Who gets saved? Just Christians?

[Dave RP]

Thanks for your reply! If I might ask... can you tell me how, as an atheist, you have accepted (not rejected) Jesus - see Matthew 7:21-23. It may be perhaps you just think more agnostically towards the idea of the God of the Christian Bible.

Would there really be one world religion if the whole world knew the truth? Do all people want to live under the authority of a god or would some not say life would be more enjoyable just doing the things they enjoy and not having to worry about some kind of eternal consequence for their actions in this life?

Everyone has their own qualifiers of what they consider sufficient evidence - just a 'shred' as you have put it. If you are willing to entertain, would you tell me what are your qualifiers? Admittedly, this can difficult to pin down for anyone as we all make objective/subjective judgments that divide what we perceive as true/false. Right now, you have reason(s) why you do not believe any god exists, or at least not the God of the Bible, what are those reason(s)?

You misunderstood me, I have neither accepted nor rejected Jesus, I do not believe that Jesus was divine, the "son of God" and I do not believe that there is a creator god who will "judge" humanity at some future time. Therefore, regarding Jesus I cannot say he was either rejected or accepted, he is unknown to me. As I said, if I am wrong I will apologise and certainly accept him then.

Regarding your second paragraph, if the god of the bible were to make himself clearly visible, there would be two options - follow the clearly available religion or have no religion, you would have an informed choice. My point was was that there are hundreds, if not thousands of religions in the world, all believing they have the right religion, and that is indication that the god believed in by Christians has not made himself apparent.

In answer to your third paragraph, there are two sections of this. Firstly god who created the universe. I just cannot get my head around a "thing" which can just "think" the entire universe into existence, with all its vastness and complexity. Where did this thing labelled god come from, who or what made god? I accept there are mysteries in the universe and science cannot explain everything, maybe it never will, but it seems to have got quite close to the start of the universe with the big bang theory. What happened to cause the big bang is still unexplained, but I just don't feel it is correct to say, as some do, well we can't explain that therefore it must have been god - that's not an answer because it doesn't explain where god came from, how it operates and where it is now. I do accept there may be some mysterious force in the universe so far beyond our comprehension that we label it "god" but the possibility of a god like creator seems to me to be too far fetched.

Then there is the god of the bible. Lets say I'm wrong and there is a go who started the universe off, there are billions of stars in our galaxy, and billions of galaxies, way to numerous to attempt to count. The universe has existed for 13 billion years and the earth for 6 billion, yet we are expected to believe that this creator god is interested in the personal behaviour of a few puny humans on a tiny speck stuck in one corner of the vast universe, I just cannot believe that. The bible itself is fundamentally flawed, the fall of Adam and Eve, the talking serpent, the flood, Jonah and the fish, Lots wife to name just a few all to me seem to be just ludicrous, hence the bible cannot be the divine word of god. Then there is salvation. Let's say I'm wrong in all respects and there will be a judgement. The Christian faith says that only those who accept Jesus will go to heaven, I just cannot accept that an all powerful and loving god will exclude (for example) Einstein, Gandhi, David Attenborough and ALL atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Shinto's, Buddhists, Native Americans..... (you get the picture) from his paradise.

I respect anyone for their belief, faith is a personal thing, but what I do get frustrated with is the dogma of religion and the certainty of some that their religion is correct and others are wrong. That human attitude has caused, and still does cause, untold misery around the world.

 

[NobleMouse]

You misunderstood me, I have neither accepted nor rejected Jesus, I do not believe that Jesus was divine, the "son of God" and I do not believe that there is a creator god who will "judge" humanity at some future time. Therefore, regarding Jesus I cannot say he was either rejected or accepted, he is unknown to me. As I said, if I am wrong I will apologise and certainly accept him then.

Thank you for the well-thought responses and the time you have taken to chat with me on the subject - it is sincerely appreciated! From your responses, I would take it that your views toward religion and the idea of a god are based on scientific knowledge, logic, and reason and so I will try to stay within these areas. As you know, there is a degree of faith required in ascribing to any belief so I do put that caveat out there. Also, what I might consider sound logic/reason/evidence I do understand that this is subjective and interpretive and so you may not view as equally compelling.

Regarding your second paragraph, if the god of the bible were to make himself clearly visible, there would be two options - follow the clearly available religion or have no religion, you would have an informed choice. My point was was that there are hundreds, if not thousands of religions in the world, all believing they have the right religion, and that is indication that the god believed in by Christians has not made himself apparent.

I get the sense here that you're not necessarily speaking of 'sight' visibility (maybe this is the case, let me know if so), but more so as being overtly apparent (all facts point to the conclusion of a creator existing and that this creator is the one referenced in the Christian Bible). I believe you are correct that there may be hundreds or even thousands of religions in the world today. If there was less variety, more unification of a central, common belief/faith, you would find it more compelling.

Having eluded to this before, a common condition of all people is to be free from under the authority of another (not just talking about God here, even under the authority of another person). Because of this inherent condition, there is what I'd call a bias against the idea of a God. The fact that of the now ~7 billion people on the planet, ~6 billion believe in some supreme being is really counterintuitive to the
desire to be free. Why do all these people want to be accountable to some higher, supernatural power... do all of these people have some form of schizophrenia? Well, certainly not and so I conclude that from this fact, there is an established possibility of a higher power. Why so many variations though? Well, back to the common condition where all want to be free from under the authority of another, people have in fact re-defined what they want their god and their religion to be about. Some have a god that is indignant and is never satisfied, others have a god, gods, or divine spirits that is aloof and disinterested, others that have a loving god, and so on... Woven throughout all of these may be (to varying degrees) some truth. In spite of many false religions, this would not take away that truth and a true God (or gods) may exist and is indicative to the effect.

While many religions exist, you may be surprised to know that the two dominant religions (Christianity and Islam) represent about half of the world's population and both contain the books penned by Moses and both recognize Jesus (with different views on Him). When we look beyond the number of religions, while there are some stark contrasts between Christianity and Islam, there are also many common threads of truth between the two and so there may be more of a unified truth than at first blush.

In answer to your third paragraph, there are two sections of this. Firstly god who created the universe. I just cannot get my head around a "thing" which can just "think" the entire universe into existence, with all its vastness and complexity. Where did this thing labelled god come from, who or what made god? I accept there are mysteries in the universe and science cannot explain everything, maybe it never will, but it seems to have got quite close to the start of the universe with the big bang theory. What happened to cause the big bang is still unexplained, but I just don't feel it is correct to say, as some do, well we can't explain that therefore it must have been god - that's not an answer because it doesn't explain where god came from, how it operates and where it is now. I do accept there may be some mysterious force in the universe so far beyond our comprehension that we label it "god" but the possibility of a god like creator seems to me to be too far fetched.

Natural law, cause and effect - a big bang and what sprang forth is the universe. While there are differences in opinion on the topic of origins within Christian circles in terms of how and when God created everything, you may be interested to know that many Christians believe the big bang is the mechanism God used to create the universe (as the Bible puts it, "He stretched out the heavens"). This is, I think, where what I find compelling and convincing that you may not - that is okay. Logically speaking, only nothing can come from nothing. If the big bang did happen and all the physical matter of the universe was compressed into an area the size of a single particle, even that single particle could not have come from nowhere. Maybe it just always existed? Doubtfully, that would represent eternity past relative to today, making today eternity future relative to the past. We cannot arrive at the present from eternity past because there is an infinite amount of time between eternity past and the present. We are; however, here in the present and so there was a finite beginning and a finite amount of matter that did not come from nowhere--this is consistent with what we are told in the Bible. Still, not definitive that God exists and that Christianity is the one true religion, but it does add to the plausibility that this may be true.

Now, does the universe look 'created'? This is subjective. To me, if all the matter had to exist in a tiny particle that rapidly expanded (some scientists theorize the big bang expanded faster than the speed of light) - this is like a major explosion, right? I mean, nothing like we've ever seen or could imagine - yet we see countless formed stars, planets, moons, etc... with our own planet so finely tuned as to support life with seasons, an atmosphere, etc... Seems there is an Arabian proverb that goes something like, "All sunshine makes a desert" and so without seasons, our planet would not be very habitable. To me this feels intentional and not just the result of random chance. Going back to nothing comes from nothing, as I ponder all of the information coded into the DNA of all life (not to mention the DNA mechanisms that are needed to be able to read the DNA coding itself), the statistical probability of 'intelligence' just showing up from nowhere to consistently replicate these billions of codes that not only operate linearly, but also 3-dimensionally with an added 4th dimension of time in that our DNA actually changes with time/events - allowing our bodies to adjust to changing conditions... well is pretty much as close to 0 (zero) as can be - if this is all the result of random chance. No more can intelligence come from nothing than all the matter in the universe come from nothing.

