Who gets saved? Just Christians?

[Dave RP]

That would be your problem since God knows the heart and he can see through that.

I myself don’t have that problem as my love and faith is from the heart.

Ok. Sorry if I offended.

 

[NobleMouse]

You’re a top bloke giving me all your thoughts, much appreciated. You also have a good one, I’m just off to meet a couple of mates at the pub. Have s good day. Dave.

Ahhh, the pubs, steak and kidney pie, fish and chips, it all brings me back....

 

[Oncedeceived]

Thank you for the well-thought responses and the time you have taken to chat with me on the subject - it is sincerely appreciated! From your responses, I would take it that your views toward religion and the idea of a god are based on scientific knowledge, logic, and reason and so I will try to stay within these areas. As you know, there is a degree of faith required in ascribing to any belief so I do put that caveat out there. Also, what I might consider sound logic/reason/evidence I do understand that this is subjective and interpretive and so you may not view as equally compelling.


I get the sense here that you're not necessarily speaking of 'sight' visibility (maybe this is the case, let me know if so), but more so as being overtly apparent (all facts point to the conclusion of a creator existing and that this creator is the one referenced in the Christian Bible). I believe you are correct that there may be hundreds or even thousands of religions in the world today. If there was less variety, more unification of a central, common belief/faith, you would find it more compelling.

Having eluded to this before, a common condition of all people is to be free from under the authority of another (not just talking about God here, even under the authority of another person). Because of this inherent condition, there is what I'd call a bias against the idea of a God. The fact that of the now ~7 billion people on the planet, ~6 billion believe in some supreme being is really counterintuitive to the
desire to be free. Why do all these people want to be accountable to some higher, supernatural power... do all of these people have some form of schizophrenia? Well, certainly not and so I conclude that from this fact, there is an established possibility of a higher power. Why so many variations though? Well, back to the common condition where all want to be free from under the authority of another, people have in fact re-defined what they want their god and their religion to be about. Some have a god that is indignant and is never satisfied, others have a god, gods, or divine spirits that is aloof and disinterested, others that have a loving god, and so on... Woven throughout all of these may be (to varying degrees) some truth. In spite of many false religions, this would not take away that truth and a true God (or gods) may exist and is indicative to the effect.

While many religions exist, you may be surprised to know that the two dominant religions (Christianity and Islam) represent about half of the world's population and both contain the books penned by Moses and both recognize Jesus (with different views on Him). When we look beyond the number of religions, while there are some stark contrasts between Christianity and Islam, there are also many common threads of truth between the two and so there may be more of a unified truth than at first blush.


Natural law, cause and effect - a big bang and what sprang forth is the universe. While there are differences in opinion on the topic of origins within Christian circles in terms of how and when God created everything, you may be interested to know that many Christians believe the big bang is the mechanism God used to create the universe (as the Bible puts it, "He stretched out the heavens"). This is, I think, where what I find compelling and convincing that you may not - that is okay. Logically speaking, only nothing can come from nothing. If the big bang did happen and all the physical matter of the universe was compressed into an area the size of a single particle, even that single particle could not have come from nowhere. Maybe it just always existed? Doubtfully, that would represent eternity past relative to today, making today eternity future relative to the past. We cannot arrive at the present from eternity past because there is an infinite amount of time between eternity past and the present. We are; however, here in the present and so there was a finite beginning and a finite amount of matter that did not come from nowhere--this is consistent with what we are told in the Bible. Still, not definitive that God exists and that Christianity is the one true religion, but it does add to the plausibility that this may be true.

Now, does the universe look 'created'? This is subjective. To me, if all the matter had to exist in a tiny particle that rapidly expanded (some scientists theorize the big bang expanded faster than the speed of light) - this is like a major explosion, right? I mean, nothing like we've ever seen or could imagine - yet we see countless formed stars, planets, moons, etc... with our own planet so finely tuned as to support life with seasons, an atmosphere, etc... Seems there is an Arabian proverb that goes something like, "All sunshine makes a desert" and so without seasons, our planet would not be very habitable. To me this feels intentional and not just the result of random chance. Going back to nothing comes from nothing, as I ponder all of the information coded into the DNA of all life (not to mention the DNA mechanisms that are needed to be able to read the DNA coding itself), the statistical probability of 'intelligence' just showing up from nowhere to consistently replicate these billions of codes that not only operate linearly, but also 3-dimensionally with an added 4th dimension of time in that our DNA actually changes with time/events - allowing our bodies to adjust to changing conditions... well is pretty much as close to 0 (zero) as can be - if this is all the result of random chance. No more can intelligence come from nothing than all the matter in the universe come from nothing.


