel must be living in “Peace and safety” before the destruction of the day of the Lord comes on them suddenly (1 Thess 5:30).

Gog is not destroyed by God on the mountains of Israel at the time Gog attacks her, God doesn’t react immediately to the invasion. Gog comes against Israel during the peace that precedes the day of the Lord and takes possession of Israel for the duration of the tribulation then is destroy by God at the end of it. The focus of Ezekiel’s prophecy is on the beginning and end of Gog’s conquest of Israel.

These verses describe Gog’s invasion: 38:1-16; 39:1-2

These verses describe Gog’s destruction: 38:18-23; 39:3-6

I gave you the scriptural reasons for rejecting this concept. Did you consider them, or just reject them?

 

[trumpeter]

Biblewriter
Well, I see you can read after all!

Barely

Three nations will be revived. Assyria, Rome, and Judah.

I’m shaking my head on this one. I know of the three horns subdued by the Antichrist but the revival of three kingdoms in the end times? This is too much.

But the existence of this king is not dependent on this omission alone. We see it again in his scorn for "the God of his fathers." Dan 11:37

You have quoted the KJV; the NIV has “the gods of his fathers.” The ancient Assyrians had many gods.

Just to let you know, instead of worshiping the ancient Assyrian gods, the Antichrist will honor a “god of fortresses; a god unknown to his fathers” (NIV). The “God of forces” (KJV) or god of fortresses is the god of this world, Satan. Notice the KJV uses a capital “G” for the god of this world.

The Antichrist will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of the “foreign god” or "strange god" Allah, who is the god of the Muslims and the 10 horns (39).

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Biblewriter]

Barely

I’m shaking my head on this one. I know of the three horns subdued by the Antichrist but the revival of three kingdoms in the end times? This is too much.

The revival of the Roman empire is so obvious in scripture that it never occurred to me to need a special thread, but I guess I need to make one. It is not a doctrine that originated with me. It was taught by all the classical dispensationalists, as was the end time king of Judah, whom I have discussed here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7585242-5/


If you think my ideas are so far out in left field, please explain the following endorsements my book, in which I developed these ideas fully, received from top ranked leaders in the field of dispensational eschatology. Both of them authorized me to put these endorsements on the cover of the book.

Dr. Ed Hindson, Assistant Chancellor of Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia and Dean of the prestigious Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy, says “‘Keys to Bible Prophecy’ is one of the most interesting and insightful studies available today. This fascinating book is must reading for anyone interested in what the Bible says about the future.”


Arno Froese, editor of the end times magazine “Midnight Call,” said of this book: “I find the material to be of exceptional value relating to instruction, correction, reproof, and simplicity. I can highly recommend your book to all Bible-believing Christians, particularly those who take careful notice of eschatology... I pray that this book will find wide distribution for the edification of the Church.”

This is not intended as an appeal to the authority of mere men. It is only to show you that some of the best known leaders in the field of dispensational eschatology did not see them as "far out," but as "one of the most... insightful studies available today," and as of "exceptional value."

You have quoted the KJV; the NIV has “the gods of his fathers.” The ancient Assyrians had many gods.

Just to let you know, instead of worshiping the ancient Assyrian gods, the Antichrist will honor a “god of fortresses; a god unknown to his fathers” (NIV). The “God of forces” (KJV) or god of fortresses is the god of this world, Satan. Notice the KJV uses a capital “G” for the god of this world.

The Antichrist will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of the “foreign god” or "strange god" Allah, who is the god of the Muslims and the 10 horns (39).

I already pointed out the scriptural meaning of the term "the God of his fathers. As to the NIV reading, which is followed by other translations:

Most modern translations render this clause “the gods of his fathers.” This is a possible translation because the Hebrew word for God (‘elohiym, word number 430 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) is plural. But the Hebrew scriptures use ‘elohiym for the one true God of Israel about two thousand four hundred times. (Including Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!&#8221 While it was used of the gods of the heathen only about two hundred times. Whether ‘elohiym should be translated God or gods can only be determined from the context. Nothing in Daniel 11:37 implies a plural sense for this word. But if “the gods of his fathers” were correct, this would be the only place the Holy Spirit used this formula in speaking of false gods. Translators did not begin to use the plural word gods in this verse until the notion that “the ·king” is “the prince” became popular. So we realize this idea is the basis of the plural translation. Thus we understand that using the plural translation to prove this idea is only reasoning in a circle.

 

[trumpeter]

I’m not impressed with you endorsements or your superior intelligence. Your inability to correct your misguided interpretations is typical of those in prominent positions, such as Biblical scholars of Christian institutions and well known prophecy teachers. I have contacted many of the “experts” who are recognized to have the intelligence, education and experience yet their understanding of God’s prophetic word is seriously flawed. I have contacted these so called experts over a span of almost 24 years; you are just another one of many that needs correction.