Then there is the god of the bible. Lets say I'm wrong and there is a go who started the universe off, there are billions of stars in our galaxy, and billions of galaxies, way to numerous to attempt to count. The universe has existed for 13 billion years and the earth for 6 billion, yet we are expected to believe that this creator god is interested in the personal behaviour of a few puny humans on a tiny speck stuck in one corner of the vast universe, I just cannot believe that. The bible itself is fundamentally flawed, the fall of Adam and Eve, the talking serpent, the flood, Jonah and the fish, Lots wife to name just a few all to me seem to be just ludicrous, hence the bible cannot be the divine word of god. Then there is salvation. Let's say I'm wrong in all respects and there will be a judgement. The Christian faith says that only those who accept Jesus will go to heaven, I just cannot accept that an all powerful and loving god will exclude (for example) Einstein, Gandhi, David Attenborough and ALL atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Shinto's, Buddhists, Native Americans..... (you get the picture) from his paradise.

The beginning sentences here are very reminiscent of Psalm 8:4. There are definitely some pretty audacious claims in the Christian Bible. I do not find them less reasonable; however, than the idea of believing something can come from nothing and that (to me) the overwhelming evidence of design of the universe and our DNA points to a designer. Further, if (and it's a big IF) all things in the universe solely happen through natural law, where do natural laws come from without a law giver? There are numerous verses from the Bible that support the idea that God holds all things together (what you and I would call natural law):
13 Bible verses about God Sustaining Creation
Still perhaps not definitive that God exists and Christianity is the one true religion, but I'm just staking a few truths along the way here that point to it's possibility.

Is Jesus the way, the truth, and the life and no man will come to the Father, except through Him? Well, this is what He claimed (that He is God). This is where the major religions have division. Many find issue with the idea of only one way to heaven, many. How can a loving God insist that we accept Jesus with the consequence being eternal punishment in hell, separated from God even though by anyone's standard they are good people, doing good things? I think this, to an extent, depends on our perspective an how we see ourselves. Worth asking yourself is: Am I a good person? If so by whose standards, yours or God's? Have you ever sinned? The Bible says all have sinned and fall short of God's standard, all is pretty all-inclusive. God is perfect and holy and will not allow the presence of sin in His kingdom (if He did, He would not be perfect and holy, let alone righteous or just). If all this is true about God and a god exists, and this God is the God of the Christian Bible (which so far there have been some good indicators it may be) then none of us meet the standard of going to heaven. As you know, there is more to the story though. Unlike all others, Jesus lived a perfect life (He is the Son of God) and by accepting Him as our Lord and Savior, our unrighteousness is exchanged for His righteousness and our past/present/future sins are all forgiven. There still remains the unsettled matter; however, that there is a penalty for sin - no getting around it - it is death. And so, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. As was predicted by scripture long before His birth, after 3 days Jesus rose from the grave, and was observed by hundreds of eye witnesses.

Worth calling out here is that if God does not exist, you and I have no basis for having issue with the actions of others. Without moral law (which we all have), as could only be given by a moral law giver, everyone is free to do as they please so long as they feel it is the 'right' thing to do or at least that their actions are justified. If someone goes on a shooting rampage or flies a couple of 767's into tall skyscrapers, who are we to judge or wage war against such actions? Instead, we should just look at this with an attitude of indifference and move on - hey it wasn't the first time and it won't be the last time. But it doesn't work that way does it - these human actions "has caused, and still does cause, untold misery around the world." While God is a loving God, He is also a God of justice and He will carry out judgment (rightfully so) on those who unrepentantly violate His commandments. All 10 commandments can be broken, and all 10 can be forgiven - all of them. For the gunman, the terrorist, the murderr, adulterer, the thief, the liar, idolater, and slanderer there is grace and forgiveness made available through Jesus Christ. Seems less dogmatic and unfair when it is put into perspective.

I respect anyone for their belief, faith is a personal thing, but what I do get frustrated with is the dogma of religion and the certainty of some that their religion is correct and others are wrong. That human attitude has caused, and still does cause, untold misery around the world.

Likewise, I respect your views and position on the topic as well sir. I do want to clarify to your opening statements of "I have neither accepted nor rejected Jesus, I do not believe that Jesus was divine, the 'son of God'" is a rejection of who Jesus claimed to be (that He is not divine), and so this is a rejection of Him. I hope to hear back from you soon, have a good day - it's almost the weekend!

 

[Dave RP]

Thank you for the well-thought responses and the time you have taken to chat with me on the subject - it is sincerely appreciated! From your responses, I would take it that your views toward religion and the idea of a god are based on scientific knowledge, logic, and reason and so I will try to stay within these areas. As you know, there is a degree of faith required in ascribing to any belief so I do put that caveat out there. Also, what I might consider sound logic/reason/evidence I do understand that this is subjective and interpretive and so you may not view as equally compelling.


I get the sense here that you're not necessarily speaking of 'sight' visibility (maybe this is the case, let me know if so), but more so as being overtly apparent (all facts point to the conclusion of a creator existing and that this creator is the one referenced in the Christian Bible). I believe you are correct that there may be hundreds or even thousands of religions in the world today. If there was less variety, more unification of a central, common belief/faith, you would find it more compelling.

Having eluded to this before, a common condition of all people is to be free from under the authority of another (not just talking about God here, even under the authority of another person). Because of this inherent condition, there is what I'd call a bias against the idea of a God. The fact that of the now ~7 billion people on the planet, ~6 billion believe in some supreme being is really counterintuitive to the
desire to be free. Why do all these people want to be accountable to some higher, supernatural power... do all of these people have some form of schizophrenia? Well, certainly not and so I conclude that from this fact, there is an established possibility of a higher power. Why so many variations though? Well, back to the common condition where all want to be free from under the authority of another, people have in fact re-defined what they want their god and their religion to be about. Some have a god that is indignant and is never satisfied, others have a god, gods, or divine spirits that is aloof and disinterested, others that have a loving god, and so on... Woven throughout all of these may be (to varying degrees) some truth. In spite of many false religions, this would not take away that truth and a true God (or gods) may exist and is indicative to the effect.

While many religions exist, you may be surprised to know that the two dominant religions (Christianity and Islam) represent about half of the world's population and both contain the books penned by Moses and both recognize Jesus (with different views on Him). When we look beyond the number of religions, while there are some stark contrasts between Christianity and Islam, there are also many common threads of truth between the two and so there may be more of a unified truth than at first blush.


Natural law, cause and effect - a big bang and what sprang forth is the universe. While there are differences in opinion on the topic of origins within Christian circles in terms of how and when God created everything, you may be interested to know that many Christians believe the big bang is the mechanism God used to create the universe (as the Bible puts it, "He stretched out the heavens"). This is, I think, where what I find compelling and convincing that you may not - that is okay. Logically speaking, only nothing can come from nothing. If the big bang did happen and all the physical matter of the universe was compressed into an area the size of a single particle, even that single particle could not have come from nowhere. Maybe it just always existed? Doubtfully, that would represent eternity past relative to today, making today eternity future relative to the past. We cannot arrive at the present from eternity past because there is an infinite amount of time between eternity past and the present. We are; however, here in the present and so there was a finite beginning and a finite amount of matter that did not come from nowhere--this is consistent with what we are told in the Bible. Still, not definitive that God exists and that Christianity is the one true religion, but it does add to the plausibility that this may be true.

Now, does the universe look 'created'? This is subjective. To me, if all the matter had to exist in a tiny particle that rapidly expanded (some scientists theorize the big bang expanded faster than the speed of light) - this is like a major explosion, right? I mean, nothing like we've ever seen or could imagine - yet we see countless formed stars, planets, moons, etc... with our own planet so finely tuned as to support life with seasons, an atmosphere, etc... Seems there is an Arabian proverb that goes something like, "All sunshine makes a desert" and so without seasons, our planet would not be very habitable. To me this feels intentional and not just the result of random chance. Going back to nothing comes from nothing, as I ponder all of the information coded into the DNA of all life (not to mention the DNA mechanisms that are needed to be able to read the DNA coding itself), the statistical probability of 'intelligence' just showing up from nowhere to consistently replicate these billions of codes that not only operate linearly, but also 3-dimensionally with an added 4th dimension of time in that our DNA actually changes with time/events - allowing our bodies to adjust to changing conditions... well is pretty much as close to 0 (zero) as can be - if this is all the result of random chance. No more can intelligence come from nothing than all the matter in the universe come from nothing.


