Who goes to hell?

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

If y-x=y

Then x=0

You've defined x as being zero in your premise. I would say x does not equal zero.
The premise should be x=the commandments that all the other commandments hang on. y= all the other commandments.

The equation is x=y

dollarsbill · Feb 14, 2012

WillieH said:
hmmm... typical mistranslation of terminology which NO man understands or comprehends.

"FOREVER" is as without BEGINNING, as it is without END.

It seems to be quite popular here for those who deny the eternal fire to use their own personal translations. Alas, nearly every English translation we have clearly teaches eternal punishment in the "unquenchable", "everlasting", "eternal" fire. Did I mention "forever"?

Sadalmelik · Feb 14, 2012

dollarsbill said:
It seems to be quite popular here for those who deny the eternal fire to use their own personal translations. Alas, nearly every English translation we have clearly teaches eternal punishment in the "unquenchable", "everlasting", "eternal" fire. Did I mention "forever"?

so because they all mistranslate, that makes it proof? how so?
most translators and scholars worked off of previous translations, so all that basically proves is they copied each other....thats proof? when one has already been brainwashed, it is difficult for proper discernment of scripture, as those with an eternal hell view prove.

for if they let the Holyspirit take the reigns and guide them to the truth, they would not have this dogmatic view of hell, as it is disproven by reading scripture for what it says, not what the church says it says.

Ishraqiyun · Feb 14, 2012

Youngs Literal Translation :

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. (YLT) Matthew 25:46

Some of the translation have "eternal", other have "everlasting" (which isn't the same as eternal), and others have the more literal translation of "age during"

Notice an end to an aion is mentioned here:

Matthew 28:20: “…I am with you always, even to the end of the age [aion] ”

dollarsbill · Feb 14, 2012

jrog said:
so because they all mistranslate, that makes it proof? how so?

You should seriously consider the YOUR personal translation is wrong and the rest are correct.

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

dollarsbill said:
You should seriously consider the YOUR personal translation is wrong and the rest are correct.

dollarsbill said:
Yes, eternal death. But they will still be alive.

Which translation says this?

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

dollarsbill said:
It seems to be quite popular here for those who deny the eternal fire to use their own personal translations. Alas, nearly every English translation we have clearly teaches eternal punishment in the "unquenchable", "everlasting", "eternal" fire. Did I mention "forever"?

Don't forget "destruction". Destruction is redefined ALL the TIME!

But in your defense, Destruction has to be redefined as "NOT-destroyed" because if the word is left to mean "Destruction" too many people would believe that the lost are destroyed and not tortured for all eternity forever.
However Destruction and NOT-destroyed are pretty much complete opposites, so other than the necessary eisegesis, there is no reason to define destruction as not-destroyed-but-tortured-forever-instead-of-being-destroyed.

dollarsbill · Feb 14, 2012

Timothew said:
Which translation says this?

Many. I.E.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It says nothing about them being destroyed or ceasing to exist.

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Many. I.E.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It says nothing about them being destroyed or ceasing to exist.

Really? According to you the bible says nothing about them being destroyed or ceasing to exist?

How about 2nd Thess 1:9 "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction"?
How about in Matthew where Jesus says "The road is wide that leads to destruction"?
How about the time Jesus said "Unless you repent you will likewise perish"?
How about Jude who compared the fate of the lost to the destruction of Gemorrah?
How about John 3:16 which says those who believe in Jesus Christ will not PERISH but have eternal life?
How about Ezekiel who wrote that the soul who sins will die?

You need to read unclear passages of scripture in the light of the clear passages of scripture. Otherwise you are taking the verses out of context. Think about what genre of Book John's Apocalypse is. Apocalyptic.

dollarsbill · Feb 14, 2012

Timothew said:
Really? According to you the bible says nothing about them being destroyed or ceasing to exist?

How about 2nd Thess 1:9 "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction"?
How about in Matthew where Jesus says "The road is wide that leads to destruction"?
How about the time Jesus said "Unless you repent you will likewise perish"?
How about Jude who compared the fate of the lost to the destruction of Gemorrah?
How about John 3:16 which says those who believe in Jesus Christ will not PERISH but have eternal life?
How about Ezekiel who wrote that the soul who sins will die?

You need to read unclear passages of scripture in the light of the clear passages of scripture. Otherwise you are taking the verses out of context. Think about what genre of Book John's Apocalypse is. Apocalyptic.

Jesus expects us to read the entire NT to fully understand. I.E.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Can't be any clearer. They will still be alive.

Huram Abi · Feb 14, 2012

Timothew said:
If y-x=y

Then x=0

You've defined x as being zero in your premise. I would say x does not equal zero.
The premise should be x=the commandments that all the other commandments hang on. y= all the other commandments.

The equation is x=y

It's not my premise. It is the premise given by saying that a portion of the law is equal to the whole of the law.

And, yes, x is defined as 0. That is my point so I've given the proof to demonstrate it.

