Who gets cast into the everlasting lake of fire?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nope....... Revelation is not global wide as zionist futurists/dispensationalist view.

Do you mean this, etc, as if your "view" is somehow correct ?? I don't think so.

It is or seems hard or difficult to nail down though, in some or many threads/ posts/ , since the ones you quote as references appear to be not so good sources, and for reasons below too.

I don't know what the zionist futurists/ dispensationalist view is either, and it doesn't matter. If 'they' post something in error, it will be revealed too.

I don't even really know what your own view is - your posts when trying to support some <strange> doctrine (for years?) appear to me "complicated", convoluted, not in line with all Scripture,

and not simple , not clear, nor apparently correct all the time, so I don't try to figure them out. Especially when I checked out the sources you 'claim', if they cannot be verified true... yet you appear to count on them ? It has become an exercise in futility for me to go chasing them down - so I stopped.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't even really know what your own view is - your posts when trying to support some <strange> doctrine (for years?) appear to me "complicated", convoluted, not in line with all Scripture,

and not simple , not clear, nor apparently correct all the time, so I don't try to figure them out. Especially when I checked out the sources you 'claim', if they cannot be verified true... yet you appear to count on them ? It has become an exercise in futility for me to go chasing them down - so I stopped.

My view is simple
70AD Jerusalem and it's Temple/Sanctuary/Priesthood is in Revelation...........

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[Court of Priests/Lavar/Altar of Sacrifice] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854> and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Gentiles/Nations.
And the holy City they shall be treading<3961>forty two months. [Luke 21:24]

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY

Which Sanctuary and Court are being measured in Revelation 11

1. *
   1st century Herod's Temple/Sanctuary
   3 vote(s)
   50.0%
2. A future Jewish Temple/Sanctuary
   1 vote(s)
   16.7%
3. Both
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. None of the above
   1 vote(s)
   16.7%
5. I don't know right now
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
6. I have never thought about it
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
7. Other
   1 vote(s)
   16.7%

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

My view is simple
70AD Jerusalem and it's Temple/Sanctuary/Priesthood is in Revelation...........

(from memory for a moment here (and I have to go, losing internet here until tomorrow after noon)...)


I don't think anyone has disputed 70AD Jerusalem and it's Temple/Sanctuary/Priesthood is in Revelation...

nor is that where the errors are , in believing that.

Yahuweh Willing, to be continued..... perhaps tomorrow.... Yahuweh knows....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

(from memory for a moment here (and I have to go, losing internet here until tomorrow after noon)...

I don't think anyone has disputed 70AD Jerusalem and it's Temple/Sanctuary/Priesthood is in Revelation...

nor is that where the errors are , in believing that.
Yahuweh Willing, to be continued..... perhaps tomorrow.... Yahuweh knows....

There are many who have done exactly that
If that is indeed 70AD Jerusalem, then those in Reve 14:11 and the City in Reve 19:3 must be the 1st century Jews and City.

Is that a literal smoke coming up from the City into the ages of the ages?

Reve 19:3 "The smoke of the tormenting them/Her ascending Ages of the Ages"

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having/ecousin <2192> (5719) Rest/anapausin <372> day and night [Matt 11:29/Hebrew 4:3]

Revelation 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover
Finding it impossible to restrain the impetuosity and cruelty of his soldiers, the Commander in chief proceeded, with some of his superior officers, to take a survey of those parts of the edifice which were still uninjured by the conflagration.,,,,,,,,,,,,Meanwhile the Temple continued burning, until at length, vast as was its size, the flames completely enveloped the, whole building ; which, from the extent of the conflagration, impressed the distant spectator with an idea that the whole city was now on fire. The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe. The Roman legions made the most horrid outcries ; the rebels, finding themselves exposed to the fury of both fire and sword, screamed dreadfully ; while the unhappy people who were pent up between the enemy and the flames, deplored their situation in the most pitiable complaints. Those on the hill and those in the city seemed mutually to return the groans of each other. Such as were expiring through famine, were revived by this hideous scene, and seemed to acquire new spirits to deplore their misfortunes.

The lamentations from the city wore re-echoed from the adjacent mountains, and places beyond Jordan.
The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations, as one large body of fire. The blood of the sufferers flowed in proportion to the rage of this de structive element ; and the number of the slain exceeded all calculation. The ground could not be seen for the dead bodies, over which the Romans trampled in pursuit of the fugitives ; while the crackling noise of the devouring flames mingled with the clamor of arms, the groans of the dying and the shrieks of despair, augmented the tremendous horror of a scene, to which the pages of history can furnish no parallel.

Revelation 18:10 From afar<3113> having stood because of the fear of the tormenting<929> of Her saying
"Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City!
That to one hour came the judging<2920> of Thee.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Okay, unbelievers include believers ... thanks for the info!