The beginning sentences here are very reminiscent of Psalm 8:4. There are definitely some pretty audacious claims in the Christian Bible. I do not find them less reasonable; however, than the idea of believing something can come from nothing and that (to me) the overwhelming evidence of design of the universe and our DNA points to a designer. Further, if (and it's a big IF) all things in the universe solely happen through natural law, where do natural laws come from without a law giver? There are numerous verses from the Bible that support the idea that God holds all things together (what you and I would call natural law):
13 Bible verses about God Sustaining Creation
Still perhaps not definitive that God exists and Christianity is the one true religion, but I'm just staking a few truths along the way here that point to it's possibility.

Is Jesus the way, the truth, and the life and no man will come to the Father, except through Him? Well, this is what He claimed (that He is God). This is where the major religions have division. Many find issue with the idea of only one way to heaven, many. How can a loving God insist that we accept Jesus with the consequence being eternal punishment in hell, separated from God even though by anyone's standard they are good people, doing good things? I think this, to an extent, depends on our perspective an how we see ourselves. Worth asking yourself is: Am I a good person? If so by whose standards, yours or God's? Have you ever sinned? The Bible says all have sinned and fall short of God's standard, all is pretty all-inclusive. God is perfect and holy and will not allow the presence of sin in His kingdom (if He did, He would not be perfect and holy, let alone righteous or just). If all this is true about God and a god exists, and this God is the God of the Christian Bible (which so far there have been some good indicators it may be) then none of us meet the standard of going to heaven. As you know, there is more to the story though. Unlike all others, Jesus lived a perfect life (He is the Son of God) and by accepting Him as our Lord and Savior, our unrighteousness is exchanged for His righteousness and our past/present/future sins are all forgiven. There still remains the unsettled matter; however, that there is a penalty for sin - no getting around it - it is death. And so, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. As was predicted by scripture long before His birth, after 3 days Jesus rose from the grave, and was observed by hundreds of eye witnesses.

Worth calling out here is that if God does not exist, you and I have no basis for having issue with the actions of others. Without moral law (which we all have), as could only be given by a moral law giver, everyone is free to do as they please so long as they feel it is the 'right' thing to do or at least that their actions are justified. If someone goes on a shooting rampage or flies a couple of 767's into tall skyscrapers, who are we to judge or wage war against such actions? Instead, we should just look at this with an attitude of indifference and move on - hey it wasn't the first time and it won't be the last time. But it doesn't work that way does it - these human actions "has caused, and still does cause, untold misery around the world." While God is a loving God, He is also a God of justice and He will carry out judgment (rightfully so) on those who unrepentantly violate His commandments. All 10 commandments can be broken, and all 10 can be forgiven - all of them. For the gunman, the terrorist, the murderr, adulterer, the thief, the liar, idolater, and slanderer there is grace and forgiveness made available through Jesus Christ. Seems less dogmatic and unfair when it is put into perspective.


Likewise, I respect your views and position on the topic as well sir. I do want to clarify to your opening statements of "I have neither accepted nor rejected Jesus, I do not believe that Jesus was divine, the 'son of God'" is a rejection of who Jesus claimed to be (that He is not divine), and so this is a rejection of Him. I hope to hear back from you soon, have a good day - it's almost the weekend!

Thanks for your long and detailed response, and I’ll use an English expression here and say “cheers mate”

I’ll tell you why I’m interested in all this, my current “girlfriend”, (astrange concept as I’m 61 and she’s 55) is a committed Christian. We are an “item” but we don’t live together, we see each other weekends and occasionally in midweek, she lives outside London and I live in town so we work around that. She’s “sinning” with me but we love each other, right now for various reasons marriage or cohabitation is not on the cards, would god really punish her with eternal damnation for falling in love with me?

I fully get the something from nothing argument, how did the universe start? It seems the evidence for a “Big Bang” is pretty strong, at least in theoretical physics, but what preceded or caused the Big Bang is unknown. What happened...... who knows but by the same argument, where did god come from.

I’m not sure about evidence for design, we look at the world from a earth centric viewpoint, but think about the huge number of stars and galaxies, billions upon billions, perhaps just by chance it was our planet that had everything just right for life to take hold? Maybe it is incredibly rare, and we just happen to be the 1 in 100,000,000 chance.

Anyway, it’s nearly the weekend, so goodnight.

David

 

[NobleMouse]

Thanks for your long and detailed response, and I’ll use an English expression here and say “cheers mate”

Ahhhhh, 'Cheers mate' brings me back as my Dad was in the military when I was growing up and from 1990 - 1992 we were stationed in England (RAF Brampton), not too far from Huntingdon. The name Piccadilly Circus still makes me grin to this day - I think I just like the way it sounds.

I’ll tell you why I’m interested in all this, my current “girlfriend”, (astrange concept as I’m 61 and she’s 55) is a committed Christian. We are an “item” but we don’t live together, we see each other weekends and occasionally in midweek, she lives outside London and I live in town so we work around that. She’s “sinning” with me but we love each other, right now for various reasons marriage or cohabitation is not on the cards, would god really punish her with eternal damnation for falling in love with me?

Ah okay - so here's the deal on sin. The only unpardonable sin, as we're told in the Bible, is blaspheming the Holy Spirit--that is, a state of continued and intentional rejection of God. All other sin is forgivable. This relationship between you and your girlfriend, I don't think it is all that uncommon, even within Christian circles. That said, should we continue to sin that grace may abound? By no means! (Romans 6:1-4). Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Will God really punish your girlfriend with eternal damnation for this? I cannot pretend to know the condition of her heart towards God as only God knows. I suspect, if she is truly a born-again Christian she probably has a lot of inner conflict regarding the relationship between you two. On the one hand, she has genuine feelings (love) toward you but she knows too that the relationship has moved into an area that God has designed specifically for marriage and there is a sense of guilt that troubles her. If she is a truly born-again Christian then I am a firm believer that once some is saved they are always saved, they cannot be snatched out of His hand as we're told in John 10:28. When we sin (as no Christian is completely absent from sin until they are present with the Lord... when we go to heaven) we need to repent, to change - turn away from that which is outside God's will for us. For you and your girlfriend, this would mean establishing some boundaries within the relationship until you two are married. I know, it sucks my friend but is the right thing to do. This should not have a detrimental impact on the relationship, in fact I propose it will strengthen by showing that you want to be respectful of her faith. Obviously you're not twisting her arm into the relationship as it is today, but this will show her your commitment and a deeper, richer love that you have for her, by honoring that which is required by her faith.

I fully get the something from nothing argument, how did the universe start? It seems the evidence for a “Big Bang” is pretty strong, at least in theoretical physics, but what preceded or caused the Big Bang is unknown. What happened...... who knows but by the same argument, where did god come from.

You asked the question about who created God in your prior post and I apologize I did not touch on that. A degree of faith required on this, but the belief is that God is eternal. He existed before time in eternity past, is here in the present, and will continue to exist into eternity future. In essence, God is not created, He is the creator. Is this plausible without violating any given known truth that most accept to be true here in the present? For most, the idea that a god could have created everything does not seem less reasonable or logical than any other going theory and as you pointed out the cause of the big bang is unknown. Trying to be as objective and unbiased as I can, I understand that some will suggest that the cause of the big bang has just not yet been discovered by science; however, I find it equally rational/logical to propose a supreme being was the cause. Just as there will be no order in my house if my wife and I do not enforce it (4 kids, 2 dogs, 1 cat), neither can there be order in the universe without an intelligent supreme being to bring that order - intelligence and systems to interpret data do not form themselves.

I’m not sure about evidence for design, we look at the world from a earth centric viewpoint, but think about the huge number of stars and galaxies, billions upon billions, perhaps just by chance it was our planet that had everything just right for life to take hold? Maybe it is incredibly rare, and we just happen to be the 1 in 100,000,000 chance.

Anyway, it’s nearly the weekend, so goodnight.

