Who gets saved? Just Christians?

[DogmaHunter]

Hinduism is certainly old. It seems to share the same origins as Greek religion, from before the Indo-European influx into India.

But is it truly polytheistic?

Yes.

It is on the surface, and many uneducated adherents would see it that way

Are hindu priests uneducated?

. But in the dominant school, that of Advaita Vedanta, there is only one God, Brahman -- if "God" is the right word, since the physical universe is illusory and is really part of Brahman (this has been popularised as "there is no spoon"). In fact, there is only Brahman: the self-identity of individual humans is equally illusory, and they are also part of Brahman (this is the meaning of Tat Tvam Asi: तत्त्वमसि).

In the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, someone asks the teacher Yajnavalkya, “How many gods are there?” “Three thousand and three,” the teacher replies. Questioning this, he is told, “There are thirty-three gods.” He asks again, and is told, “There are six.” Yet again, he asks, and receives the reply, “There are only three gods.” Once more he asks, and is told, “One and a half gods.” And when he asks one final time, Yajnavalkya tells him “There is one god.” That is Hinduism.

In some ways, that response echoes Plato's view of Greek polytheism.

Shall we call christianity polytheistic because of the trinity?

 

[Radagast]

Are hindu priests uneducated?

No. But have you actually had a conversation with a Hindu priest? If you know one, get him to explain the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad to you.

Shall we call christianity polytheistic because of the trinity?

Christianity is monotheistic, of course.

But it's clear you have no genuine questions here; you're just trolling. So further conversation has no point.

 

[DogmaHunter]

No. But have you actually had a conversation with a Hindu priest? If you know one, get him to explain the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad to you.

I just told you that I saw show on religion the other day in which a hindu priest was present to represent polytheistic religions. He had no issues with that nore did he feel the need to nuance it at any point. As said, the fact that hinduism is polytheistic was the entire reason he was present on the show.

So I think it's safe to conclude that this Hindu priest considers hinduism to be a polytheistic religion.

If it's okay with you, I'll take the word of a hindu priest over that of a random christian, when it comes to defining hinduism.

Christianity is monotheistic, of course.

Hinduism is polytheistic, off course.

But it's clear you have no genuine questions here; you're just trolling. So further conversation has no point.

It's clear you have no plan on going in on the actual points that were being discussed and instead just attempted to derail the points and when that didn't work, you just resorted to accusing me of trolling.

So further conversation indeed has no point.

 

[Uber Genius]

Here's one of the prime reasons I would never be a believer in Christianity as I was taught it.

1. The only way to salvation and eternal life is through belief in Jesus Christ
2. Therefore all who do not believe in jesus are doomed to eternal damnation
3. Christian doctrine teaches that "innocents" who have not sinned will receive eternal life, babies, unborn children, possibly very young children.
4. Anyone else who has reached adulthood and not embraced, worshipped or believed in Jesus will suffer eternal torment.

Therefore, imagine there is a huge bomb blast in (say) Baghdad (an unfortunately common occurrence) which kills 300 people.

Lets say 30 of them were committed Christians, they get eternal life with god.

There were 30 babies and young children, they get eternal life with god.

There were 240 Muslims and non believers, some of them had lived blameless lives, had followed their god correctly, had done charitable works, had been exemplary citizens, they're in eternal damnation - all of them whereas their children are in eternal salvation.

This is not the actions of a caring loving god, and this is the reason I say that in the event there is a god and an afterlife, it is the same god for everyone, not just one cult, and if there is a judgement it'll be based on how you lived your life not who you happened to worship.

Thoughts?

First of all, salvation is a controversial issue. By that I mean scholars hold a wide variety of views on who gets saved and how.

These include:

All are saved.
Most are saved.
All who believe in their heart and profess Jesus will be saved.
Only those who believe in Jesus and live sanctified lives are saved.

And several variations on those themes.