The beginning sentences here are very reminiscent of Psalm 8:4. There are definitely some pretty audacious claims in the Christian Bible. I do not find them less reasonable; however, than the idea of believing something can come from nothing and that (to me) the overwhelming evidence of design of the universe and our DNA points to a designer. Further, if (and it's a big IF) all things in the universe solely happen through natural law, where do natural laws come from without a law giver? There are numerous verses from the Bible that support the idea that God holds all things together (what you and I would call natural law):
13 Bible verses about God Sustaining Creation
Still perhaps not definitive that God exists and Christianity is the one true religion, but I'm just staking a few truths along the way here that point to it's possibility.

Is Jesus the way, the truth, and the life and no man will come to the Father, except through Him? Well, this is what He claimed (that He is God). This is where the major religions have division. Many find issue with the idea of only one way to heaven, many. How can a loving God insist that we accept Jesus with the consequence being eternal punishment in hell, separated from God even though by anyone's standard they are good people, doing good things? I think this, to an extent, depends on our perspective an how we see ourselves. Worth asking yourself is: Am I a good person? If so by whose standards, yours or God's? Have you ever sinned? The Bible says all have sinned and fall short of God's standard, all is pretty all-inclusive. God is perfect and holy and will not allow the presence of sin in His kingdom (if He did, He would not be perfect and holy, let alone righteous or just). If all this is true about God and a god exists, and this God is the God of the Christian Bible (which so far there have been some good indicators it may be) then none of us meet the standard of going to heaven. As you know, there is more to the story though. Unlike all others, Jesus lived a perfect life (He is the Son of God) and by accepting Him as our Lord and Savior, our unrighteousness is exchanged for His righteousness and our past/present/future sins are all forgiven. There still remains the unsettled matter; however, that there is a penalty for sin - no getting around it - it is death. And so, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. As was predicted by scripture long before His birth, after 3 days Jesus rose from the grave, and was observed by hundreds of eye witnesses.

Worth calling out here is that if God does not exist, you and I have no basis for having issue with the actions of others. Without moral law (which we all have), as could only be given by a moral law giver, everyone is free to do as they please so long as they feel it is the 'right' thing to do or at least that their actions are justified. If someone goes on a shooting rampage or flies a couple of 767's into tall skyscrapers, who are we to judge or wage war against such actions? Instead, we should just look at this with an attitude of indifference and move on - hey it wasn't the first time and it won't be the last time. But it doesn't work that way does it - these human actions "has caused, and still does cause, untold misery around the world." While God is a loving God, He is also a God of justice and He will carry out judgment (rightfully so) on those who unrepentantly violate His commandments. All 10 commandments can be broken, and all 10 can be forgiven - all of them. For the gunman, the terrorist, the murderr, adulterer, the thief, the liar, idolater, and slanderer there is grace and forgiveness made available through Jesus Christ. Seems less dogmatic and unfair when it is put into perspective.


Likewise, I respect your views and position on the topic as well sir. I do want to clarify to your opening statements of "I have neither accepted nor rejected Jesus, I do not believe that Jesus was divine, the 'son of God'" is a rejection of who Jesus claimed to be (that He is not divine), and so this is a rejection of Him. I hope to hear back from you soon, have a good day - it's almost the weekend!

This is an amazing post, one of the best I've seen in a long time. I realize that you probably won't feel "right" about my compliment as I think you are one that will give all glory to God.

 

[Dave RP]

This is an amazing post, one of the best I've seen in a long time. I realize that you probably won't feel "right" about my compliment as I think you are one that will give all glory to God.

Yes it was an excellent piece.

Personally I still get stuck at "who or what made god", then why would such an incredibly powerful and awesome being care about us little humans awash in the vastness of space.

As to why so many cultures have a belief in deities, I think it's because we are an inquisitive animal and looking around us we seek answers, in the absence of science gods were invented and this belief was passed down to children who in turn passed it on. This faith would change through contact with other cultures, conquest or the like.

The Bible is a book of fables and stories, the old testament so full of holes and bizarre stories that it cannot be taken literally, I see nothing in it which appears in any way divinely inspired.