David

Statistically speaking, I agree that there could be more than one 'earth' in the universe, in fact likely more than one in just our galaxy. The prevailing thought is that given similar conditions of another planet with a sun similar to ours with the right proximity to the planet and similar atmospheric / terrestrial conditions, this should provide for prime conditions for life similar to earth. A question we each have to consider and I'm sure you've considered as well is: Am I going to not believe there is a god on the basis of what could be (though not proven, and very possibly not proven in my own lifetime)? Without direct, conclusive evidence of there not being a god, and good, observable evidence of order and intentional, purposeful functions and processes that supports the real possibility there is a god, will you and I bank on that which we suppose but don't have any way of knowing to be true, or will be bank on the plausible for which evidence generally points in favor. For me, as is of no surprise, I see order, design, intelligence, physical and moral laws, processes and functions with complexity that surpasses even our current understanding and so I can only conclude there must be a creator.

On that note, you have yourself a great weekend (perhaps enjoy a hot tea and a scone for me) and hope we have the chance to chat again maybe this next week!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Here's one of the prime reasons I would never be a believer in Christianity as I was taught it.

1. The only way to salvation and eternal life is through belief in Jesus Christ
2. Therefore all who do not believe in jesus are doomed to eternal damnation
3. Christian doctrine teaches that "innocents" who have not sinned will receive eternal life, babies, unborn children, possibly very young children.
4. Anyone else who has reached adulthood and not embraced, worshipped or believed in Jesus will suffer eternal torment.

Therefore, imagine there is a huge bomb blast in (say) Baghdad (an unfortunately common occurrence) which kills 300 people.

Lets say 30 of them were committed Christians, they get eternal life with god.

There were 30 babies and young children, they get eternal life with god.

There were 240 Muslims and non believers, some of them had lived blameless lives, had followed their god correctly, had done charitable works, had been exemplary citizens, they're in eternal damnation - all of them whereas their children are in eternal salvation.

This is not the actions of a caring loving god, and this is the reason I say that in the event there is a god and an afterlife, it is the same god for everyone, not just one cult, and if there is a judgement it'll be based on how you lived your life not who you happened to worship.

Thoughts?

This is my honest opinion.

I think God has the right to want/desire the beings He created to love Him because they want to love Him and not just create robots or something.

We all desire to love, but an even stronger desire we have as human beings is to be loved in return, by whomever we ourselves love.

Also, many people IMHO do not realize what a great gift we have been given by God. To truly be able to create and live the lives we want or choose to live by each of our choices. No one wants to live in China if you can only have one child or under a dictatorship like South Korea. Being told what we can and cannot do and having many things restricted or rules made by a dictator to keep people in line. Or even Hitler who was disgusting when he decided he had the right to kill how many tens of thousands of people for no reason at all but ancestry.

There is more, but I'll wait for your response and put some of it in that post.

 

[Dave RP]

Ahhhhh, 'Cheers mate' brings me back as my Dad was in the military when I was growing up and from 1990 - 1992 we were stationed in England (RAF Brampton), not too far from Huntingdon. The name Piccadilly Circus still makes me grin to this day - I think I just like the way it sounds.


Ah okay - so here's the deal on sin. The only unpardonable sin, as we're told in the Bible, is blaspheming the Holy Spirit--that is, a state of continued and intentional rejection of God. All other sin is forgivable. This relationship between you and your girlfriend, I don't think it is all that uncommon, even within Christian circles. That said, should we continue to sin that grace may abound? By no means! (Romans 6:1-4). Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Will God really punish your girlfriend with eternal damnation for this? I cannot pretend to know the condition of her heart towards God as only God knows. I suspect, if she is truly a born-again Christian she probably has a lot of inner conflict regarding the relationship between you two. On the one hand, she has genuine feelings (love) toward you but she knows too that the relationship has moved into an area that God has designed specifically for marriage and there is a sense of guilt that troubles her. If she is a truly born-again Christian then I am a firm believer that once some is saved they are always saved, they cannot be snatched out of His hand as we're told in John 10:28. When we sin (as no Christian is completely absent from sin until they are present with the Lord... when we go to heaven) we need to repent, to change - turn away from that which is outside God's will for us. For you and your girlfriend, this would mean establishing some boundaries within the relationship until you two are married. I know, it sucks my friend but is the right thing to do. This should not have a detrimental impact on the relationship, in fact I propose it will strengthen by showing that you want to be respectful of her faith. Obviously you're not twisting her arm into the relationship as it is today, but this will show her your commitment and a deeper, richer love that you have for her, by honoring that which is required by her faith.


You asked the question about who created God in your prior post and I apologize I did not touch on that. A degree of faith required on this, but the belief is that God is eternal. He existed before time in eternity past, is here in the present, and will continue to exist into eternity future. In essence, God is not created, He is the creator. Is this plausible without violating any given known truth that most accept to be true here in the present? For most, the idea that a god could have created everything does not seem less reasonable or logical than any other going theory and as you pointed out the cause of the big bang is unknown. Trying to be as objective and unbiased as I can, I understand that some will suggest that the cause of the big bang has just not yet been discovered by science; however, I find it equally rational/logical to propose a supreme being was the cause. Just as there will be no order in my house if my wife and I do not enforce it (4 kids, 2 dogs, 1 cat), neither can there be order in the universe without an intelligent supreme being to bring that order - intelligence and systems to interpret data do not form themselves.


Statistically speaking, I agree that there could be more than one 'earth' in the universe, in fact likely more than one in just our galaxy. The prevailing thought is that given similar conditions of another planet with a sun similar to ours with the right proximity to the planet and similar atmospheric / terrestrial conditions, this should provide for prime conditions for life similar to earth. A question we each have to consider and I'm sure you've considered as well is: Am I going to not believe there is a god on the basis of what could be (though not proven, and very possibly not proven in my own lifetime)? Without direct, conclusive evidence of there not being a god, and good, observable evidence of order and intentional, purposeful functions and processes that supports the real possibility there is a god, will you and I bank on that which we suppose but don't have any way of knowing to be true, or will be bank on the plausible for which evidence generally points in favor. For me, as is of no surprise, I see order, design, intelligence, physical and moral laws, processes and functions with complexity that surpasses even our current understanding and so I can only conclude there must be a creator.

On that note, you have yourself a great weekend (perhaps enjoy a hot tea and a scone for me) and hope we have the chance to chat again maybe this next week!

Thanks again fir the reply.

When I was a child I wrote in my school book that I wanted to go to see the clowns at Piccadilly Circus, which amused my teacher.

My relationship with Helen is very good, I never ask her to anything which makes her uncomfortable, she’s says she’s happy with how we are on the basis that she prayed to meet someone she could be with, and god sent me. That’s her theory anyway.

As for the origins of the universe, who knows if science will ever come up with a plausible explanation. I’ve read some of Hawkings theories and even in layman’s terms they’re very difficult to understand but he seemed to be saying that the universe also has always existed but in a different state? I said in an earlier post that I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a force of nature so far beyond our ability to understand it, that we labelled it god, and perhaps that is the common god applicable to all?

However there is then a colloidal, mighty leap from a creator or unknown force of nature, to a god that is involved in the lives of humanity. That I find too incredible to believe.

You asked before what evidence of god I would find believable, in respect of the god of the Christian bible. I would say I would have to see god directly at work in the world, almost like a proper Old Testament miracle. Belief in this god requires belief in heaven - where is it, hell - where is it, angels - what and where are they, Satan - what is it, where is it and why can’t an all powerful god just defeat him? All of these require yet more faith in something unseen, unavailable, unknowable and to my mind, impossible. So if a host of angels appeared praising god and Jesus, that would get my attention, of if god parted an ocean that would work. Actually if he appeared and cleaned the plastic out of the oceans and dumped it back to the door of whoever dropped it, that would do!

So, I’m sorry if I appear to be negative but whilst the possibility of a force

 

[Dave RP]

Thanks again fir the reply.

When I was a child I wrote in my school book that I wanted to go to see the clowns at Piccadilly Circus, which amused my teacher.

My relationship with Helen is very good, I never ask her to anything which makes her uncomfortable, she’s says she’s happy with how we are on the basis that she prayed to meet someone she could be with, and god sent me. That’s her theory anyway.

As for the origins of the universe, who knows if science will ever come up with a plausible explanation. I’ve read some of Hawkings theories and even in layman’s terms they’re very difficult to understand but he seemed to be saying that the universe also has always existed but in a different state? I said in an earlier post that I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a force of nature so far beyond our ability to understand it, that we labelled it god, and perhaps that is the common god applicable to all?

However there is then a colloidal, mighty leap from a creator or unknown force of nature, to a god that is involved in the lives of humanity. That I find too incredible to believe.