However the whole consequentialist method seems wrong-headed. Why assume that your innate sense of cosmic justice is well-informed? As products of creation why would we think we know how best to administer justice at any level let alone a cosmic level?

Also we don't want to choose our beliefs based on the consequences of those beliefs, but rather because they represent the real world!

Does the existence of God as described in the Bible best explain the existence of a universe from nothing?

Are objective moral values, the fine-tuning of the universe for life, or the historical fact that cultures have an innate sense of awe at nature best explained by the existence of a personal, timeless, spaceless, immaterial being?

That is how one might approach the question in a philosophical way.

 

[Dave RP]

First of all, salvation is a controversial issue. By that I mean scholars hold a wide variety of views on who gets saved and how.

These include:

All are saved.
Most are saved.
All who believe in their heart and profess Jesus will be saved.
Only those who believe in Jesus and live sanctified lives are saved.

And several variations on those themes.

However the whole consequentialist method seems wrong-headed. Why assume that your innate sense of cosmic justice is well-informed? As products of creation why would we think we know how best to administer justice at any level let alone a cosmic level?

Also we don't want to choose our beliefs based on the consequences of those beliefs, but rather because they represent the real world!

Does the existence of God as described in the Bible best explain the existence of a universe from nothing?

Are objective moral values, the fine-tuning of the universe for life, or the historical fact that cultures have an innate sense of awe at nature best explained by the existence of a personal, timeless, spaceless, immaterial being?

That is how one might approach the question in a philosophical way.

Funny enough I was having the same discussion with my Christian girlfriend last night, her opinion was that Christians who have faith in Jesus will be saved and get eternal life, she said that no one knows what happens to non Christians but she wonders if they just die, no hell just death and eternity is only for the believers.

I told her that in my opinion that goes against the whole concept of a loving god who created everything and I hold onto my thought that IF there is a god and IF it offers eternal life to humanity, then everyone will be treated equally and not just one group who happened to hear the "word" and worship in the the correct manner. We agreed to disagree!

 

[Liza B.]

Here's one of the prime reasons I would never be a believer in Christianity as I was taught it.

1. The only way to salvation and eternal life is through belief in Jesus Christ
2. Therefore all who do not believe in jesus are doomed to eternal damnation
3. Christian doctrine teaches that "innocents" who have not sinned will receive eternal life, babies, unborn children, possibly very young children.
4. Anyone else who has reached adulthood and not embraced, worshipped or believed in Jesus will suffer eternal torment.

Therefore, imagine there is a huge bomb blast in (say) Baghdad (an unfortunately common occurrence) which kills 300 people.

Lets say 30 of them were committed Christians, they get eternal life with god.

There were 30 babies and young children, they get eternal life with god.

There were 240 Muslims and non believers, some of them had lived blameless lives, had followed their god correctly, had done charitable works, had been exemplary citizens, they're in eternal damnation - all of them whereas their children are in eternal salvation.

This is not the actions of a caring loving god, and this is the reason I say that in the event there is a god and an afterlife, it is the same god for everyone, not just one cult, and if there is a judgement it'll be based on how you lived your life not who you happened to worship.

Thoughts?

This view fails to account for how terrifyingly holy God is, and how wide the chasm is between His Holiness and our sinfulness.

I don't mean this to sound flippant, but truly, when you begin to understand that, you understand Christianity.

 

[Dave RP]

This view fails to account for how terrifyingly holy God is, and how wide the chasm is between His Holiness and our sinfulness.

I don't mean this to sound flippant, but truly, when you begin to understand that, you understand Christianity.

Fair enough, there’s a colossal chasm and one that’ll never be breached, that’s for sure!!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Fair enough, there’s a colossal chasm and one that’ll never be breached, that’s for sure!!

I for one wouldn't worship a God who was merely "all loving" ...

 

[Dave RP]

I for one wouldn't worship a God who was merely "all loving" ...

And I wouldn’t worship a god who was so needy that he needed our worship.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is not the actions of a caring loving god

COOL!