I am aware that Islam also recognises Christ as a very important prophet and believes he will return in the end time, quite why some in Islam see Christians as the enemy is beyond my comprehension, but that's what dogma and certainty can do to people.

As science finds out more about the universe most people of faith accept new definitions of what their god did, including getting to the point of saying god stated the universe in a big bang, and set the laws of physics so we ended up being here. That's a very hands off god, not the one of the bible.

The universe appears designed because we are here to look at it, maybe it was just pure luck and there have been billions of failed universes, who knows. This planet is ideal for life to evolve, ergo it evolved here. It couldn't have evolved on Pluto or Mercury because the planet wasn't suitable. There may be thousands of other habitable planets in amongst the billions and billions of stars, and some of them may have beings pondering the same questions, we don't know and may never know but to believe that we are in some way "special" in the vastness of the cosmos is, in my opinion, short sighted and arrogant.

As for why we behave in a moral way, why murder, rape, theft etc. are not allowed in ALL societies on earth, for me that's evolution at work. We all have the best chance of surviving and passing on our genes if we abide by rules which give us the chance of living with our families safely. This doesn't require a god.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes it was an excellent piece.

I appreciate that you can appreciate the post. I must add that I also admire when someone such as you having such differing views allows for a cordial and pleasant dialog.

Personally I still get stuck at "who or what made god", then why would such an incredibly powerful and awesome being care about us little humans awash in the vastness of space.

I hope that NobleMouse will excuse my busting in on the two of you; I also hope that my input maybe while not as articulate or informative as his that I might be another voice in unison with his for our reasoning in God being the Christian God.

"Who" and "What" made God? We have come a long way in determining how the cause and effect of our universe works; knowing that for most if not all of the universe has this cause and effect scenario we tend to think that if God exists He must then have a cause. It is in fact what we do know about our universe that gives rise to the necessity of "something" needing to exist infinitely. That is why we have seen Scientists "looking" for infinite universes and the like. So whether we have God who created this universe of cause and affect or infinite universes, to get our universe we need something or "Someone" to have caused it. It is certain that something powerful and awesome must have had a hand at bringing about this magnificent universe with all its complexity and order. As far as this powerful and awesome God (which we agree He would have to be very powerful and awesome) would care about us little humans awash in the vastness of space; it is this vastness and the ability to be aware of its great vastness that points in my humble opinion to a caring and loving God. We live in the safest part of our known universe, if we lived anywhere else we would be bombarded with "stuff" from the universe. We also live in a position that makes viewing and learning about the universe possible. The vastness itself provides what is needed for life even to exist here. The reason for caring for us humans is that He created us and wants us to be intelligent and commune with us for an eternity. He created us to love and to share Himself and all things with us. We have children and if it is for the "right" reason it is to love them and to share all things with them.

As to why so many cultures have a belief in deities, I think it's because we are an inquisitive animal and looking around us we seek answers, in the absence of science gods were invented and this belief was passed down to children who in turn passed it on. This faith would change through contact with other cultures, conquest or the like.

Yes, this is an argument that was valid to me at one time as well, so I understand your position. In the Bible it says that God created us with this need to know God, that explains the Christian side of things and of course yours is a good example of the other position. I think what NobleMouse said has bearing on this...no one likes authority over them and so the changes more than contact with other cultures it is due to this wish not to be submissive to God. I feel that movies and books have fed into this theory that because earlier mankind didn't understand nature, they attributed it a god. These depict early humans cowering and frightened by nature and providing sacrifices to placate this god. Where did such a concept arise? There were no powerful and awesome beings that would be held as an example for such a concept I do believe. So why a god? It seems that God and needing to please Him began with early man right away...the need for God?

The Bible is a book of fables and stories, the old testament so full of holes and bizarre stories that it cannot be taken literally, I see nothing in it which appears in any way divinely inspired.

I find that an unbeliever has a lack when it comes to the Bible and it has nothing to do with intelligence or comprehension. It has to do with spirit within. The holes and bizarre stories carry so many different facets that to someone without the spirit within to guide and instruct they do seem senseless and without merit. It also takes a full scope of the Bible to see the interweaving of message which by the way is composed of 66 books by 40 different writers over 1500 years, yet it has one consistent story line running all the way through.