You asked before what evidence of god I would find believable, in respect of the god of the Christian bible. I would say I would have to see god directly at work in the world, almost like a proper Old Testament miracle. Belief in this god requires belief in heaven - where is it, hell - where is it, angels - what and where are they, Satan - what is it, where is it and why can’t an all powerful god just defeat him? All of these require yet more faith in something unseen, unavailable, unknowable and to my mind, impossible. So if a host of angels appeared praising god and Jesus, that would get my attention, of if god parted an ocean that would work. Actually if he appeared and cleaned the plastic out of the oceans and dumped it back to the door of whoever dropped it, that would do!

So, I’m sorry if I appear to be negative but whilst the possibility of a force

Oops..... continuing... force is there, the rest of it just seems too unlikely to me. That’s before I get into “eternal life” which is the most bizarre thought of all.

Have a good Sunday, the weather is horrible here.

 

[Dave RP]

This is my honest opinion.

I think God has the right to want/desire the beings He created to love Him because they want to love Him and not just create robots or something.

We all desire to love, but an even stronger desire we have as human beings is to be loved in return, by whomever we ourselves love.

Also, many people IMHO do not realize what a great gift we have been given by God. To truly be able to create and live the lives we want or choose to live by each of our choices. No one wants to live in China if you can only have one child or under a dictatorship like South Korea. Being told what we can and cannot do and having many things restricted or rules made by a dictator to keep people in line. Or even Hitler who was disgusting when he decided he had the right to kill how many tens of thousands of people for no reason at all but ancestry.

There is more, but I'll wait for your response and put some of it in that post.

I’m not really sure what I respond with. As I understand what you’re saying, god gives us all free will and doesn’t show himself, hence there is no apparent evidence of his existence but we must love him? If that’s the case, then I still say it’s just one god, Islam, Christianity, Hindu etc will all follow this one god.

To be honest all I see is humanity as a mixture, Some good, some bad but god ignoring us.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I’m not really sure what I respond with. As I understand what you’re saying, god gives us all free will and doesn’t show himself, hence there is no apparent evidence of his existence but we must love him? If that’s the case, then I still say it’s just one god, Islam, Christianity, Hindu etc will all follow this one god.

To be honest all I see is humanity as a mixture, Some good, some bad but god ignoring us.

Well I am not going to go down this road in this conversation about if a bunch of religions and the same God. That is probably a whole nother thread.

But the love God is very important in Christianity. Jesus said it is the most important command is “to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul”.

I think that is a huge reinforcement of God wanting us to love Him of our free will and choice.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Also we don't want to choose our beliefs based on the consequences of those beliefs, but rather because they represent the real world!

hear, hear!

Does the existence of God as described in the Bible best explain the existence of a universe from nothing?

No. Assertions, aren't explanations.

Are objective moral values, the fine-tuning of the universe for life, or the historical fact that cultures have an innate sense of awe at nature best explained by the existence of a personal, timeless, spaceless, immaterial being?

The first two need to be supported by evidence.
The third merely suggests a psychological tendency humans have.

So the answer is again "no".

 

[Dave RP]

Well I am not going to go down this road in this conversation about if a bunch of religions and the same God. That is probably a whole nother thread.

But the love God is very important in Christianity. Jesus said it is the most important command is “to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul”.

I think that is a huge reinforcement of God wanting us to love Him of our free will and choice.

Is a "command" from an unimaginably powerful being really getting to act from your own free will? I'm not being pedantic but to me if you believe in this god and you know that he "commands" you to love him or face the consequences (eternal damnation) that's equivalent to having an errant girlfriend standing in front of you with a loaded gun saying - "you do love me don't you" - I'd answer "yes my darling" but it certainly wouldn't be of my free will.

 

[NobleMouse]

Thanks again fir the reply.

When I was a child I wrote in my school book that I wanted to go to see the clowns at Piccadilly Circus, which amused my teacher.

Excellent - perfectly logical, and why shouldn't there be clowns at a place with the word 'circus' in the name. Ha ha!

My relationship with Helen is very good, I never ask her to anything which makes her uncomfortable, she’s says she’s happy with how we are on the basis that she prayed to meet someone she could be with, and god sent me. That’s her theory anyway.

That is great to hear! I hope things work out and the relationship is able to progress to a point where you two are able to get married and live together at some point.

As for the origins of the universe, who knows if science will ever come up with a plausible explanation. I’ve read some of Hawkings theories and even in layman’s terms they’re very difficult to understand but he seemed to be saying that the universe also has always existed but in a different state? I said in an earlier post that I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a force of nature so far beyond our ability to understand it, that we labelled it god, and perhaps that is the common god applicable to all?

However there is then a colloidal, mighty leap from a creator or unknown force of nature, to a god that is involved in the lives of humanity. That I find too incredible to believe.

I'm not too familiar with the details of Hawkings work, though would be interested in his perspective in how he gets around the idea of the universe always existed but somehow we've arrived at the present from some eternity past. I suppose he'd propose time did not exist in this alternate state of the universe, but in a field that is so highly theoretical (astronomy) I suppose it would not be too difficult from him to invent some argument to dispel any logic challenge I would bring forth.

You asked before what evidence of god I would find believable, in respect of the god of the Christian bible. I would say I would have to see god directly at work in the world, almost like a proper Old Testament miracle. Belief in this god requires belief in heaven - where is it, hell - where is it, angels - what and where are they, Satan - what is it, where is it and why can’t an all powerful god just defeat him? All of these require yet more faith in something unseen, unavailable, unknowable and to my mind, impossible. So if a host of angels appeared praising god and Jesus, that would get my attention, of if god parted an ocean that would work. Actually if he appeared and cleaned the plastic out of the oceans and dumped it back to the door of whoever dropped it, that would do!

So, I’m sorry if I appear to be negative but whilst the possibility of a force

I wouldn't mind seeing the parting of the red sea again myself. I do find it incredible that anyone who did witness these miracles, the death, burial & resurrection of Christ, all of the miracles He performed, all of the miracles the apostles themselves performed in His name, would not have believed in God and who Jesus claimed to be. That said, the Bible does indicate that many still did not believe and many just continually asked for more signs, more works, more miracles from Jesus.

Keeping in mind that the events of the Bible happened some 2,000 years ago now (before there was the internet, Wikipedia, MSNBC, or even widely spread news publications) there is evidence for the existence of Jesus in historical records outside of the Bible. The following is a good article (and you may have already seen this or others similar):

Did Jesus Exist? Searching for Evidence Beyond the Bible - Biblical Archaeology Society

The position I've come to take, in time, is that even though I'd love to see a miracle like Lazarus being brought back from the dead by Jesus and witnessing such a miracle would make it very easy to believe, I have to recognize that even if I did see such a miracle, the real possibility is that if doubt existed before, it would very possibly still creep back into my mind. Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29). With today's technology, the eye and the mind can be tricked if one is not careful, so it is very easy to rationalize away a miracle even if were real. I think of reports about people who are mysteriously and suddenly healed from diseases, or die on the operating table and for reasons the doctors in the room cannot explain, come back to life. Are these miracles, real and happening today, or some unknown natural phenomenon that is just not yet understood. There are certainly different camps on these kinds of events. What seems to be common to all views is that most people believe what they are taught by someone who is/was of significance to them and/or sometimes our beliefs are formed from memorable experience(s).

One of the things I enjoy debating with other Christians on this forum is the age of the earth and how God created everything. Some believe in billions of years, big bangs, evolution while others believe God created things in the timing/fashion as given by the Bible. An argument I like to bring up regarding dinosaurs specifically is that they supposedly died off around 65-70 million years ago yet we have stories in virtually every culture from Europe, Asia, South America and North America (and others) of hunting great dragons or monsterous lizards? These legends go back to well before archaeology took off as a branch of science and even before the first known dinosaur bones were thought to have been dug up in the 17th century (originally the femur was believed to belong to a giant, but later concluded to have likely belonged to a dinosaur). As you may know, complete fossils are rarely found and yet the descriptions in these legends give an accurate portrayal of what we know to be dinosaurs, so did they really die of 65-70 million years ago?? The Bible itself even references in the book of Job a behemoth with a tail like a cedar... sounds awfully similar to some kind of Sauropodomorph - the long neck/long tailed goliaths of the fossil record. So, we have both Biblical and non-Biblical sources that corroborate the idea that people and dinosaurs co-existed at the same time in history.