We can add a third variable here, to say that x= the two commandments z=the whole of the law, thereby, the remaining laws are represented by z-x=y

By setting x=z when stating that the whole law is summed up by the two laws we find y by substitution.

z-x=y, substituting z with x since z=x we get

x-x=y

0=y

Now, if x is a summary of y, then x=0. It follows that z=0 as well.

This problem dissappears when we recognize that the first two laws are compliments to the whole law rather than a summation of the whole law.

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Jesus expects us to read the entire NT to fully understand. I.E.

When you were reading the entire NT did you read these?
2nd Thess 1:9 "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction"?
"The road is wide that leads to destruction"?
"Unless you repent you will likewise perish"?
Jude compared the fate of the lost to the destruction of Gemorrah?
John 3:16 those who believe in Jesus Christ will not PERISH but have eternal life?
Ezekiel the soul who sins will die?

Can't be any clearer. They will still be alive.

Dead people are dead unless Jesus resurrects them to life. Dead people are not alive. If they were alive, they wouldn't be dead people. Living people are alive. If they were dead, they wouldn't be living people. This can't be any clearer. I don't know how else to explain this to you. Dead people are not alive.

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

Maybe I'll try this. If X represents living people and Y represents dead people:

X does not equal Y.

dollarsbill · Feb 14, 2012

Timothew said:
When you were reading the entire NT did you read these?
2nd Thess 1:9 "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction"?
"The road is wide that leads to destruction"?
"Unless you repent you will likewise perish"?
Jude compared the fate of the lost to the destruction of Gemorrah?
John 3:16 those who believe in Jesus Christ will not PERISH but have eternal life?
Ezekiel the soul who sins will die?

Dead people are dead unless Jesus resurrects them to life. Dead people are not alive. If they were alive, they wouldn't be dead people. Living people are alive. If they were dead, they wouldn't be living people. This can't be any clearer. I don't know how else to explain this to you. Dead people are not alive.

Yes I read them. And they fit the verses I cited. Everyone will receive a 'spiritual body'. Everyone. That's what you have failed to understand. The spiritual body is eternal.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (NASB)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Daniel 12:2 (NASB)
2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Yes I read them. And they fit the verses I cited. Everyone will receive a 'spiritual body'. Everyone. That's what you have failed to understand. The spiritual body is eternal.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (NASB)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Daniel 12:2 (NASB)
2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

In order for me to accept what you say, I would have to believe that dead people are actually not dead, they are alive. This is simply not true.
Dead people are dead. I'm completely convinced that dead people are actually dead, not alive. I can't believe I'm having this much trouble convincing you of this obvious fact. Poke a needle into a dead person's hand. Do they say "Ouch"? No? The reason that dead people don't say ouch when you poke them with a needle is because they are dead. Now repeat the experiment with a living person. Did they react? Yes? The reason a living person reacts to being stuck with a needle is because, wait for it, they are not dead. If they were dead, they wouldn't be alive.

dollarsbill · Feb 14, 2012

Timothew said:
In order for me to accept what you say, I would have to believe that dead people are actually not dead, they are alive. This is simply not true.
Dead people are dead. I'm completely convinced that dead people are actually dead, not alive. I can't believe I'm having this much trouble convincing you of this obvious fact.

Need I cite Luke 16 and Rev. again? Why does the NT use the terms "unquenchable, everlasting, eternal" for punishment in the fire?

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Need I cite Luke 16 and Rev. again? Why does the NT use the terms "unquenchable, everlasting, eternal" for punishment in the fire?

Because the fire is unquenchable, the fire is everlasting, the fire is eternal. The word that the NT uses for being burned up in the eternal fire is katakausei and it means to be completely burned down. There is nothing left.
Check Matthew 3:12.
His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up (katakausei) the chaff with unquenchable fire. (NASB)

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

Hey Dollarsbill, you are not asking questions, you are trying to convince me of something that is untrue.

I could answer every objection you have, but you will never be persuaded, so I'm finished wasting my time with you.

The fact is that there is only eternal life in Christ Jesus and nowhere else. That means there is no eternal life being tortured in hell. Those who receive eternal life in the final resurrection will be alive forever after. Those who do not receive eternal life in the final resurrection will be dead forever after. Since they are dead, they are not alive.

dollarsbill · Feb 14, 2012

Timothew said:
Because the fire is unquenchable, the fire is everlasting, the fire is eternal.

So obviously if the wicked no longer existed there would be no need for the eternal, everlasting and unquenchable fire.

Timothew · Feb 14, 2012

dollarsbill said:
So obviously if the wicked no longer existed there would be no need for the eternal, everlasting and unquenchable fire.

I've already explained that the bible says they are consumed by the fire.

Who goes to hell?

According to your beliefs, who ends up in hell?

Those who do not become Christian during their mortal life

Those who do not submit to Christ/ accept Christ's love in the afterlife

Nobody. I don't believe in Hell.

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