A 'man' ? knows more than God ? ...... (sorry, no) ....

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And I wouldn’t worship a god who was so needy that he needed our worship.

Oh, I never said I believe in a God who 'needs' our worship. However, I do see God as having an essence that is something like the nature He created. That is, if we don't pay attention to the actual system of reality in which we humans exist, then nature comes roiling back on us. So, let's just say that God has his own "Global Warming" limits which are a 'genetic expression' of His Holiness, and it's only natural for us to expect consequential reactions from God when we buck against it all.

 

[Dave RP]

Oh, I never said I believe in a God who 'needs' our worship. However, I do see God as having an essence that is something like the nature He created. That is, if we don't pay attention to the actual system of reality in which we humans exist, then nature comes roiling back on us. So, let's just say that God has his own "Global Warming" limits which are a 'genetic expression' of His Holiness, and it's only natural for us to expect consequential reactions from God when we buck against it all.

Perhaps, but doesn't the bible say something like "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD" which implies to me that god requires this level of worship?

 

[jayem]

COOL!

A 'man' ? knows more than God ? ...... (sorry, no) ....

He's not challenging God. He's challenging people who claim there is a God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

He's not challenging God. He's challenging people who claim there is a God.

COOL!
Challenge YAHWEH !
HE is up to whatever y'all got !
(and still, amazing grace, He saves a few people on earth)
Remember, most people never, not ever, listen to Him.
They just don't care to.
So, then, in the end, it's bye bye, NOT American pie, but life.

 

[Dave RP]

COOL!
Challenge YAHWEH !
HE is up to whatever y'all got !
(and still, amazing grace, He saves a few people on earth)
Remember, most people never, not ever, listen to Him.
They just don't care to.
So, then, in the end, it's bye bye, NOT American pie, but life.

In the (in my opinion) unlikely event I get to meet YAHWEH and it exists, and I'm up for judgement, I can assure you that I wouldn't challenge it, I would certainly accept I got it wrong.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In the (in my opinion) unlikely event I get to meet YAHWEH and it exists, and I'm up for judgement, I can assure you that I wouldn't challenge it, I would certainly accept I got it wrong.

Like the foreigners outside Israel, non-Jews, who recognized Jesus on the cross and said truly He is innocent,
you might be closer to the truth than you ever thought you would be.

 

[jayem]

COOL!
Challenge YAHWEH !
HE is up to whatever y'all got !
(and still, amazing grace, He saves a few people on earth)
Remember, most people never, not ever, listen to Him.
They just don't care to.
So, then, in the end, it's bye bye, NOT American pie, but life.

Hey, you and I will be in the same boat when we face Allah.

 

[NobleMouse]

Here's one of the prime reasons I would never be a believer in Christianity as I was taught it.

1. The only way to salvation and eternal life is through belief in Jesus Christ
2. Therefore all who do not believe in jesus are doomed to eternal damnation
3. Christian doctrine teaches that "innocents" who have not sinned will receive eternal life, babies, unborn children, possibly very young children.
4. Anyone else who has reached adulthood and not embraced, worshipped or believed in Jesus will suffer eternal torment.

Therefore, imagine there is a huge bomb blast in (say) Baghdad (an unfortunately common occurrence) which kills 300 people.

Lets say 30 of them were committed Christians, they get eternal life with god.

There were 30 babies and young children, they get eternal life with god.

There were 240 Muslims and non believers, some of them had lived blameless lives, had followed their god correctly, had done charitable works, had been exemplary citizens, they're in eternal damnation - all of them whereas their children are in eternal salvation.

This is not the actions of a caring loving god, and this is the reason I say that in the event there is a god and an afterlife, it is the same god for everyone, not just one cult, and if there is a judgement it'll be based on how you lived your life not who you happened to worship.

Thoughts?