Now, I'm not here looking to debate the age of the earth or when dinosaurs existed; the point here is that we can be taught one thing, but further review can reveal evidence that strongly points to a different truth. Which version of the truth we accept is driven by our bias towards these truths. Our bias is driven by our perception. Is your perception of the God of the Christian Bible that He is loving, made you lovingly, knows of your sin, died for your sin, and provided a way for your eternal salvation through Jesus? Or by contrast, is your perception of God that He is harsh, demanding, ruthless (especially considering the pagan people groups of the Old Testament He commanded that all be destroyed - men, women and children)? Is it that Helen will go to be with the Lord when she dies or will God say, "Sorry, you once were saved but you messed up with Dave and so it's to hell with you? God Himself teaches that those who are His cannot be snatched out of His hand - as I mentioned previously, if Helen is truly a born again believer, her eternity is sealed with God and I'll go on to say that there is no power in heaven or on earth that can break this seal. Her name will be written in the Lamb's Book of Life as it is said.

I think you and I would both suppose she would like you to be there with her, one day when heaven is called home, and I'd be remissed as a Christian if I didn't say I'd like to meet you there one day as well. We don't have to fully understand all options or have reconciled all loose ends of all the world's religions and all possible view points before making Christianity an informed decision. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. You and I can accept Him knowing we may be wrong about a great many things and that the mysteries of life are unsettling and cause doubt, but whatever the outcome is in the end, we are trusting in Him who has knows the number of hairs on our heads (which for me is a steadily diminishing number), who said He is with us through all things and we will be with Him in glory, for eternity.

Now I'm not saying all of this to try to pressure you into a knee-jerk response, but I hope you'll give it reconsideration, that you'll talk to Helen about it and ask her to pray for you, and hope you will always keep an open mind and an open heart towards the possibility that God is pursuing you and this pursuit has no end and is driven by a love I cannot adequately portray with words.

 

[Dave RP]

Excellent - perfectly logical, and why shouldn't there be clowns at a place with the word 'circus' in the name. Ha ha!


That is great to hear! I hope things work out and the relationship is able to progress to a point where you two are able to get married and live together at some point.


I'm not too familiar with the details of Hawkings work, though would be interested in his perspective in how he gets around the idea of the universe always existed but somehow we've arrived at the present from some eternity past. I suppose he'd propose time did not exist in this alternate state of the universe, but in a field that is so highly theoretical (astronomy) I suppose it would not be too difficult from him to invent some argument to dispel any logic challenge I would bring forth.


I wouldn't mind seeing the parting of the red sea again myself. I do find it incredible that anyone who did witness these miracles, the death, burial & resurrection of Christ, all of the miracles He performed, all of the miracles the apostles themselves performed in His name, would not have believed in God and who Jesus claimed to be. That said, the Bible does indicate that many still did not believe and many just continually asked for more signs, more works, more miracles from Jesus.

Keeping in mind that the events of the Bible happened some 2,000 years ago now (before there was the internet, Wikipedia, MSNBC, or even widely spread news publications) there is evidence for the existence of Jesus in historical records outside of the Bible. The following is a good article (and you may have already seen this or others similar):

Did Jesus Exist? Searching for Evidence Beyond the Bible - Biblical Archaeology Society

The position I've come to take, in time, is that even though I'd love to see a miracle like Lazarus being brought back from the dead by Jesus and witnessing such a miracle would make it very easy to believe, I have to recognize that even if I did see such a miracle, the real possibility is that if doubt existed before, it would very possibly still creep back into my mind. Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29). With today's technology, the eye and the mind can be tricked if one is not careful, so it is very easy to rationalize away a miracle even if were real. I think of reports about people who are mysteriously and suddenly healed from diseases, or die on the operating table and for reasons the doctors in the room cannot explain, come back to life. Are these miracles, real and happening today, or some unknown natural phenomenon that is just not yet understood. There are certainly different camps on these kinds of events. What seems to be common to all views is that most people believe what they are taught by someone who is/was of significance to them and/or sometimes our beliefs are formed from memorable experience(s).

One of the things I enjoy debating with other Christians on this forum is the age of the earth and how God created everything. Some believe in billions of years, big bangs, evolution while others believe God created things in the timing/fashion as given by the Bible. An argument I like to bring up regarding dinosaurs specifically is that they supposedly died off around 65-70 million years ago yet we have stories in virtually every culture from Europe, Asia, South America and North America (and others) of hunting great dragons or monsterous lizards? These legends go back to well before archaeology took off as a branch of science and even before the first known dinosaur bones were thought to have been dug up in the 17th century (originally the femur was believed to belong to a giant, but later concluded to have likely belonged to a dinosaur). As you may know, complete fossils are rarely found and yet the descriptions in these legends give an accurate portrayal of what we know to be dinosaurs, so did they really die of 65-70 million years ago?? The Bible itself even references in the book of Job a behemoth with a tail like a cedar... sounds awfully similar to some kind of Sauropodomorph - the long neck/long tailed goliaths of the fossil record. So, we have both Biblical and non-Biblical sources that corroborate the idea that people and dinosaurs co-existed at the same time in history.

Now, I'm not here looking to debate the age of the earth or when dinosaurs existed; the point here is that we can be taught one thing, but further review can reveal evidence that strongly points to a different truth. Which version of the truth we accept is driven by our bias towards these truths. Our bias is driven by our perception. Is your perception of the God of the Christian Bible that He is loving, made you lovingly, knows of your sin, died for your sin, and provided a way for your eternal salvation through Jesus? Or by contrast, is your perception of God that He is harsh, demanding, ruthless (especially considering the pagan people groups of the Old Testament He commanded that all be destroyed - men, women and children)? Is it that Helen will go to be with the Lord when she dies or will God say, "Sorry, you once were saved but you messed up with Dave and so it's to hell with you? God Himself teaches that those who are His cannot be snatched out of His hand - as I mentioned previously, if Helen is truly a born again believer, her eternity is sealed with God and I'll go on to say that there is no power in heaven or on earth that can break this seal. Her name will be written in the Lamb's Book of Life as it is said.

I think you and I would both suppose she would like you to be there with her, one day when heaven is called home, and I'd be remissed as a Christian if I didn't say I'd like to meet you there one day as well. We don't have to fully understand all options or have reconciled all loose ends of all the world's religions and all possible view points before making Christianity an informed decision. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. You and I can accept Him knowing we may be wrong about a great many things and that the mysteries of life are unsettling and cause doubt, but whatever the outcome is in the end, we are trusting in Him who has knows the number of hairs on our heads (which for me is a steadily diminishing number), who said He is with us through all things and we will be with Him in glory, for eternity.

Now I'm not saying all of this to try to pressure you into a knee-jerk response, but I hope you'll give it reconsideration, that you'll talk to Helen about it and ask her to pray for you, and hope you will always keep an open mind and an open heart towards the possibility that God is pursuing you and this pursuit has no end and is driven by a love I cannot adequately portray with words.

Good morning. I have read your posts with interest, and I would say I completely respect your views and understand that what you are saying is from the heart and is the basis of your Christian faith.

I attended church with Helen on Sunday and listened to the sermon, hers is (by UK standards) quite a strict, evangelical church and this week the sermon was entitles "aware of the enemy". The enemy was Satan, he is trying to get you to sin, he is trying to get you to turn away from Jesus, Satan and his demons are working against your Christian ways, be ever alert........ Now this adds yet another mythical being into the mix, so we have god, Jesus and the holy spirit which can't be seen, heard, felt, touched and who exist everywhere without being detectable. At least we know Jesus is in Heaven, so he is not wandering around the earth but is in the the undetectable place called heaven. Satan and his demons however are wandering around the earth causing untold mischief, making Christians sin, making them lose their faith.... Satan and his demons are what? Fallen angels - yet another group of beings which can't be seen, touched, heard or felt, who are totally undetectable and live without sustenance. I'm sorry but I just can't get alongside all of that. God is all seeing, all knowing and all powerful yet he is unable to do anything about Satan. Then we have angels, well again there is no evidence of them, yet the bible talks about Angels and if you believe in the bible you have to believe in Angels, and again I just don't get that.

You ask "is your perception of God that He is harsh, demanding, ruthless (especially considering the pagan people groups of the Old Testament He commanded that all be destroyed - men, women and children)" - what I would say is that the old testament is clearly not able to be taken literally, there are just too many ludicrous stories and god comes over as an incredibly fickle and unpleasant being. Firstly "choosing" one group of people as "his" people when he made everyone is ridiculous. Then we have the fact that he decided it was acceptable to murder everyone in his creation in a flood, including innocent children, well that's particularly hideous. Then Sodom and Gomorrah and the destruction of everyone there including poor old Lots wife, let alone the behaviours of Lot and his daughters after. The god of the old testament does not warrant worship but he sure does warrant enormous fear, because it seems he can lose his temper at any moment and cause mass mayhem and destruction.