What I think is meant by belief in that passage is the same as 'Help my unbelief'. I suffer from it. It's residual self-reliance, ingrained doubt, grave-clothes, vetigial aspects of our fallen nature, the process of sanctification, letting go of our resistance to submit entirely to His will. Can you say that you are entirely sanctified? Of course not, so I hope I for one won't be too proud to admit my dire need for cleansing and healing.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There are many who have done exactly that
If that is indeed 70AD Jerusalem, them those in Reve 14:11 and the City in Reve 19:3 must be the 1st century Jews and City.

No.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
There are many who have done exactly that
If that is indeed 70AD Jerusalem, them those in Reve 14:11 and the City in Reve 19:3 must be the 1st century Jews and City.

No.

Why do you say no.
Btw, check out my 70ad Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 thread.
What would "gehenna" mean to the 1st century Jews.........

Has anyone studied on Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9 concerning the gehenna of fire where he worn doesn't die and fire isn't quenched?

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Mark 9:43 `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to be entering into the life, than having the two hands to go away to the gehenna, to the fire--the unquenchable-- 44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45 `And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire--the unquenchable-- 46 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire-- 48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
============================
How do others view these videos on the gehenna and worm does no die.

[/quote]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why do you say no.

Because of the apparent errors, whether they are assumptions, conclusions, or other willful or unwillful errors.

Btw, check out my 70ad Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 thread.

No.

What would "gehenna" mean to the 1st century Jews.........

Use a Bible Dictionary (or several of them, to be sure) .

Some or many of them may well be in error.

Or ask a 1st century Jew ? (some day) Or did a 1st century Jew record what "gehenna" meant to 1st century Jews ?

< shrugs > Does anyone know for sure today, without contradiction of any part of Scripture, in perfect Harmony with all of God's Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus, unadulterated by false teachings and false traditions ?!

 

[Der Alte]

Or ask a 1st century Jew ? (some day) Or did a 1st century Jew record what "gehenna" meant to 1st century Jews ?
< shrugs > Does anyone know for sure today, without contradiction of any part of Scripture, in perfect Harmony with all of God's Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus, unadulterated by false teachings and false traditions ?!

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
_ _ _ _ _ _
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
_ _ _ _ _ _
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
= = = = = = = = =
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
= = = = = = = =
…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

= = = = = = = = =

Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones, and a detailed multidisciplinary joint study of the debris was carried out.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem​

​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

footnote (to remember?): some or all unknown or known sources may not be reliable ....

 

[FineLinen]

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
​

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"NOT devoting yourselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth."

 

[FineLinen]

Jewish Myths/ Fables= muthos=

Kept secret/ be dumb: from muo.

Used of profane fables.

Contrasted with alethesia/ truth.

"NOT devoting yourselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

?? NOT devoting yourself??? to "Myths and ... turn away from the truth" includes first and foremost here: Universalism (i.e. profane fables/ stories/ deceptions).

Why would anyone devote themselves to so many threads and posts devoted to that myth/ heresy?!

 

[Der Alte]

***

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
..."NOT devoting yourselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth."

This is a nice jejune, evasive cop-out which ignores/avoids all the points I mentioned.
If anything in my post consisted of Jewish myths, turned away from the truth etc. as you imply why didn't Jesus correct and/or contradict the Jewish belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which they called both Ge Hinnom/gehenna and Sheol/hades?
Why did what Jesus taught about the fate of the wicked/unrighteous mirror what the Jews of Jesus' day taught as I demonstrated in my post which you probably didn't even read.

 

[Der Alte]

footnote (to remember?): some or all unknown or known sources may not be reliable ....

This post immediately follows my post #389, above. Does this reply refer to my post?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This post immediately follows my post #389, above. Does this reply refer to my post?

Actually, it refers to all sources, I think...... as written in Scripture - test everything BEFORE accepting it.

 

[FineLinen]

This is a nice jejune, evasive cop-out which ignores/avoids all the points I mentioned.

You will never grasp how extensive your wonderful posts have enhanced us. Much thanks.

Jewish Myths/ Fables= muthos=

Kept secret/ be dumb: from muo.

Used of profane fables.

Contrasted with alethesia/ truth.

"NOT devoting yourselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth."

 

[FineLinen]

You will never grasp how extensive your wonderful posts have enhanced us. Much thanks.

Jewish Myths/ Fables= muthos=

Kept secret/ be dumb: from muo.

Used of profane fables.

Contrasted with alethesia/ truth.

"NOT devoting yourselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth."

"No, there is no escape. There is no heaven with a little of hell in it--no plan to retain this or that of the devil in our hearts or our pockets. Out Satan must go, every hair and feather!" -George MacDonald