I'm in agreement with @Radagast that the 240 Muslims/non-believers would (probably) spend eternity apart from God. As Radagast indicated, this is based upon God's standard. God is holy and perfect, so if we've even sinned one little sin (just one), we are no longer up to the standard. We're all in the same boat really - just a planet full of sinners. Sin cannot be in the presence of God. Those that have placed their faith and trust in Jesus have had their sin exchanged with His righteousness and go on to eternity with God not on the basis of their life, but on the basis of His life. The penalty for sin is death and all of our sins still had to be paid for (not a free pass), so Jesus died on the cross as the propitiation for these sins.

I want to qualify the statement above, pointing out the "(probably)" as in I don't fully know all 240 would go to hell because only God truly knows the condition of their heart and I cannot. If we assume all 240 intentionally knew of God, His word, His message of salvation; and subsequently intentionally rejected Him, then Yes all 240 would go to hell as this is the unpardonable sin - to reject (blaspheme) the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave RP]

I'm in agreement with @Radagast that the 240 Muslims/non-believers would (probably) spend eternity apart from God. As Radagast indicated, this is based upon God's standard. God is holy and perfect, so if we've even sinned one little sin (just one), we are no longer up to the standard. We're all in the same boat really - just a planet full of sinners. Sin cannot be in the presence of God. Those that have placed their faith and trust in Jesus have had their sin exchanged with His righteousness and go on to eternity with God not on the basis of their life, but on the basis of His life. The penalty for sin is death and all of our sins still had to be paid for (not a free pass), so Jesus died on the cross as the propitiation for these sins.

I want to qualify the statement above, pointing out the "(probably)" as in I don't fully know all 240 would go to hell because only God truly knows the condition of their heart and I cannot. If we assume all 240 intentionally knew of God, His word, His message of salvation; and subsequently intentionally rejected Him, then Yes all 240 would go to hell as this is the unpardonable sin - to reject (blaspheme) the Holy Spirit.

IF (in my opinion a big if) Jesus died for us all, then he died for us all - everyone. I'm an atheist, but I don't "reject" Jesus, I can't reject something I've never seen, heard, felt or touched. If Jesus is going to judge me at the end when he returns (I could say don't hold your breath to that one), I'll say that I didn't "reject" you, I just never knew you - that's entirely different. If Jesus made himself known to the entire world there would be one religion, as it is there are thousands of religions. Just a shred of evidence would help Atheists and other non believers change, just a tiny shred that's all. I don't mean the Bible, that's no more evidence of Jesus that the Koran is of Allah.

 

[NobleMouse]

IF (in my opinion a big if) Jesus died for us all, then he died for us all - everyone. I'm an atheist, but I don't "reject" Jesus, I can't reject something I've never seen, heard, felt or touched. If Jesus is going to judge me at the end when he returns (I could say don't hold your breath to that one), I'll say that I didn't "reject" you, I just never knew you - that's entirely different. If Jesus made himself known to the entire world there would be one religion, as it is there are thousands of religions. Just a shred of evidence would help Atheists and other non believers change, just a tiny shred that's all. I don't mean the Bible, that's no more evidence of Jesus that the Koran is of Allah.

Thanks for your reply! If I might ask... can you tell me how, as an atheist, you have accepted (not rejected) Jesus - see Matthew 7:21-23. It may be perhaps you just think more agnostically towards the idea of the God of the Christian Bible.

Would there really be one world religion if the whole world knew the truth? Do all people want to live under the authority of a god or would some not say life would be more enjoyable just doing the things they enjoy and not having to worry about some kind of eternal consequence for their actions in this life?

Everyone has their own qualifiers of what they consider sufficient evidence - just a 'shred' as you have put it. If you are willing to entertain, would you tell me what are your qualifiers? Admittedly, this can difficult to pin down for anyone as we all make objective/subjective judgments that divide what we perceive as true/false. Right now, you have reason(s) why you do not believe any god exists, or at least not the God of the Bible, what are those reason(s)?