Then suddenly the god of the new testament is a completely different god, it's all love and goodwill to all men - but wait, god is unchanging and eternal, so something is going on as there are two totally different gods at work?

Whatever my thoughts about the origin of the universe, and as I said I accept there might be a mysterious force at work, maybe it is a godlike entity, however I just cannot understand how the bible can be considered the word of god when it is so fundamentally flawed.

I still do not believe that there is a heaven, but rightly or wrongly I remain convinced that if there is a god it will be the same god for everyone, that there will be no judgement based on what you happen to have believed. That would be so unfair. In my experience, the vast majority of practising Christians I have met were brought up in a Christian household, indoctrinated so to speak from a young age, why should god, who knows how we were made, exclude those who never receive this indoctrination?

Finally, eternal life in an unchanging new universe - that I really cannot get into my head - eternity as they say is an awful long time!!!!!!!

 

[Radagast]

girlfriend standing in front of you with a loaded gun saying - "you do love me don't you"

If you imagine that the girlfriend rescued you from jail, spent years nursing you through a fatal illness, donated a kidney to you, and a few other things; then you're starting to get a faint glimmer of reality.

 

[Dave RP]

If you imagine that the girlfriend rescued you from jail, spent years nursing you through a fatal illness, donated a kidney to you, and a few other things; then you're starting to get a faint glimmer of reality.

Well yes, if your alluding to god and he did all that of course you'd be pleased, and jolly good luck to you. However a cynic might say - god made you unwell then made you better, which was very good of him but why make you ill in the first place?

 

[Radagast]

However a cynic might say - god made you unwell then made you better

Which is of course not what we believe.

 

[Dave RP]

Which is of course not what we believe.

Sorry, my mistake. What is it you believe then? is it that god doesn't interfere in your getting unwell but might, at his own whim, interfere in you getting better? Have I understood the basis of this yet?

Would you for example, support a belief that a devout Christian gets ill, prays and recovers and god was involved, in the same hospital a non christian also got well after a serious illness and that was not god? It all seems a bit surreal to me?

 

[NobleMouse]

Good morning. I have read your posts with interest, and I would say I completely respect your views and understand that what you are saying is from the heart and is the basis of your Christian faith.

I attended church with Helen on Sunday and listened to the sermon, hers is (by UK standards) quite a strict, evangelical church and this week the sermon was entitles "aware of the enemy". The enemy was Satan, he is trying to get you to sin, he is trying to get you to turn away from Jesus, Satan and his demons are working against your Christian ways, be ever alert........ Now this adds yet another mythical being into the mix, so we have god, Jesus and the holy spirit which can't be seen, heard, felt, touched and who exist everywhere without being detectable. At least we know Jesus is in Heaven, so he is not wandering around the earth but is in the the undetectable place called heaven. Satan and his demons however are wandering around the earth causing untold mischief, making Christians sin, making them lose their faith.... Satan and his demons are what? Fallen angels - yet another group of beings which can't be seen, touched, heard or felt, who are totally undetectable and live without sustenance. I'm sorry but I just can't get alongside all of that. God is all seeing, all knowing and all powerful yet he is unable to do anything about Satan. Then we have angels, well again there is no evidence of them, yet the bible talks about Angels and if you believe in the bible you have to believe in Angels, and again I just don't get that.

That is great the two of you are going to church together! My family and I also attend an evangelical church, so I'll bet our views and theological doctrine is very similar to that of Helen's church. I certainly do not by any measurement know everything there is to know about the Bible, Satan, or sin, but here is what I do know:

Satan is a fallen angelic being, specifically a cherub. From what I understand, a cherub would be a high ranking angelic being within the kingdom of heaven. God created Satan (Lucifer); however, Satan desired to be equal with God and turned against God - subsequently Stan was cast down out of heaven. Satan is described in the Bible as the prince of the air (Ephesians 2:2) - the Earth is his realm (as he was cast out of heaven). Satan has waged a spiritual battle against God - seeking to destroy and devour the souls of those God created. Satan is a defeated enemy as God will send him, his demons, and those who have rejected God into the lake of fire (hell) for eternity at the conclusion to the final battle of Armageddon where Satan will be defeated as per God's plan.

Satan is usually given credit for the random, out-of-nowhere, evil thoughts that pop into our minds from time to time. Is this possible? Certainly, but I also acknowledge that we have a sin nature... ever since the first sin in the garden, it is the nature of mankind to sin. Look at any baby when they do not get their way on a continual basis and cry in anger... sin does not arise as a result of bad decisions in adulthood, but is inherently within each of us from the time we are born. As has been said: We are not sinners because we do bad things; we do bad things because we are sinners.

Did God not see Satan's rebellion our Adam & Eve's sin coming? Of course He saw it coming. While we do not have all the answers, we can know that the events that have transpired and continue to transpire in the spiritual realm are all part of God's plan. You may find the following informative:

https://www.mcleanbible.org/sites/d...es/OTChaps/otch2/IfGodKnewSatanWouldRebel.pdf

Something I think about too is that for us to recognize that God is good, perfect, righteous, holy, loving, and just, we must also know (and sometimes experience) bad, fallen, unrighteous, unholy, hateful, and unjust. Looking for perfection and never experiencing bad things in life negates the possibility of truly knowing the character of God. We were made to glorify and praise God and nothing will give us greater joy and purpose. That said, if you or I were perfect, why would we need a God, if we were pure and holy why would we need the righteousness of Christ, if we were good, why would we need or even necessarily want a relationship with a savior? Before we can desire to have a relationship with Jesus, we first need to recognize our need for a savior.

You ask "is your perception of God that He is harsh, demanding, ruthless (especially considering the pagan people groups of the Old Testament He commanded that all be destroyed - men, women and children)" - what I would say is that the old testament is clearly not able to be taken literally, there are just too many ludicrous stories and god comes over as an incredibly fickle and unpleasant being. Firstly "choosing" one group of people as "his" people when he made everyone is ridiculous. Then we have the fact that he decided it was acceptable to murder everyone in his creation in a flood, including innocent children, well that's particularly hideous. Then Sodom and Gomorrah and the destruction of everyone there including poor old Lots wife, let alone the behaviours of Lot and his daughters after. The god of the old testament does not warrant worship but he sure does warrant enormous fear, because it seems he can lose his temper at any moment and cause mass mayhem and destruction.

Then suddenly the god of the new testament is a completely different god, it's all love and goodwill to all men - but wait, god is unchanging and eternal, so something is going on as there are two totally different gods at work?

It is true that the Hebrews were God's chosen people, but possibly not in the exact sense that you may be thinking. God chose them as the people group in which Jesus would be born... from Abraham all the way down through David and ultimately to Mary and Joseph. We are all His children; as you have indicated - to say only one group is truly His is ridiculous. Jesus indicated that salvation is for the Jews and the Gentiles... unless you are a Jew, you fall into the other category (as do I) of being a Gentile.

As you have pointed out, there are acts and events from the Old Testament that are particularly harsh - as with the flood of Noah's time. We have to keep in mind that God saw no good in anyone (none at all - zero) except Noah and His family. Flood legends exist in many forms from many cultures (like the dragon legends I referenced before), and so this gives some non-biblical credibility to the possibility that an actual flood event occurred and that all people (except Noah and family) were destroyed in this flood. We tend to think in humanistic terms regarding this and other judgments from God, but if we look from God's perspective we have to understand that he was sorry He created mankind - there was evil continually as we're told. If God exists, and if He created everything (and everyone) does He not have the right to carry out His judgments on His creation as He wishes? To those God had destroyed by the Israelites, these were not Utopian peaceful societies just innocently ignorant of God, they worshiped false gods, cut open the pregnant women of those who opposed them, sacrificed their own children to these false gods, etc... not who we'd have over for Christmas dinner. Further, they were given warning, God sent prophets warning them... often with the prophets themselves being killed. Mercy and grace cannot continue indefinitely; this just makes for a push-over, a door mat, not a just God, not a good judge.