Tim LaHaye has promoted the prophetic word of God for a profit at the expense of sound doctrine. Tim and Jerry Falwell and Arno Froese share similar views on prophecy. A few of their false teachings is an end time Judean king as the Antichrist, a 7 year tribulation, an imminent rapture at sometime before the 7 years, the church is raptured before Antichrist is revealed, no one can know the day of the rapture, and the church is the bride of Christ.

A revived Roman Empire is not in Scripture.

 

[Biblewriter]

I’m not impressed with you endorsements or your superior intelligence. Your inability to correct your misguided interpretations is typical of those in prominent positions, such as Biblical scholars of Christian institutions and well known prophecy teachers. I have contacted many of the “experts” who are recognized to have the intelligence, education and experience yet their understanding of God’s prophetic word is seriously flawed. I have contacted these so called experts over a span of almost 24 years; you are just another one of many that needs correction.

Tim LaHaye has promoted the prophetic word of God for a profit at the expense of sound doctrine. Tim and Jerry Falwell and Arno Froese share similar views on prophecy. A few of their false teachings is an end time Judean king as the Antichrist, a 7 year tribulation, an imminent rapture at sometime before the 7 years, the church is raptured before Antichrist is revealed, no one can know the day of the rapture, and the church is the bride of Christ.

A revived Roman Empire is not in Scripture.

I do not profess superior intelligence. But I do profess a general knowledge of the word of God. I quoted well known "experts" solely to demonstrate that my ideas are neither novel nor "off the wall."

I am prepared to demonstrate a revival of the Roman Empire from scripture, as well as every one of these doctrines you call "false teachings." And I have already developed the proofs of most of them in this forum.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[trumpeter]

Greetings, trumpeter


We agree then that the Babylonian captivity swtiched out of Babylonian's king time to the Medes took the kingdom. How many years passed first? Less than the seventy years needed that is mentioned in Jer. 25:11.

605-539 = 66
This leaves time for the Babylonian to come back and finish the time left for the Babylonians to rule Jerusalem.

They have to put in 70 years before Jer. 25:11 can end, and v12 can begin.

Jer. 25:11
And this whole land shall be a desolation...
v 12
And it shall come to pass when seventy years...I will punish the king of Babylon...the land of the Chaldeans...desolations.

Babylon fell 539 BC ///we agree
to Darius the Mede. //Darius ruled several years,
then came the first year of Cyrus//and the 70 years of captivity ends, the decree happens to return and build Jerusalem, and the temple of God.
........time passes....and passes....
Iraq rises - in the land of Shinar/the Euphrates/the north country
and one day a Babylonian king will come from there and finish their time over the nations.

This is what Daniel 9 starts out about as Daniel began to supplicate over the Jeremiah he shall desolate Jerusalem prophecy. Daniel knew he had 70 years, and the Medes had come in, and so where was the rest of the days of Babylon?
Gabriel was sent to Daniel to give him understanding of Jeremiah's message. verse 27 ...he...desolate...till the consummation...

/One Babylonian king will come and finish the time that they have left to desolate Jerusalem.

Greetings vinsight4u
Normally I have difficulty understanding your line of reasoning because your thoughts jump around so much; you understand what you are saying but it makes it difficult for others to follow through to the end.

Your line of reasoning in post #77 I understand and embrace. As you said, the actual number of years of captivity in Babylon was less than the 70 years required by Jeremiah’s prophecy and the remaining years will be fulfilled in the future Babylon.

The study notes in the NIV Study Bible has 538 B.C. as the beginning of Judah’s return from exile after Darius the Mede took over Babylon in 605. Whether the beginning year is 539 or 538 the number of unfulfilled years of captivity is about 3.5 years, the same duration of Jacob’s trouble. Is it reasonable to conclude the unfinished years of Babylonian captivity will be fulfilled in Jacob’s trouble of 3.5 years? At that time Judah will be taken as prisoners to all the nations when Gog invades the Land (Lk 21:24). “They will be enslaved by many nations and great kings” (Jer 25:14).

Jeremiah tells us that God will punish the king of Babylon when the seventy years are completed. He will make it desolate for ever and all the things he has spoken against it in the book of Jeremiah will be fulfilled (25:12-13). The compete destruction and desolation of Babylon was not fulfilled in the ancient Babylon, it will be fulfilled by Babylon the Great of the last days.

Where I part with you is the location of Babylon the Great in the last days. You have Babylon arising in Iraq in the time of the end on the ancient site in the land of Shinar. I believe the beginning of modern Babylon arose over 200 years ago in the country America.

Thanks for posting your thoughts on the unfinished days of Israel’s captivity. One should never be too old to learn new tricks.

 

[vinsight4u]

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