I am aware that Islam also recognises Christ as a very important prophet and believes he will return in the end time, quite why some in Islam see Christians as the enemy is beyond my comprehension, but that's what dogma and certainty can do to people.

Without going into Islam and its beginnings the Quran actually sees Jesus completely differently than the Bible.

As science finds out more about the universe most people of faith accept new definitions of what their god did, including getting to the point of saying god stated the universe in a big bang, and set the laws of physics so we ended up being here. That's a very hands off god, not the one of the bible.

I respectfully disagree, at least to the hands off God. If you mean that God just wound things up and let them go I also disagree. Science began as research into how God did do things. It was only fairly recently that it became so secular.

The universe appears designed because we are here to look at it, maybe it was just pure luck and there have been billions of failed universes, who knows.

When we take in consideration all the planets in our solar system and the fact that life as we know it could not exist and life of any kind seems vastly unlikely and that ours alone "appears" to be designed rather points to actual design IMHO. If the universe had no appearance of design you can imagine how that would better fit a universe unplanned or designed. Your guess of pure luck is rather unlikely considering how many things actually had to be present to evolve life in first place which makes luck a rather minuscule probability. Billions of failed universes does nothing to garner the probability that the laws of physics and chemistry found here would come about to evolve life in one of those billions. So the appearance of design has nothing to do with the fact that we are here to look at it and determine it appears designed, but that it appears to be designed because it doesn't appear to be just by chance. There well be life and maybe life different from us on some far off and separate universe but that does nothing to explain this one. While it could be some fluke of nature that by chance this universe has all the right necessities to allow life, it doesn't "appear" that way.

This planet is ideal for life to evolve, ergo it evolved here. It couldn't have evolved on Pluto or Mercury because the planet wasn't suitable. There may be thousands of other habitable planets in amongst the billions and billions of stars, and some of them may have beings pondering the same questions, we don't know and may never know but to believe that we are in some way "special" in the vastness of the cosmos is, in my opinion, short sighted and arrogant.

I've never understood this arrogance that is said to be in claiming that we are special by living on this planet. How is that arrogant when we realize that life as we know it could not happen anywhere else in our universe that we have found? There could be other habitable planets and some may like you say that ponder the same questions but would they be any less special in their own universe?

As for why we behave in a moral way, why murder, rape, theft etc. are not allowed in ALL societies on earth, for me that's evolution at work. We all have the best chance of surviving and passing on our genes if we abide by rules which give us the chance of living with our families safely. This doesn't require a god.

It is so refreshing to see someone who agrees there is a standard of morality, even if you do not agree that standard is due to God. The evolution of morality is one that I just can't buy into. If your family member and another tribes family member were about to be eaten by a Saber tooth tiger it is more advantageous to save your family member and let the other tribes member be dinner for the tiger. This is true in so many scenarios.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Personally I still get stuck at "who or what made god", then why would such an incredibly powerful and awesome being care about us little humans awash in the vastness of space.

As to why so many cultures have a belief in deities, I think it's because we are an inquisitive animal and looking around us we seek answers, in the absence of science gods were invented and this belief was passed down to children who in turn passed it on. This faith would change through contact with other cultures, conquest or the like.

The Bible is a book of fables and stories, the old testament so full of holes and bizarre stories that it cannot be taken literally, I see nothing in it which appears in any way divinely inspired.

I am aware that Islam also recognises Christ as a very important prophet and believes he will return in the end time, quite why some in Islam see Christians as the enemy is beyond my comprehension, but that's what dogma and certainty can do to people.

As science finds out more about the universe most people of faith accept new definitions of what their god did, including getting to the point of saying god stated the universe in a big bang, and set the laws of physics so we ended up being here. That's a very hands off god, not the one of the bible.

The universe appears designed because we are here to look at it, maybe it was just pure luck and there have been billions of failed universes, who knows. This planet is ideal for life to evolve, ergo it evolved here. It couldn't have evolved on Pluto or Mercury because the planet wasn't suitable. There may be thousands of other habitable planets in amongst the billions and billions of stars, and some of them may have beings pondering the same questions, we don't know and may never know but to believe that we are in so
.

as far as your point about why would a powerful God care about us, I look T one of the reoccurring themes of the Bible and that is the family unit.

The same could be said for human beings. After giving birth why do we care about babies, raise them, feed them, spend money on them? Love my friend

God has shown and told us of Hos great love for us