This God of wrath is still the same God (He is unchanging) so why does the picture of Him seem to change in the New Testament. We must recognize that God knew and saw our fallen condition, that we could not sufficiently "pull ourselves up by our boot straps" and live righteously according to His standards. And so, God sent His only Son as a sacrifice for our sins (John 3:16). I think of this in the same way as a physical law of nature. Just as for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so the penalty for sin is death and the payment is in the form of a blood sacrifice. Had God not poured out all of His wrath on Jesus for the sins of the world, but more specifically your sins and my sins, then I have no doubt that we would continue living as in Old Testament times and ways. God promised Noah the world would never be destroyed by a flood again; however, there is a coming judgment and this next judgment will instead be by fire.

Whatever my thoughts about the origin of the universe, and as I said I accept there might be a mysterious force at work, maybe it is a godlike entity, however I just cannot understand how the bible can be considered the word of god when it is so fundamentally flawed.

I still do not believe that there is a heaven, but rightly or wrongly I remain convinced that if there is a god it will be the same god for everyone, that there will be no judgement based on what you happen to have believed. That would be so unfair. In my experience, the vast majority of practising Christians I have met were brought up in a Christian household, indoctrinated so to speak from a young age, why should god, who knows how we were made, exclude those who never receive this indoctrination?

Finally, eternal life in an unchanging new universe - that I really cannot get into my head - eternity as they say is an awful long time!!!!!!!

God is the same (and is unchanging) for everyone. Just as a child will invent ways in their mind of making what their parents have indicated is unacceptable and twist it into an acceptable circumstance (an exception to the rule), so have the children of God invented different perceptions of who they want God to be (or not to be) and what is right (or wrong), what is true (and what is false). Many people live what is culturally moral lives - what their society deems appropriate and good. But God hasn't created us for the purpose of living up to cultural morality, but rather for the much greater and richer purpose of having a relationship with Him (for all eternity). We have all fallen short (the Christian, the Muslim, the Buddhist, the Atheist, etc...) of God's standard, but by His grace He has created away for His prodigal sons and daughters to return home when we are called. Eternity is a very long time; in fact, never ending right? God is also eternal and infinite, so just as there will be no end in time spent with Him in heaven, there will be no end of worship, no end of learning, no end of growing, no end of discovery, no end of His love. It will not be an eternity of sitting in a stone-walled, stained glass, hard-benched church singing the same hymn over and over God does not want us to share in eternal boredom with Him, but in eternal glory with Him.

Have a good one!

 

[Dave RP]

That is great the two of you are going to church together! My family and I also attend an evangelical church, so I'll bet our views and theological doctrine is very similar to that of Helen's church. I certainly do not by any measurement know everything there is to know about the Bible, Satan, or sin, but here is what I do know:

Satan is a fallen angelic being, specifically a cherub. From what I understand, a cherub would be a high ranking angelic being within the kingdom of heaven. God created Satan (Lucifer); however, Satan desired to be equal with God and turned against God - subsequently Stan was cast down out of heaven. Satan is described in the Bible as the prince of the air (Ephesians 2:2) - the Earth is his realm (as he was cast out of heaven). Satan has waged a spiritual battle against God - seeking to destroy and devour the souls of those God created. Satan is a defeated enemy as God will send him, his demons, and those who have rejected God into the lake of fire (hell) for eternity at the conclusion to the final battle of Armageddon where Satan will be defeated as per God's plan.

Satan is usually given credit for the random, out-of-nowhere, evil thoughts that pop into our minds from time to time. Is this possible? Certainly, but I also acknowledge that we have a sin nature... ever since the first sin in the garden, it is the nature of mankind to sin. Look at any baby when they do not get their way on a continual basis and cry in anger... sin does not arise as a result of bad decisions in adulthood, but is inherently within each of us from the time we are born. As has been said: We are not sinners because we do bad things; we do bad things because we are sinners.

Did God not see Satan's rebellion our Adam & Eve's sin coming? Of course He saw it coming. While we do not have all the answers, we can know that the events that have transpired and continue to transpire in the spiritual realm are all part of God's plan. You may find the following informative:

https://www.mcleanbible.org/sites/d...es/OTChaps/otch2/IfGodKnewSatanWouldRebel.pdf

Something I think about too is that for us to recognize that God is good, perfect, righteous, holy, loving, and just, we must also know (and sometimes experience) bad, fallen, unrighteous, unholy, hateful, and unjust. Looking for perfection and never experiencing bad things in life negates the possibility of truly knowing the character of God. We were made to glorify and praise God and nothing will give us greater joy and purpose. That said, if you or I were perfect, why would we need a God, if we were pure and holy why would we need the righteousness of Christ, if we were good, why would we need or even necessarily want a relationship with a savior? Before we can desire to have a relationship with Jesus, we first need to recognize our need for a savior.


It is true that the Hebrews were God's chosen people, but possibly not in the exact sense that you may be thinking. God chose them as the people group in which Jesus would be born... from Abraham all the way down through David and ultimately to Mary and Joseph. We are all His children; as you have indicated - to say only one group is truly His is ridiculous. Jesus indicated that salvation is for the Jews and the Gentiles... unless you are a Jew, you fall into the other category (as do I) of being a Gentile.

As you have pointed out, there are acts and events from the Old Testament that are particularly harsh - as with the flood of Noah's time. We have to keep in mind that God saw no good in anyone (none at all - zero) except Noah and His family. Flood legends exist in many forms from many cultures (like the dragon legends I referenced before), and so this gives some non-biblical credibility to the possibility that an actual flood event occurred and that all people (except Noah and family) were destroyed in this flood. We tend to think in humanistic terms regarding this and other judgments from God, but if we look from God's perspective we have to understand that he was sorry He created mankind - there was evil continually as we're told. If God exists, and if He created everything (and everyone) does He not have the right to carry out His judgments on His creation as He wishes? To those God had destroyed by the Israelites, these were not Utopian peaceful societies just innocently ignorant of God, they worshiped false gods, cut open the pregnant women of those who opposed them, sacrificed their own children to these false gods, etc... not who we'd have over for Christmas dinner. Further, they were given warning, God sent prophets warning them... often with the prophets themselves being killed. Mercy and grace cannot continue indefinitely; this just makes for a push-over, a door mat, not a just God, not a good judge.

This God of wrath is still the same God (He is unchanging) so why does the picture of Him seem to change in the New Testament. We must recognize that God knew and saw our fallen condition, that we could not sufficiently "pull ourselves up by our boot straps" and live righteously according to His standards. And so, God sent His only Son as a sacrifice for our sins (John 3:16). I think of this in the same way as a physical law of nature. Just as for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so the penalty for sin is death and the payment is in the form of a blood sacrifice. Had God not poured out all of His wrath on Jesus for the sins of the world, but more specifically your sins and my sins, then I have no doubt that we would continue living as in Old Testament times and ways. God promised Noah the world would never be destroyed by a flood again; however, there is a coming judgment and this next judgment will instead be by fire.


God is the same (and is unchanging) for everyone. Just as a child will invent ways in their mind of making what their parents have indicated is unacceptable and twist it into an acceptable circumstance (an exception to the rule), so have the children of God invented different perceptions of who they want God to be (or not to be) and what is right (or wrong), what is true (and what is false). Many people live what is culturally moral lives - what their society deems appropriate and good. But God hasn't created us for the purpose of living up to cultural morality, but rather for the much greater and richer purpose of having a relationship with Him (for all eternity). We have all fallen short (the Christian, the Muslim, the Buddhist, the Atheist, etc...) of God's standard, but by His grace He has created away for His prodigal sons and daughters to return home when we are called. Eternity is a very long time; in fact, never ending right? God is also eternal and infinite, so just as there will be no end in time spent with Him in heaven, there will be no end of worship, no end of learning, no end of growing, no end of discovery, no end of His love. It will not be an eternity of sitting in a stone-walled, stained glass, hard-benched church singing the same hymn over and over God does not want us to share in eternal boredom with Him, but in eternal glory with Him.

Have a good one!

You’re a top bloke giving me all your thoughts, much appreciated. You also have a good one, I’m just off to meet a couple of mates at the pub. Have s good day. Dave.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Is a "command" from an unimaginably powerful being really getting to act from your own free will? I'm not being pedantic but to me if you believe in this god and you know that he "commands" you to love him or face the consequences (eternal damnation) that's equivalent to having an errant girlfriend standing in front of you with a loaded gun saying - "you do love me don't you" - I'd answer "yes my darling" but it certainly wouldn't be of my free will.

That would be your problem since God knows the heart and he can see through that.

I myself don’t have that problem as my love and faith is from the heart.